GENTS - I'm on the road from tomorrow noonish through Tuesday night. I may have a chance to read but I won't have a chance to post. I'll try to get you through another round of combat before I sign off.
Oh, if she's unarmed and lacks unarmed strike then she generally wouldn't threaten anyone and thus be unable to make AoOs.
Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.
Now this says unarmed characters normally don't threaten. There's two ways I can see reading that:
1)- Most actions that would provoke an AoO aren't provoked if the person is unarmed because they lack a way to respond.2)- The 'normally' refers to the fact that most unarmed characters don't have unarmed strike. (Although the fact that that feat treats such a character as being armed would take some weight out of this argument.)
I think the following pretty much clears up what is intended (at least within the rules):
Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes, nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe.
An unarmed character can't take attacks of opportunity (but see “Armed” Unarmed Attacks, below).
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).
incoming tangent: But here's something I thought of while looking through this. What if you are holding an improvised weapon or a weapon for which you don't have proficiency? I would think you would be considered armed. But then it seems odd to me that I'm capable of hitting you with a stapler if you provoke an AoO from me, but i can't smack you with my fist without training. I would think the non-proficiency with my fists and inability to do lethal damage would be penalty enough. Or am I incorrect about being armed if you're only holding an improvised weapon?
Then there's the grapple/bullrush as AoO thing…
Making an Attack of Opportunity: An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.
I guess I read the "a single melee attack" thing as anything that can actually be used as a regular attack - as in a weapon attack or any combat maneuver that can be done in place of a regular attack, such as disarm or trip. From their descriptions in the combat maneuvers section: "You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack." This indicates that you can use this as a standard attack, in a full-attack action, or as an AoO.
Now contrast this with what is in the grapple section: "As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options." This is indicating a greater amount of effort, and in terms of action economy more restrictive.
So by RAW, I'm still not sure it's possible. Now, personally, I think it's maybe a bit too restrictive, cause i can totally see someone reaching out to grab a fleeing opponent or reaching out to grab the primary hand of a spell-casting opponent. But then again, the penalties to being grappled are a bit higher than the penalties for simply being struck, disarmed, or tripped…
So, I guess I can see both sides of this. What do you guys think?
I was under the impression that AoOs had to be something that could be made as a [potentially] iterative attack. In addition to hitting someone with an axe or a monk's unarmed attack, that would also include a disarm, sunder or trip attempt. Bullrush, grapple, and overrun are not something I would think you could make an AoO with because they cannot be swapped in in place of a regular attack.
I think one of the big reasons for this is that the later three all involve bringing the entire mass of your body to bear whereas the former are smaller, faster movements.
That being the case, the most logical action for the pirates who want to grab Ushari would be to first Trip her as their AoO then grapple her as their action for that round. I suppose we could always ask about it in the rules forum, but I don't really see that as necessary.
As for making AoOs with an improvised weapon, just doing a search on the term, I don't see anything that disallows it. I suppose Ushari could try to clock the guy with Skitter when he comes at her...
Oh sure... I've got to hit the road and you guys start getting into this whole huge interesting discussion about the AoO rules! Sheesh...
I blame Ushari. :)
Well, I feel like I should read through the rules again before I attempt to contribute meaningfully and work is not cooperating. So, I'm going to freeze the action until we sort through this stuff. Sorry that I won't be able to forward the action more. Feel free to keep hashing through the rules here, if you like.
EDIT: I will say that I think a weapon is a weapon, whether improvised or not and would be usable in an AoO.
Mike and I were chatting off-line, and we both agree that PF doesn't support a grapple as an AoO. Personally I think that rule is a good one, given the effort required and the pay-off of the grappling rules. Obviously you (as the DM) can make the call to the contrary if you disagree with this general premise.
I agree with you on the 'weapon is a weapon' idea.
Mike and I also chatted about the whole "unarmed not threatening" thing. I don't want to speak for him, but he seemed to think that was an appropriate ruling. It kind of strikes me as odd... I'd think one could make the AoO if you're unarmed, you just need to do it knowing that you'll provoke an AoO yourself, and you're not likely to do much damage, but it could at least give you the opportunity to try to disarm or trip the person who's provoking from you. Mike pointed out, however, that if a DM went this direction, they cut the benefits of the Improved Unarmed Strike in half.
