How big is Smaug? Pathfinder measurements of course.

From the movie. I say Colossal, but maybe even bigger. What do you think?

Since a lot of that size is Neck/Tail/Wings (which would be accounted for by reach), I think Colossal is large enough.

Still that dude is enormous. Frikin' enormous...

From a site where a guy did the math:
"Smaug is more than 60 metres long, and has a wingspan well in excess of 50 metres"

Source:
http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/05/11/71530-analysis-just-how-big-is-j acksons-smaug/

60 metres is about 200 feet. Yeah, a colossal dragon from 3E player's handbook was 72 feet tall. Smaug is bigger then colossal.

And just think, he's not nearly so large as Ancalagon the Black.

60 metres is about 200 feet. Yeah, a colossal dragon from 3E player's handbook was 72 feet tall. Smaug is bigger then colossal.

How much of that is neck and tail (in either case)?

I don't know if Paizo's Colossal is a different size, but in 3.5:
"A Colossal creature is typically 64 feet or more in height or length and weighs 250,000 pounds or more."

Per Weta Digital’s VFX supervisor Joe Letteri: "He’s huge, twice as big as a 747."

From the Boeing website:

Basic Dimensions
Wing Span: 195 ft 8 in (59.6 m)
Overall Length: 231 ft 10.2 in (70.6 m)
Tail Height: 63 ft 5 in (19.3 m)
Interior Cabin Width: 20 ft (6.1 m)

Neat image comparing one (a 747, not a Dragon) to the ISS:
http://www.daviddarling.info/images/ISS_747_comparison.gif

72 feet was when he was sitting on his hind legs if I recall the picture. So that means neck and back. Which leaves tail, which we can safely say might be another 40-ish feet.
So, a colossal red dragon would be around 110 feet long.
Smaug is 200.

And just think, he's not nearly so large as Ancalagon the Black.

There's a discussion about how big that Drake is too:

Thanks for the link. Good stuff.

Heh. They mentioned him as perhaps dwarfing Godzilla in size.

Of course, Millennium Godzilla survived something rivaling the power of Earendil, the Silmaril and Vingilot: They dropped a black hole on him and he walked away. Pretty damned hyper-mythical, too, if'n you ask me.

You're welcome! I wondered the same question as the OP, which is how I came across the links.

I also found another atempt to quanitfy Smaug's size:
http://thorinoakenshield.net/2013/12/24/the-anatomy-of-smaug/

The math is way down in the comments section but the article about the biology of Dragons is quite fascinating.

CGI always has problems with consistency of scale; notice how Jackson's King Kong's size seems to change randomly, even within the same scene sometimes. So maybe Smaug varies from Gargantuan to Ultracolossal, depending on how he's drawn in.

He is as big as my Kaladrax if you go by most of the descriptions I remember. I think that would be a good stand-in mini for him anyway....As to what size category...RFB(really frickin' big) is what I would go with and make one up that is bigger than the standard sizes for this legend.
If you have an epic-sized critter you should give it whatever is required to make him epic.

Cheap discounted two legged dragons.... He's a dragon not a wyvern!

Four legs good! Two legs bad!

I too was disappointed, but Vermithrax Perjorative was also "bat-legged", so I can overlook it.

The 3e Draconomicon invented the Colossal Plus size category for just this sort of situation.

The 3e Draconomicon invented the Colossal Plus size category for just this sort of situation.

I always house-ruled this size as being called "Titanic" from the template in the 3E Monster Manual 2, because, dudes, there is no way that friggin' toad is only Colossal*.

But I remember being both happy and sad that Colossal+ existed. Happy because it allowed me ridiculously large creatures, and sad because it was called "Colossal+" (or "Colossal Plus - the "+" mark might have only been in that one magazine that talked about Time Dragons or something, my memories aren't too clear right now... as I house ruled it.)

* Note: it may, in fact, be colossal. I haven't really done the math. But that was my impression upon looking at it. Similarly some of the Massive creatures in the Epic Handbook just look way too big for Colossal - like, ironically, the Colossi...

The 3e Draconomicon invented the Colossal Plus size category for just this sort of situation.

Bring it!!! Aint skeert!!!!!

Here is a chart that does a size comparison of some famous dragons. The chart comes as a result of this article on IO9. My only complaint is that Vermithrax Perjorative is not included, but otherwise very enlightening.

