Old School Greyhawk - Saltmarsh Campaign PFRPG (570CY - Southern Keoland)

Game Master ALLENDM

The harpoon wavers, lowering the slightest bit but still ready to fly. Fingers gripping the pull-line in her off hand, Naia calls over her shoulder.

"D'og, Rab - you seeing this? What'dya think?"

Edan

The Touv puts his hand on Thout's chest and taps him to ensure he is ok and then stands up to show himself to the two strangers. The staggered half dwarf nods to acknowledge him.

He has nothing in his hand but their is shortsword at this side. He is a Touv with a bald head and a sharp face.

Touv - think Zulu in monk attire.

He looks a bit surprised at the half-orc with is long pole axe.

Grond and Narciso

The two men, a half elf and a half orc make there up to the gate and then come inside. Neither appear to be looking for trouble and both actually look more concerned, guarded and inquisitive than anything else.

Soros

As both Grond and Narciso interact with Naia a man steps out from behind the fire. Now that you look at the fire you can see that several goblin bodies are burning at the top and you could swear there are also larger bodies at the bottom... In all there are maybe eight or even more bodies in the fire. The man, of obvious Suel blood is wearing robes and sandals and from the looks of it has had a pretty bad night.

Getting rid of some pests and troublemakers! He wipes his hands on his robes and moves away from the fire and closer to his companions. He seems to be keeping his hands free of his robes and out in front of him in a fashion that concerns Narciso. The accent is coastal Keoish and Narciso can tell that the man is from the local area. As is the women.

Standing near the entry is a olven male and a young man of Suel heritage from the looks of him and he looks like a commoner but the olf looks like a woodsman or a ranger of sorts. The women is some sort of sailor but it seems like she is also a warrior. The Touv...it is hard to make what the man is but considering his stance and the sword at his side he is probably also some sort of warrior. Narciso notices two men on the ground. One, a sailor of some sort is trussed up like a spring cook going to the pit and what appears to be a half-dwarf on the ground who seems to be wounded and in poor condition. There are bandages on the man's sides wrapping his torso just below his ribcage. His color doesn't look good.

The olf nods to his companion, pointing at something on the ground near them, before moving towards the new-comers. "Your timing could be better. We've been dealing with a nest of goblins, and then a group of bandits. We're close enough to town we shouldn't leave the bodies to rot, so . . .." He points to the fire.

As he talks, he shifts his bow into his hand, but doesn't reach for any of the few arrows still in his quiver. "As you might expect, we're a little tired, anxious, and not really in a trusting mood. The bandits approached us as wounded travelers looking for aid, so they did nothing to help us trust strangers right now. We've already got two prisoners for the Sheriff and a seriously wounded ally, but we're taking care of him." With his empty hand he indicates the area of the Touv, the trussed man, and the injured half-dwarf.

"Few" arrows. I started with 80, 40 in the external quiver and 40 in the pack. I had so many so that I could justify to myself not counting every shot!

Ferona glances over to Corporal Rain here, "Corporal we need your help here. While the wolves I believe do not pose an immediate threat to Zove here, we also cannot convince them to release her into our custody. I need you to return to Mistress Lira and inform her of these events. She will know how to convince the wolves to let us remove her body."

D'ogryn turns slowly at the sounds, his hand slides the newly acquired sailor knife up his arm to hide it from view.
Sleight of hand: 1d20 + 10 ⇒ (20) + 10 = 30

His eyes roam up and down the two newcomers and then his vision focuses out to the surrounding area. He does not hide the fact that he is looking around the area.
Perception: 1d20 + 5 ⇒ (12) + 5 = 17

He remains silent and vigilant over the two prisoners, waiting to see what happens next.

"My words are not as smooth as Narciso's, and all I can say is we have no hostile intentions toward you" - Grond nods at the assembled group.

