Hey Jelani, consider a block like the following (from Lillend):
3/day—darkness, hallucinatory terrain (DC 18), knock, light
1/day—charm person (DC 15), speak with animals, speak with plants
Can the Lillend use each of darkness, hallucinatory terrain, knock, and light three times / day (for a total of 12 uses)? Or does she have 3 uses total, that she can spread between any of those abilities (e.g. darkness x3, OR light x2 + knock x1, OR one each of darkness, knock, and light)?
Three uses total.
Where are you getting that Thaddeus? I've always run it that they can cast darkness 3/day, hallucinatory terrain 3/day etc.
Hmm; I've assumed that was always the rule, like with Sorcerers. They have 7x third level spells castable each day and they can be spent on certain spells.
Maybe it's just something I've always gotten wrong. Does anyone else know if I'm right or wrong?
I'm fairly certain you're wrong because of the wording in that trait that gives gnomes an additional use of any of their 1/day SLAs.
Also it wasn't that way in 3.5.
The spell like ability rules don't specify unfortunately. But in the absence of evidence to the contrary, I'm going to keep running it the way I always have like I said in my last post.
Edit:
The trait is called Naturally Gifted:
...you gain an additional use of one of your gnome magic spell-like abilities each day. This does not always have to be the same spell-like ability—one day you might use dancing lights twice, only to use the additional casting for speak with animals the next day.
If the gnome SLAs were intended to be only one use of any of their three racial SLAs as you suggest, why would they need to say "one of your". They would just say you gain an additional use of your gnome magic SLAs per day, or something like that.
Fair enough, extra SLAs for my summons is yummy.
Viorel hold on, unless I'm misunderstanding your post, your fireball would hit Abigail (@Z29). Am I missing something?
Liette, Crissor, or Thaddeus let me know if one of you wants me to dimension door you back into the action with me.
EDIT: All, since Sleep is one of Tiknesr's prime tactics I should note for future that damaging sleeping foes wakes them up (unless it's explicitly a coup de gras, which should almost always just kill them.) Demons #2 and #3 were under Sleep at the start of this turn but I think #3 was just awakened by the Vulpinal and (assuming his fireball stands) #2 was awakened by Viorel.
(Yeesh! High level combat is tricksey!)
@Tik- Liette and Crissor are both ranged attackers and I can summon my creatures quite happily from this distance; I couldn't see any point in getting any of us closer. Plus my summons can heal Abigail if it gets close enough; though I think obliterating them is our best shot.
Sounds good. Thanks. I think I'll wait to hear clarification on Viorel's post and then I'll post Tik's actions...but I'll probably 'port in (ideally behind Dusari Sansa) and (try to) put two of them to sleep.
I will switch to a Z for sleep when I do the next update.
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Good luck buddy, I really think you have a good chance! I'll be voting for you, but I also kinda hope you lose so that you can get back to DMing your great games :P
Seriously! Good luck pulling into the final stretch. I'm rooting for you 100%.
Viorel hold on, unless I'm misunderstanding your post, your fireball would hit Abigail (@Z29). Am I missing something?
Liette, Crissor, or Thaddeus let me know if one of you wants me to dimension door you back into the action with me.
EDIT: All, since Sleep is one of Tiknesr's prime tactics I should note for future that damaging sleeping foes wakes them up (unless it's explicitly a coup de gras, which should almost always just kill them.) Demons #2 and #3 were under Sleep at the start of this turn but I think #3 was just awakened by the Vulpinal and (assuming his fireball stands) #2 was awakened by Viorel.
(Yeesh! High level combat is tricksey!)
Fireball targets a cross section of 4 squares as the point of origin. Y24, Y25, Z24 and Z25 in this particular case. I am assuming you thought the the 25th squeres did not count towards the 20ft? It only reaches to 28th and because of how circles work in grid it does not hit her mount.