My only complaint is that Vermithrax Perjorative is not included...

Vermithrax is still the greatest dragon ever put on film, Smaug notwithstanding.

The treasure horde is massive. Gold in great hall filled with coins and other loot looks about the volume of the great pyramid (88,000,000 cubic feet).
In d&d terms I would say 400gp/cubic feet. 35,200,000,000gp with arkenstone worth another 1/14th of previous total.

Arkenstone(2,707,692,308gp)
By comparison 1/10th lb diamond worth 10,000gp. If Arkenstone were a diamond it would need to be in excess of twelve tons.

The name given to ships bigger than Colossal in (I think) the Spelljammer 3.0 game was Awesome size. I have always considered that appropriate.

Well kaiju are colossal, so he would be too in Pathfinder terms.

Thanks for the link. Good stuff.

Heh. They mentioned him as perhaps dwarfing Godzilla in size.

Godzilla's incarnations ranged between 50 to 100 meters tall, thats head to toe, and not counting the tail in, so I woldn't think Smaug quite owns up to that.

Of course, Millennium Godzilla survived something rivaling the power of Earendil, the Silmaril and Vingilot: They dropped a black hole on him and he walked away. Pretty damned hyper-mythical, too, if'n you ask me.

To be fair it was a pretty pathetic black hole, considering the surrounding landscape still had recognizable features afterwards.

Godzilla doesnt have a treasure hoard unless you agree all your stuff is his...

To be fair it was a pretty pathetic black hole, considering the surrounding landscape still had recognizable features afterwards.

"Pathetic black hole." Now there's a phrase you don't hear often. :)

Threeshades wrote:

To be fair it was a pretty pathetic black hole, considering the surrounding landscape still had recognizable features afterwards.

"Pathetic black hole." Now there's a phrase you don't hear often. :)

Meh...a singularity is a moment of change in possibility - like that moment the match is ignited. A black hole is the smoke from the lit match irrespective of having lit the match.

Godzilla's incarnations ranged between 50 to 100 meters tall, thats head to toe, and not counting the tail in, so I woldn't think Smaug quite owns up to that.

Oh yes he does. His wingspan alone is enormous. At least 2 Boeing 747s if not more.

The measurements here mentioned don't really seem to add up to what I've seen in the movie. Sure he is big but saying that he's the same size or even bigger than Godzilla is a a bit of an exaggeration. Even if he really is over 200 feet long I can still make a dragon that's even longer than that by taking the sea serpent and applying the giant template and half dragon template to make it well over 300 feet long, all while still occupying a 30-ft square and only CR 15.

Your point being?

Jaelithe wrote:

Threeshades wrote:

To be fair it was a pretty pathetic black hole, considering the surrounding landscape still had recognizable features afterwards.

"Pathetic black hole." Now there's a phrase you don't hear often. :)

Meh...a singularity is a moment of change in possibility - like that moment the match is ignited. A black hole is the smoke from the lit match irrespective of having lit the match.

Godzilla survived because he set the fire you used to light the match with and then blew out the fire before you could use it to light the match.

Whatever. He survived a black hole. That's the story, and I liked it. :)

yellowdingo wrote:

Jaelithe wrote:

Threeshades wrote:

To be fair it was a pretty pathetic black hole, considering the surrounding landscape still had recognizable features afterwards.

"Pathetic black hole." Now there's a phrase you don't hear often. :)

Meh...a singularity is a moment of change in possibility - like that moment the match is ignited. A black hole is the smoke from the lit match irrespective of having lit the match.

Godzilla survived because he set the fire you used to light the match with and then blew out the fire before you could use it to light the match.

Whatever. He survived a black hole. That's the story, and I liked it. :)

Any country prepared to use a black hole to exterminate life is inherently 'nuke them from orbit, its the only way to be sure' evil.

Jaelithe wrote:

yellowdingo wrote:

Jaelithe wrote:

Threeshades wrote:

To be fair it was a pretty pathetic black hole, considering the surrounding landscape still had recognizable features afterwards.

"Pathetic black hole." Now there's a phrase you don't hear often. :)

Meh...a singularity is a moment of change in possibility - like that moment the match is ignited. A black hole is the smoke from the lit match irrespective of having lit the match.

Godzilla survived because he set the fire you used to light the match with and then blew out the fire before you could use it to light the match.