"If you burnt out a goblin nest I say good job" - he adds, putting the bardiche away - "If you have more to get rid of, I ask if you need an extra pair of hands or two? I can handle myself in a scuffle, and Narciso over there... Well... He's good for the morale" - the half-orc chuckles - "And some additional tricks"

"We've been travelling south towards Saltmarsh ever since our last caravan guard job was finished, taking odd work offers here and there - for payment or a fair split"

Antas nods slowly and shoulders his hammer and says Perran walk away and see what happens, if they make a move we will do what we must but they are holding back which is odd

Soros

He looks at Edan and Rabalar and then to Naia... More caravan guards seeking adventure... He then turns to the two men and gives a shocked look. Color me surprised and shocked! He then turns around and starts gathering wood...probably for the fire but the man continues to talk. More to himself than anyone else. I mean that is what we need right now...caravan guards. It is not like we have enough guards...Edan, Rabalar, hell even Thout is a guard... He then throws the wood in the fire at different points. You know what we really need?! Someone that can get rid of vermin! That is what! I mean things the size of dog in there and what we really need is someone...something...anything...that would simply get rid of centipedes, roaches, spiders...anything with more than four legs. That would be wonderful! He then picks up another big stick and throws it in the fire. Goblins, bugs, and bandits...that is a trifecta and now we have two more caravan guards!

It appears Soros Soll has had enough...

Little emotional breakdown for our young wizard after last night and today.

Edan

Standing there listening to the two men explain their circumstances and Soros complete breakdown in front of everyone allows the Touv a moment to reflect on the situation. He looks up at the beautiful day, the sun shining on them with the cool breeze blowing from the north towards the ocean.

Well now that Soros is getting that off his chest I wanted to mention that we will need to find a way to get Thout back to town.

He looks around. It would be nice to have a cart or horses?

"Few" arrows. I started with 80, 40 in the external quiver and 40 in the pack. I had so many so that I could justify to myself not counting every shot!

That was Edan just assuming you needed them. Not the DM supposing it :)

"It would, but three poles and a little rope are enough to make a frame to drag with him on it. Bedrolls and such can provide the surface for him to lie on. Not pretty, but functional."

"You hear that Thout? You're not pretty, but functional." Naia throws out with her smile starting to return. She seems to realise Grond and Narciso are still standing, kept at bay by her harpoon. She stows it quickly.

"Oh. Sorry. Come on in. We have fresh goblin and man-meat on the pyre." The young woman crouches down and shucking off her pack rummages around in it before producing some dried fish, then looks at Grond and Narciso.

"Hungry? Have some. Name's Naia. We're here on official Saltmarsh business."

She stands and offers some to the newcomers before crouching beside Thout and winking at him.

"Fish? Not much left...so you better get in quick..."

Still by Thout, she goves him a caring pat and call to Soros.

"Soros! Calm down. We have more caravan guards than we know what to do with. The solution is simple. Remember the caravan I said we were before. Well....now it has more...guards. We're safe. Now."

Narciso grins with Grond's words, but turns serious as he hears the others. "Grond speaks true but not very flattering. Perhaps that's why I like him so much. He keeps me centered. I introduce myself as an entertainer, and I am. But I can also use my music for some little magics. You say you have a wounded ally? I have little skill with wounds but have a couple of simple spells that I'd be happy to use if they might help your friend?"

Reluctantly Peran slowly backs away from the body but keeps his baton at the ready.

"I do not like this! The lass has been through enough...she needs to be properly put to rest!"

Grond accepts the dried fish from Naia - "Your friend dislikes caravan guards?" - he nods at Soros, taking a bite from the dried fish.

Edan

Looks over to Narciso and Grond.

I am not much of healer myself and truth be told I am at loss at how our friend is still alive. He points to the greasy hair sailor who is tied up that is laying next to the goblin that appears to be sniffing the man as if to see if he wants to take a bite out of him.
This one stabbed our friend and we believe his blades were poisoned. I have a few vials that he found on this man. He points to D'ogryn and gives him a quick smile. Edan pulls out the blue colored and the brown colored vials and displays them. I am not sure what they or if they would even help us. Right now he seems to be alright but I am concerned the poison might still be in his system.