The sleep thing was odd since I just saw some sort of makr on #3, I assumed it was sleep, I just figured that waking up 1 was not too big of a drawback against hitting 4 enemies with rather heavy damage. (Naturally after rolls it was just 3 that got injured but anyways risk reward thing.)The fact seems to change it was a different creature that was actually sleep but, the same logic stands. Basically Viorel was hoping to either outright kill them or more likely damage the creatures enough that the others could pick them apart and that way make sure Abigail remains along the living.
Viorel, thanks for clarifying. I *did* misunderstand the squares effected by the fireball.
In terms of strategy, that seems like a fair gamble in a desperate situation. Hopefully there are net more down than up after we're done for the round.
I think before posting Tik's action I'm going to wait for either:
(a) word if Liette wants to head back into the action with him, or
(b) word from Jelani if any of the damage so far has dropped any of the baddies.
Without one or both, it seems like Tik could be 'porting back into a situation where he's the only party member standing on the ground, surrounded by six demons, who (based on watching Abigail get pounded last round) could all too easily kill him. He's way too chicken to do that.
Is that a request Gyrfalcon, or are you just going to wait...? :P
And with Robert Brookes's voice in the background on Know Direction, NO, none of the demons have died from the damage so far this round. Except possibly #5? But I don't think so.
Hehehehe. I guess I could've said that less obtusely, eh?
I like the idea of Tik coming back up to the front...but Tik won't do it if it feels suicidal.
Jelani, will you call out if/which drop after Liette's post tomorrow? There's a chance Tik 'ports up to mop up...but more likely I'll compose an action that keeps Tik at a safe distance.
Sure.
Hey guys, I'm alive! Superstar has sucked a lot of life out of me, however, though since I didn't win I won't be saddled with additional work that'll keep me away from my games. I'm going to take the rest of this week to decompress after everything that's gone on, and I'll be back to my normal efficacy on Monday. Sorry for how things have ground to a halt these last couple months, but that's past now!
If you need to GMPC me for the next few days, please feel free to, I won't mind at all. I should've said something to that effect before radio-silence kicked in.
I've waited this long, not going to DMPC you now :P
I am not going to DMPC any of you actually. At this high of a level, your characters are way too complicated for me to play right, and every round of choices could mean life or death for someone.
So if we have a situation like this in the future, the game will go on pause until the player returns. If I don't know what the person's doing and they disappear that will be a different story, I'll just kill their character. But if I know you're coming back, I'll wait.
Now that RPG Superstar is finished and all our players are here (theoretically) I'd like to get back to the 1 post/48 hours rule.
Can I get a roll call from everyone since we did have a long break, to make sure everyone's still here?
Still here.
Still hear and looking forward to more.
Present.
I'm here
Hello Everybody!
Your pregonative of coarse but i think you are forgetting this
End combat. Okay, after doing the math on what this baby should give you EXP wise, I've decided that you guys have graduated. You will now receive 2,000 XP each per combat round. So everyone gets 4,000 XP.
Honestly, I feel like it's already incredibly difficult to challenge you guys. So I'm fine with the leveling slowing down a bit. I had indeed forgotten I said that, but I'm going to stick with 1,000/round for now.
You guys are maybe APL 12 or 13 (level 10+2 for large party+1 for high point buy), but you just took down a CR 17+ encounter (108,800 XP) in 4 rounds with no deaths.
According to the Gamemastering rules, an APL+3 encounter is "epic" difficulty. That's the highest they list. You guys just took down an APL+~5 encounter like it was cake (with the exception of Abigail, but even she ended up being fine, and I was trying my best to coup de grace her).
Technically, you should each be getting 15,542 XP. That would put you almost all the way to 11. I can give you guys tons of XP and keep up the fast leveling if you want, but I honestly feel like all that will be doing is shortening the lifespan of the game at this point.
To further blather on, it's been my experience that high level play (past level 14 or so) is essentially unplayable, even in PBP. I didn't know that when I started this game, but I've learned a lot about PF since then. When I tried to run Witchwar Legacy with level 12 gestalt characters it ended up imploding because it was just too time intensive and insane.