Anyway, as much as I want to jump back into combat, I think this is a good thing to get to the bottom of (especially since learning the minutiae rules was a big part of why you ran this game), so I can be patient.. even if that means waiting til you get back into town to resolve this combat.
... I guess. Sigh. :P
Heh, I blame that guy for rolling a 20 on his Will save....(curses like a drunken sailor)
Well, cannot say I am not waiting with bated breath here to see what happens, he he.
I think what Mike said earlier makes a lot of sense. He has a good call here: Use Trip as the AoO, and then next round they can attempt to grapple her. Seems the eaasiest way to get around this whole rules issue, plus it fits in with the theme...Ushari starts flitting away from them so they try to slow her down by knocking her feet from under her.
Thoughts?
Eric you selfish bastard, there weren't any trolls to grapple so you just HAD to go figure out the ONE THING that would stump the GM, didn't you? :P
Personally I think this is all part of Ushari's elaborate, passive-aggressive efforts to land herself a new boy-toy... ;)
Eric... *grumble*... friggin' troublemaker...
OK, since you guys generally agree that grapple is 'too much' as an AoO... and it is a brutally effective CM... we'll go with that being invalid for AoOs. I'm still going to go through the rules again for giggles.
So, when we resume, Ushari will be tripped, prone, and clearly looking for a piratical boyfriend whom Fin will probably decapitate since she seems to be rolling that way. :)
I'm still unsure about whether you can make a bare-handed AoO in response to an AoO, so I'm going to give that some thought... but I think Ushari will opt to drop Skitter (which is still on the table for dramatic purposes).
So we will reconvene with Skitter's attack... BTW, Eric, would you like to run Skitter yourself? I can give you his stats and whatnot. Followed by the pirate mayhem.
BTW, Eric, would you like to run Skitter yourself? I can give you his stats and whatnot. Followed by the pirate mayhem.
Sure go ahead and shoot me an email with his stats whenever you can, Or you can just post them in Skitter's profile if you have time.
Man, Eric is gonna have his hands full controling 3 characters in one game:
Ushari
Skitter
Pirate Baby
Relax, Fin.
Ushari won't have to worry about that for another 9 months...even afterwards, they will be sharing the same square almost all the time, he he.
Curious side-effect of you becoming gestalt... gestation time is quicker. Better buy diapers now, you're already showing. Just like Lureene! :p
OH, great and wonderful Stormy.. where art thou? Back from your trip yet?
Jayse's life literally hangs in the balance.. (but more likely Ushari's does).
Jayse's life literally hangs in the balance.. (but more likely Ushari's does).
Heh...I would not say her life hangs in the balance; more like her precious virginity, he he.
Oh give it up.. no one believes she's chaste!
: dodges the inevitably incoming set of dishes :
(jk)
Considering she apparently has a number of ex-lovers I never thought for a second she was a virgin. Makes you wonder why she killed that guy for cheating on her then, huh?
Born again virgin FTW!!! :P
Justin: Look what goodness Nazard linked me to today...
http://forums.rptools.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=806
It's going to take me some time to download all the tokens and objects, but I'll bundle 'em up and share with you afterwards if you don't just snag them all yourself.
Yikes! Given how my work week is going, you'll definitely have the time to bundle all that before I even begin to track it all down. Thanks!
As for Ushari being a 'Born Again Virgin'... yeah, I'm giving that subject a WIDE berth.
"Free me!"
...she instead hopes someone else got the command, and that the pirates ignore Skitter for a few precious seconds...
Is it just me? Or is Ushari getting kind of bossy? :)
Hmmm...according to the PRD, using the Escape Artist skill to escape from rope bindings will take one minute.
SR, could you verify this as it may change her actions.
Also, how is she bound? Just wrists? Wrists and ankles? Wrists to ankles?
They didn't have time to tie her feet before Jayse so rudely interrupted in the process... so we'll say her hands are tied but the bindings on her legs are easily kicked off.
Ushari - I will check into the SRD... I didn't realise it was 1 minute... and given how quickly they tied you, I'm inclined to say they couldn't have been thorough enough in a 6 second round, while being attacked by a vicious metal crab, to restrain you enough that it would take a minute to get loose. These aren't PBR professionals who hog-tied you.
Ok thanks, that will help a lot. I will post actions shortly.