Soros

Soros seems to get a hold of himself at Naia's command. The two newcomers can tell he respects the women.

"Sorry...I would ask you to forgive my poor choice of words." He turns to the two new arrivals. [b]"If you are not here to stick a dagger in our back or cleave us in half with that over-sized hatchet. Your presence is welcome."

He turns to the fire and then walks back near Rabalar and D'ogryn. As he does brushes off his robes and notices all the tears and holes in it. He gives a disgusted look but appears to put on a false smile and then looks over to Naia and Edan.

"Thout was poisoned we just unsure of what other lingering effects will come of it."

"I would like to help with the vials, but I am not learned enough in those matters... Yet" - the half-orc seems genuinely intrigued about the swirling liquids, but he does not make a move for them, instead turning to the greasy haired sailor.

Not an Investigator yet. Damn! :D

"Have you asked him? I could give it a try..." - he adds, flexing his knuckles.

Soros

"Sorry...I would ask you to forgive my poor choice of words." He turns to the two new arrivals. [b]"If you are not here to stick a dagger in our back or cleave us in half with that over-sized hatchet. Your presence is welcome."

"Thout was poisoned we just unsure of what other lingering effects will come of it."

"No apologies are needed - the road is a dangerous place, and I don't think there are many willing to trust strangers simply because..." - he nods at Soros - "We are the ones intruding, and if we don't like your words we can always leave"

Reluctantly Peran slowly backs away from the body but keeps his baton at the ready.

"I do not like this! The lass has been through enough...she needs to be properly put to rest!"

'I understand your frustration here, but I do not believe we can handle half a dozen wolves should they prove to be indeed hostile. I would prefer to return to Saltmarsh in one piece." Ferona responds, a hint of irritation in her own voice.

Cpl. Rain

The man steps up toward Peran but keeps his bow down and undrawn. [smaller]"Master priest...best to step back and let them know you mean the girl's body no harm...the girl I mean..."

He puts his hand out as the two flanking young wolves growl and claw forward as they lower their heads and their front shoulders flex. The older wolf over Zove turns and barks and then growls to the one on the left...it yips and backs away a few inches and turns back and growls then barks at Peran again..with the growl being lower and the bark being less substantial as it checks again with the older wolf.

"It would, but three poles and a little rope are enough to make a frame to drag with him on it. Bedrolls and such can provide the surface for him to lie on. Not pretty, but functional."

Edan "That seems like a lot of work to lug this big boy back to Saltmarsh."

He looks back at Thout..."He hasn't missed many meals...and thick boned..."

"Less work to drag the weight on two small points than to carry him! I don't think rolling him back is an option . . .." It seems the olf may be relaxing, some.

Narciso glances at the vials. "I know little useful about poisons, but did you check the vials for magic? A poisoner might carry a magical remedy just in case.... Unless one might just be a non-magical antitoxin."

Assuming you already tried detect magic? GM, would any knowledge check apply?

Narciso glances at the vials. "I know little useful about poisons, but did you check the vials for magic? A poisoner might carry a magical remedy just in case.... Unless one might just be a non-magical antitoxin."

Assuming you already tried detect magic? GM, would any knowledge check apply?

craft (poison) or craft (alchemy) and any knowledge check that would apply to the situation. Know (anatomy) for instance.

Narciso glances at the vials. "I know little useful about poisons, but did you check the vials for magic? A poisoner might carry a magical remedy just in case.... Unless one might just be a non-magical antitoxin."

Assuming you already tried detect magic? GM, would any knowledge check apply?

Edan

He answers the half-elf. "Soros is man of arcane knowledge and cast some incantation to check the two vials. One is poison the other is not. The blue vial is not poison."