Whatever. He survived a black hole. That's the story, and I liked it. :)

Any country prepared to use a black hole to exterminate life is inherently 'nuke them from orbit, its the only way to be sure' evil.

Maybe that's why they deserve a Godzilla. :)

And when Hicks suggested that, I really didn't think it was evil. Ruthless, maybe, but not evil.

Threeshades wrote:

Godzilla's incarnations ranged between 50 to 100 meters tall, thats head to toe, and not counting the tail in, so I woldn't think Smaug quite owns up to that.

Oh yes he does. His wingspan alone is enormous. At least 2 Boeing 747s if not more.

That's still only 129.2 m wing span and looking at footage of him flying that puts him at no more than 100 meters length nose to tail tip and keeping in mind that, relatively speaking smaug is a noodle, he is is pretty small compared to the big lump that is godzilla, who is not only a big chunk of meat but also also adds at least again as much tail length to his 100 meters height.

Your point being?

that he isn't bigger than colossal and a 30-ft square or smaller can work just fine. There isn't a size greater colossal anyway.

There should be. Plus, not everything can be shoehorned into rules.

In Desolation there is a full on shot of Thorin standing on the snout of Smaug. Take that picture and use Thorin as a yard stick to see how long Smaug is (x-Thorin's long). Ian McKellan is 5'11" (1.8 meters) tall. Find a picture of Thorin and Gandalf next to each other and you can figure how tall Thorin is. Take that figure times x-Thorin and you have the length of Smaug.

There should be. Plus, not everything can be shoehorned into rules.

colossal creatures can have a bigger space than 30 feet, not that smaug qualifies for it. As for shoehorning, you can convert pretty much anything and make it work if someone tries to. I don't know why it would be shoehorning smaug if you converted him. He's a perfect example of a monster that can easily be statted out.

Already is. Ancient wyrm red dragon. Voila.

Already is. Ancient wyrm red dragon. Voila.

Except that Smaug the Golden isn't colored red. So the stats don't fit. <evil grin>

He's reddish golden. Anyway, he is the template for every single red dragon ever. At least in D&D and Pathfinder.

Did you find your brother Orrin in the end?

I think you're the first person to (publicly) get the reference.

Hama wrote:

Already is. Ancient wyrm red dragon. Voila.

Except that Smaug the Golden isn't colored red. So the stats don't fit. <evil grin>

Arkenstone has an odd corrupting effect...a gold dragon corrupted by his own treasure.

I think you're the first person to (publicly) get the reference.

Well, I'm reading The Little Sister at the moment. I only recently discovered the awesome that is Raymond Chandler.

Orfamay Quest wrote:

Hama wrote:

Already is. Ancient wyrm red dragon. Voila.

Except that Smaug the Golden isn't colored red. So the stats don't fit. <evil grin>

Arkenstone has an odd corrupting effect...a gold dragon corrupted by his own treasure.

Seems unlikely, unless by odd you mean, "already starts corrupting you before you even have it". Because last time i checked, smaug devastated a dwarven civilization to get it.

yellowdingo wrote:

Orfamay Quest wrote:

Hama wrote:

Already is. Ancient wyrm red dragon. Voila.

Except that Smaug the Golden isn't colored red. So the stats don't fit. <evil grin>

Arkenstone has an odd corrupting effect...a gold dragon corrupted by his own treasure.

Seems unlikely, unless by odd you mean, "already starts corrupting you before you even have it". Because last time i checked, smaug devastated a dwarven civilization to get it.

Potentially yes. Even thorin oakenshield rabidly desires the arkenstone refusing to part with any part of the treasure...without having it in his posession. As I recall bilbo points out that his payment in the venture would have gone from a share in the treasure to a knock on the head.

Well, I'm reading The Little Sister at the moment. I only recently discovered the awesome that is Raymond Chandler.

Aha. The only Marlowe book I never found a used copy of, and hence never read.

There is internet. PDFs and stuff.

I'm not even a ninja, much less a pirate.
Seriously, though, the US laws are crazed. You can get fined $10,000/song for unauthorized downloading here.
Older (bit still within copyright terms) stuff can be hard to find on teh webz, too -- most of Alastair MacLean's stuff, for example.

Chandler has been dead for more than 50 years. That makes his works public domain.