I will credit Liette/Rob (he was in that game) and say he was willing to stick it out, if memory serves. But several other players couldn't, and it was extremely demanding as a DM.
I'm not really trying to push this to ultra epic heights right now. I don't have time to write the 3 hour+ update posts that kind of play requires. Hopefully slowing the leveling down is okay with everyone.
Well personally. I never was too fond of the X amount of XP/round.(just measures time not how hard the fight was or the situation.) Could just ditch the whole thing and decide on amount of Xp or drop XP all together and level whenever it seems appropriate.
On the at moment 1k/round thing, well it works. But it will eventually come overshadowed by how much XP you need to level. To get a ridicilous example assuming average fight takes 4 rounds 13th to 14th level would take over 20 encounters. That all being said I am fine with it.
On challenge, well I personally don't trust the CR as anything other than a rough guess.(too many variables to account to make a good guideline.)
On this encounter. It isn't as hard as the numbers would suggest. First we are heavily invested in ranged combat as a party, that means one of the big advantages of a dragon is not there. It also cuts down the offensive power of the demons as they have to move in and action economy hates melee. Second thing is that we could take out the dragon before it caused trouble. This did give the demons an extra round of actions but I reckon the dragon could have done worse.(so a lesser version of the one opponent does not work cause action economy.)
I do belive our hardest encounter yet was the one against drakes. That would at least suggest that a group of similar level of threaths is harder for our group. Naturally those don't need to be the same creature just around the same ballpark. Another thing I have noticed is that we tend to mostly have "fair" fights, what I mean by that we are rarely in a big dis/advantage when it comes to the circumstances of the battle.
On high level play.(I categorize that as 15 and above) It is not unplayable, but it is in practice a different game. It does take sort of "gentlemen's agreement" to work however. And yes it is extremely labor intensive. In your particular example I think the issue is more about gestalt than anything.
I kind of just rambled as it came to me so it might be a bit messy but I need to leave so I don't have time to properly structure it.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4
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I'd be fine with leveling by fiat, honestly. It makes us less eager to seek out "crunchy treasure troves of XP" and instead see each potential encounter as an expenditure of resources and possible death. I think that fits the campaign theme pretty well, and I think we're all trusting that we will level up when fitting for the campaign.
Yeah, I'm fine with levelling by fiat as well. I like that we're playing higher levels than I usually play, but I don't care what speed we advance at. (My main IRL game is an E6 Iron Heroes campaign that's been meeting twice a month for four years and we're still 4th level.)
It does seems like we're a tough crew to design combats for. I mentioned before (and know Tik is only a piece of that puzzle) but I really optimized around putting foes to sleep. If that turns out in practice to be a pain in your arse I could easily change his build up a bit, without losing the flavor of the character or hurting my enjoyment of the roleplay at all. Just let me know. As is, he's even more of a glass cannon than a wizard (who probably does more from longer range, and has better defensive spells).
I do belive our hardest encounter yet was the one against drakes. That would at least suggest that a group of similar level of threaths is harder for our group. Naturally those don't need to be the same creature just around the same ballpark. Another thing I have noticed is that we tend to mostly have "fair" fights, what I mean by that we are rarely in a big dis/advantage when it comes to the circumstances of the battle.
Ironically, the "difficult" encounter against the drakes was after you'd had maybe 4-5 encounters before that without rest (since Nathaniel accidentally told them where you were and they were chasing you off their land). The only reason it was hard is that you were essentially completely out of resources at that point.
Those drakes are CR 10, you faced them at level 9, with seven of them. Making them in between a CR 15 and CR 16 encounter. Again, with almost no daily resources left, you guys handled it. That was before you had a duel hexing slumber beast. So an APL+6 encounter like it was cake. They definately had the mobility advantage there too amongst the rocks with their high fly speed.
In the KM PbP game I run, I have four level 9 players. They hit like a hammer, and I'm also facing the same challenge regarding keeping the game interesting for all.