"I can help carrying the improvised stretcher" - Grond offers - "I have a strong back - orcish heritage..."

He is still staring at the prisoner though.

Naia relaxes, thoughtfully hunkering down on her haunches and munching dried fish.

”There’s still some left Rab, Sor, D’og, E.” she smiles ruefully. ”Might as well just say “Supper’s up, boys,” like me gran.” The Temlow lass stares wistfully into the pyre perhaps thinking about her family. Her gaze turns to Grond and Narciso, and she notices Grond’s attention. Naia scowls, then swallows her portion.

”Hmm. Sorry, didn’t introduce you. Nameless bastard, meet Grond. Grond, nameless bastard.” Naia munches on a new bit of fish, shrugging as she does.

”Hmm. Sorry, didn’t introduce you. Nameless bastard, meet Grond. Grond, nameless bastard.” Naia munches on a new bit of fish, shrugging as she does.

He nods at Naia, then turns to the nameless bastard - "What's in the vials?"

Grond & The Man

Grond Intimidate: 1d20 + 3 + 2 ⇒ (10) + 3 + 2 = 15 +2 as he is tied up and wounded.

The man with the "Hold" Keoish accent seems to waiver just bit. He seems to stumble over words at the sight of Grond slamming his fists together and his eyes seem to dart to the long pole ax. Da blue one...it..it..it's the damn cure to the poison... but...but...he don't seem to need it... He starts to cough and spits on the ground and tries to roll away from Grond but it doesn't seem to work for him.

The young man nods slightly to the two new comers.
D'ogryn...
D'ogryn stands still as the others talk to each other. He seems to be noncommittal as if he waits for someone to tell him what to do. Then as if out of thin air, a sailor's knife appears in his hand and he returns it to a sheaf along his belt. Turning towards the fire he walks quietly towards it and Soros. Naia giving him a good tongue lashing quiets him down and brings the young mage back to normalcy.
The man who seems to be a cook, places his hand on the shoulder of the mage.

The young man is about to turn when inspiration strikes him...
Home...to a messy kitchen not doubt...my pots better not be rusty. I will not pay to have the rust rem..oval...Dalt, your a genius.
Do you know of a spell that can maybe um..repair or fix things ...such as a pot or a pan?...

He turns to the group as a whole.
...does anyone have such a spell?

He turns and looks to the house again. His eyes move from one window to another with practice ease. Wondering again to what it is that was so special about this house, that it brought a shoeless sailor out here with some thugs.
Perception: 1d20 + 5 ⇒ (9) + 5 = 14

The cook turns around yet again to talk with the others but keeps an eye towards the sailor to hopefully catch a glimpse of his reaction.
We still have that large chest that I was not able to open.
The large oak one that was under the window...dusty. Bound in brass with rusty hinges. Someone tried to chop it open...Perhaps I was going at it the wrong way in trying to force it open with all the damage that has been done to it. If we can get to the chest inside or bring it out here...can that spell repair the damage to the chest. If it is repaired I may be able to have a better chance at opening it. It is a theory right now but it may just work. It also might answer the question as to what Mr.Shoeless was doing all the way out here.
With the last sentence, he nods towards the prisoner.

"Have you asked him? I could give it a try..." - he adds, flexing his knuckles.

D'ogryn nods towards Grond.

Smiling slightly at Naia.
Thank you, maybe a little later...

Edan

Edan walks over to Naia and nods in appreciation to the offer of dried fish. He pulls off his canteen and takes a drink and then passes it on to his friends as he starts to eat on a piece of dried fish.

As he hears the man seem to whine a bit under the pressure of Grond's questioning. He gives up the fact of the blue vial being an antivenom to the poison Thout has.

Edan pulls the blue vial out and uncorks it and smells it. It smells awful...like dead fish but also a scent of something else...more herbal in nature. There appear to be two doses in the vial. He walks back up to Thout.