According to the sources, ropes do take a minute to escape. However, I think that is unreasonable, given the circumstances and the fact that manacles take just as long... so I'm going to knock the time down to a full round action, as if you were 'entangled'.
That seems a good call...esp considering her Escape Artist roll was so kick ass, he he.
Nice Acro roll, Ushari. Why don't you toss in a stearth roll for when you hit the trees?
Thanks, Jayse....it seems like you jinxed my Stealth roll...:P
Something to think about for next time, Eric. You could have avoided the AoO altogether by making your first step down-right instead of straight right.
Ben, that brings up a good point...
Eric, if you thought you couldn't go under the eaves of trees (the diagonal spot that would have prevented the AoO) or you were under the mistaken impression that a withdrawal requires you to flee in a straight line... then say so and we will retcon away the AoO and have Ushari retreat a space diagonally before hauling ass east.
Yeah yer both right on that. It looked like that square was obstructed, so I had Ushari risk it. Lets go ahead and retcon it, since if Ushari drops here...then...well ya know we can say it was a HELL of a ride, he he.
Just a heads up for the DM...
WE HAVE OUR NEXT SIDE QUEST!
Get Skitter repaired!
Indeed. The little trooper fell in the line of duty. However, since Straehan has a mending spell, consider this motivation to rescue/repair HIM so he can repair Skitter. Gotta keep you evil bastards well motivated to save Strae's ass! :)
FYI...Ushari can also cast Make Whole on Skitter...just sayin'...
Seriously, there is no way in hell she would abandon Straehan to the pirate's tender mercies...
FYI...Ushari can also cast Make Whole on Skitter...just sayin'...
LOL. Let me just do that 'random' roll to see if there is a Demonic Wasp Swarm hive that Ushari just happened to sit on by the base of that tree.
It's only a 2% chance but still...% -- oops forgot to factor in the favorable weather conditions for wasp swarms
% - OH! What terrible luck for you... :D
Hmmm.... getting cutesy with the flame breath nearly got Jayse killed... consider me chastised. :)
Hey look at it this way, you did max damage and he failed his Reflex save.
That is pretty darn good if you ask me, he he.
that was pretty amazing. I hope Jayse gets to finish the job, but I'm thinking survival comes first.
And now i'm realizing i only have an hour to use the other two breaths! Eep!
Did I forget to mention that this is a special Fire Breath potion? The DM rolls a random number of minutes (from 1 to 20) that the potion is effective and if you haven't expelled all three blasts within that timeframe, the remaining shots detonate in your belly?
Hm... oversight on my part I guess...
Let's roll that no save damage for Jayse, just for giggles.
Now, tha's a SPICY meatuh-ball!
Dang.. and me with only 17 hp...
Es muy CALIENTE!
GENTLEMEN!!! Fill me full of BBQ sauce... cause I'm dumb as hell!
Now, tha's a SPICY meatuh-ball!
Hmmm..I have an idea for dinner tonight, thanks!
Question for SR:
Does the Channel Energy have any visible effects? If so, then can Ushari choose to restrict the effects of the channel to herself, in exchange for having it ONLY affect her and not be visible?
Obviously having a brilliant white glow emanating from the treetops would not be conducive to staying hidden, he he.
So I checked out how you described the effect when Ushari channel blasted before as a basis for the effect's look. You said it was a radiant burst of light. So I think you are pretty much hosed on changing it to a non-visible effect.
As for making the effect invisible with the 'restriction' being it only affects her... that isn't much of a penalty since you aren't likely to be trying to heal the pirates, right? Moreover, the basis of channeling is that it is an Area of Effect shot UNLESS you use the Selective Channeling feat to eliminate a few people from the field.
Having said that, because you have Selective Channeling which suggests you have some control over the effect, I'll let you attempt to minimize the flare of your channel blast. It will be a 50/50 shot that it works (which I'll roll). If it fails, the pirate in sight will get another chance to see you with a bonus on the attempt. If you are successful, you reduce the flare to an extent that doesn't alert the pirate.
So, do you want to take that risk or choose some other action?
Guys - I'm going to be doing an all-day team meetings/events tomorrow and Thursday. I might be online late tomorrow night but perhaps not.
So does breathing the fire provoke an AoO?
No, I wouldn't think so.