I recently gave them a real hard time. The main of it was two Boggard sorcerers (lvl 5) with two Boggard rangers (lvl 5), supported by their chief, who cowardly waited behind a building to see how things went (I think it would have been a TPK if he had joined early instead of very late). Stinking Cloud with Entangle, with Enlarge Person with Lead Blades gave them a clear edge. the players have great saves, but when they had to save so many times in the first rounds, they were bound to fail a few. The cleric was completely out of the fight without losing a single hit point. I'm not saying it was all great, but I realized then how certain things can change the game completely (like losing LoS).
When I look at our group, I see a lot of the classic flags: 7 experienced players, action economy of 9 to 10 people, a pouncing animal companion, a gunslinger, a summoner, a slumber machine, a very clear focus for enemies (allowing us to hone in on useful gear), focus on battle.
To be honest, some of the battles have been quite brutal, and death is never very far. When I DM'd Tomb of the Iron Medusa, I felt like battles were done in a few very deadly rounds. It made me worry about losing players, especially since you can't easily summon a new one in the middle of a tomb...
The following pieces of advice I've found here and there always helps imo:
...
- (As you've hinted at) APL doesn't work so well. I like how you reward with how long it really took, instead of how hard it was supposed to be.
- Diversify objectives (not all battles, not always about killing, use time limits, etc.). I liked our discussions with scary denizens of the marsh or Kenabres.
- Monsters need to have tactics or numbers (especially in our case!!).
- Use the terrain. ledges, covers, hard to reach places, bottlenecks,
- Use protected casters, in particular
Thanks for the ideas. I guess I already know this stuff, but putting them into play takes time and work on my part. It's much easier to copy paste a few standard monsters from the bestiary and slap them on a featureless map than to create a party of NPCs and map with lots of cool terrain features. So part of it is that I'm running 5 PBPs and don't have time to put that stuff into practice without slowing down the pace of updates significantly. This is my longest running PBP by far, and I'd like to keep it going.
I don't really want you to level up any more. Maybe a couple more times.
You've already far surpassed the power level I originally intended (in a way). Every challenge I've got in my head, you guys could stomp with impunity.
I designed a short dungeon crawl at the Fort of the Nail back when you guys were going there, but I'd have to totally redo it now that you guys are much higher level.
I'm not worried about killing your characters, I want to kill your characters now. Death at your level is an annoyance, not a career end. I had a Living Arcanis character back in the 3.5 days that died six times before hitting level 10. He also had an arm torn off at one point and had to get it regenerated. It made him cooler.
So, we'll see how the giant's lair goes now. That dragon was supposed to be the prophet's mount, and I totally wasn't expecting it to even die in this encounter. He was going to run away. But when you survive less than 1 round...-shrug-
Most of the monsters have maximized HP, I've been doing that for a while. I didn't max out the dragon's because looking at its stats I thought it would do better against you guys. That was a definite mistake in hindsight.
Basically, this post is a bunch of random thoughts. The end result of which is expect to level slower if at all, and expect me to put my evil thinking cap on and turn the heat way up.
I mean, I guess...but that's really lame. I don't want to control what kinds of characters you guys play. Don't worry about it.
I'm still finding my pace with the group since Barek left and Tik/Thaddeus joined. Tik and (especially) Thaddeus are both very powerful characters. Thaddeus hasn't even scratched the surface of his power yet. Master summoner is amazingly powerful and versatile.
The next part of the game is going to be clearing out the Giant's clanhold in the mines of Varriksburg. That should be interesting to say the least. I need to actually create the dungeon still but I'll try to make it as tough as I can without it going over that invisible line into too tough/not fun.
Well DM I just want to roll dice and have fun, so level, don't level, try to kill, don't try to kill, as long as it's a great narrative and everyone is rolling and gaming it's all good with me.
I'm waiting on you guys to move forward in gameplay. This is a sandbox game, you've got to decide how you're going to proceed. Summon more chariots? Walk? Teleport? Something else?