"Should I give it to him?" He says it out loud as if to everyone in general.

Naia blinks.

"I don't trust anything nameless has, does or says. It might be an antidote. Could be something worse. Let's get Thout home."

The cook turns around yet again to talk with the others but keeps an eye towards the sailor to hopefully catch a glimpse of his reaction.

We still have that large chest that I was not able to open.
The large oak one that was under the window...dusty. Bound in brass with rusty hinges. Someone tried to chop it open...Perhaps I was going at it the wrong way in trying to force it open with all the damage that has been done to it. If we can get to the chest inside or bring it out here...can that spell repair the damage to the chest. If it is repaired I may be able to have a better chance at opening it....

"Unfortunately I posses no such magical skills" - Grond nods at D'ogryn - "Well met. I am Grond"

Edan"Should I give it to him?" He says it out loud as if to everyone in general.

Naia blinks.

"I don't trust anything nameless has, does or says. It might be an antidote. Could be something worse. Let's get Thout home."

"If it seems to have two doses, I say we give one to him" - Grond nods at the greasy man, still staring him down - "If all is well, then I guess we can risk it as an antidote?"

Soros

To D'ogryn:

He turns to Edan.

I think Naia speaks wisely. I would not trust anything from that murderer's mouth. We should just slit his throat and leave him here for the crows. However, knowing that Thout's uncle will show this man no mercy sits well with me.

He turns back to D'ogryn.

I have the means to mend things magically but I don't have that spell memorized at the moment. I would need to rest and study a bit but I could attempt to mend the chest.

He then turns to the two newcomers as he seems to calm himself a bit.

I apologize to you for my conduct. By chance are there any farmers or merchants on the road?

To no one in particular...Do you recall what happened to us on the way out here yesterday? I know it seems like an eon ago but didn't we have guests who shadowed us on horses?

While he was primarily focused on the prisoner and Grond, and wondering about the blue vial, Narciso does finally hear the question about repairing a rusty lock. "Mending? I can cast that cantrip. It takes a bit of time, but we seem to be safe here. Where's the chest?"

Go to the chest and work on repairing the damage with Mending?

Knowledge(Poison): 1d20 + 5 ⇒ (12) + 5 = 17

Re-reading the "Experience of the Elder" racial trait and just thought I'd try to see if it might help figure out the blue vial, and if it should be used. ??

The olf looks at the assortment of peoples gathered on the lawn of this dilapidated old house. "Okay, D'og, we can go retrieve the stuff we know about, at least. Trying to keep things pleasant, you think we should split the newcomers? They pose less of a threat to our team, and can help at the same time, if they choose. Maybe you, me, and Grond go get the things you want to gather?"

Looking at the house, the little cook takes a deep breath and lets it slowly escape.
When this idea came to mind, I was thinking that we would have to bring the chest out here to Soros...I was not going to make him go back inside for something like this. That idea is mute since he does not have the spell anyways...but...Our new friend does and if he is up to it?...So if Narciso and Grond would care to join us in going back in...that may be better. We have been lucky so far that we have not fallen through anything and I think it may be best to try our luck at the chest in the room instead of dragging that weight through the house. If the spell works the way I have heard then the parts we repair will be as if new. I then can try to work on them and see if I can pop that lock. If not we very well may be able to use something to pry open the lid. If the hinges are repaired, that would make it slightly easier to do then. The wood would still be warped and damaged...It just might work.

Though she is still chewing, the Temlow lass masterfully enunciates around her dried fish. "Not habbening D'og. Rab's point is that our new friends may dot be our freds, and that the best way to prove we are freds is that only one of them goes into the house wif you and Rab." Naia swallows, stands and stretches.

"No offense to your likely good if unfortunately arrived personages." Naia offers with a shrug to Grond and Narciso.

"Take Grond. That way he can help carry it out. All the way to Saltmarsh if we have to. If Narciso goes and you still can't open it you'll end up bringing it out anyways."

"You are in luck" - Grond snarls at the greasy man, as the others do not seem inclined to use him as a test subject - "If it was up to me you WOULD drink one of the doses, and we would see what would happen then. Maybe even one first and then the other... Poison and antidote? That should be fun"

Though she is still chewing, the Temlow lass masterfully enunciates around her dried fish. "Not habbening D'og. Rab's point is that our new friends may dot be our freds, and that the best way to prove we are freds is that only one of them goes into the house wif you and Rab." Naia swallows, stands and stretches.

"No offense to your likely good if unfortunately arrived personages." Naia offers with a shrug to Grond and Narciso.

"Take Grond. That way he can help carry it out. All the way to Saltmarsh if we have to. If Narciso goes and you still can't open it you'll end up bringing it out anyways."

"Fine by me. You can keep Narciso as hostage" - the half-orc chuckles - "Lets go get that chest"

Narciso grins at Grond and nods to the cautious Ms. Temlow. "Valid concern. I'll stay out here with you. You may hold my rapier if you are concerned. But if there is any danger remaining in the house perhaps I should heal your friend before he leads Grond inside? It seems he is slightly wounded and I have a Curing spell that I could spare for him?" He doesn't actually draw his weapon as he can see the spear Naia holds and assesses her as likely much better in melee than he. "And I can try the Mending cantrip on it once the chest is out here. Hopefully save you the weight of the chest for the trip back to town."

Assuming "7/10 Grazed" would be a detectable wound? If I'm correct and allowed I'll cast Cure Light Wounds on Dogryn. CLW: 1d8 + 1 ⇒ (6) + 1 = 7

Soros

He looks at the house and back at his friends. I have no desire to go back in that house today but if that is what we need to do I will go with you to ensure everyone gets out safely... He looks a bit dejected at having to go back in but he clearly doesn't want to let his friends go in alone.

So Naia, Edan, and our guest Narcisco will stay out here with Thout?

[dice=Knowledge(Poison)]1d20+5

Re-reading the "Experience of the Elder" racial trait and just thought I'd try to see if it might help figure out the blue vial, and if it should be used. ??

Antas, Ferona, Peran - 4th Day of Readying, Godsday (worship day)
Late Afternoon - 5.5 hours past noon
-------------------------------------
Peddler's Wood Map

The wolves do not give ground but neither do they attack you. The lead wolf, who stands over Zove's body, seems to eye each of you with caution. The wolves around you claw the ground, growl, bark, and pulse forward and then back. There is intent in their movements but it is not clear what.

Cpl. Rain

The man looks at the wolves and then to Peran. He turns to Ferona while keeping the lead wolf in sight.

"Don't think it would be wise for me to leave. Even if I did and got to the Druid I am not sure we would get back in time!"

Peran

Peran takes several steps and lowers his weapon. As he does he notices the lead wolf turns and calls off the two younger wolves who in turn fall back slightly. The older wolf growls its eyes piercing through Peran's. It seems to look at you for a long while sizing up your stance and the weapon in your hand. It then glances to the wolves flanking the party and it howls for a long while. The older wolf to the west of Ferona then howls in response. All four of the younger wolves then howl out in response. The lead wolf puts its paw on Zove's chest and barks towards the group.

Peran is not sure what to make of what is happening around him but he has never heard of wolves acting like this.

Peran Sense Motive sense motive: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (7) + 7 = 14

"Thout? You good with these odds if we leave you here with them?" He points at the two prisoners and the newcomer.

---

"Then let's go get this stuff."

Naia nods to Narciso's offer of healing. "Thanks Narciso, that would be grand. D'og's a fierce fighter. And a good cook."

She smiles wearily at Rab.

"Stay in one piece and come back quick. Any sign of trouble and I won't hesitate to come in. Or burn the place down."

All,

So I am multitasking right now...middle of debugging and waiting on some other automation to finish to validate it all. Had time to do some reading.

adamantine:
Armor made from adamantine grants its wearer damage reduction of 1/— if it’s light armor, 2/— if it’s medium armor, and 3/— if it’s heavy armor. Adamantine is so costly that weapons and armor made from it are always of masterwork quality; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given. Thus, adamantine weapons and ammunition have a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls, and the armor check penalty of adamantine armor is lessened by 1 compared to ordinary armor of its type. Items without metal parts cannot be made from adamantine. An arrow could be made of adamantine, but a quarterstaff could not.

Type of Item Item Cost Modifier
Ammunition +60 gp per missile
Light armor +5,000 gp
Medium armor +10,000 gp
Heavy armor +15,000 gp
Weapon +3,000 gp (shield???)

No adamantine shields...so I did some searching on the forums. Found this link which I thought was useful for our discussion:

Paizo: Pathfinder Forum Discussion on Adamantine Shields

I would say that a buckler/small/large shield would be priced the same as a weapon. I think that would be fair (let me know).

I also think it would be fair to add DR of +1/ - to the shield.

Let me know if this seems fair to everyone...

I didn't realize there was no actual adamantine shields in the core rules... I have not used a lot of adamantine so that is probably the reason. :)

Moving on to DR stacking. Doing a little reading I realize my terminology is wrong.

The rule for DR specifically states:

"If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation."

Now the intent of the DR being added to the shield is to benefit martial classes. So in my opinion with this addition the Armor Mastery of the Fighter, the change in the Shield Specialization feat these three things should stack.

1) Shield DR
2) Shield Specialization
3) Armor Mastery (Barbarian DR replaces AM)

This would mean if a fighter has a light shield, shield specialization (+4 total for SS/GSS), and armor mastery he would have a DR 10/ -. This is for a 19th Level Fighter... I believe that is a reasonable power to have as a 19th level fighter who has spent the slots on feats to specialize in the use of a shield.

Let me know your thoughts. As far as Barbarian Damage Reduction I think I would follow the same line of thought in all honesty. I think the DR #/- for Shield/Shield Spec/AM or Barbarian DR should stack. It makes sense for those martial classes to gain this benefit so that they can absorb large amounts of damage in a epic fight...

I don't see DR 10-15/ - being unrealistic. And this is going to be at 19th to 20th level; a good many encounters are going to be hitting you with large amounts of damage at that level.

Jack

--snip--

I eliminated the expenditure of AoO...

--snip--

What you say is completely reasonable. I hereby withdraw my opposition to applying the shield bonus to specific attackers when flanked.

--snip--

SPACE/REACH EXAMPLES

Just to make sure we're on the same page regarding reach and diagonals... The images to which you linked depict the second diagonal as being outside the threatened area for a medium creature with reach. There is a faq addressing this (Diagonals Reach FAQ) that says the second diagonals are indeed threatened. That is the way I would prefer to play it, if there is no objection.

--snip--

adamantine:

--snip--

I think an adamantine shield giving DR +1/- priced at 3000gp (the price of a weapon) is very fair.

Moving on to DR stacking...

--snip--

So the rule would be that Shield DR (including Shield Specialization DR) stacks with any other sources of DR #/-. BUT, adamantine armor does not? Is that right?

So to max it out for a vanilla 20th level Variant Fighter using a large adamantine shield, heavy adamantine armor, Shield Specialization, and Armor Mastery, he would have 2 large shield + 1 adamantine shield + 4 Shield Specialization + 5 Armor Mastery + 5 Armor Mastery at 20th level = DR 17/-. Note, I did not include the adamantine armor. If that is intended the DR would become DR 20/-.

EDIT: Or if the shield bonus did not apply, he would have DR 13/- (because of the armor).

EDIT 2: Or would it be DR 10/- without the shield (because the armor DR does not stack with Armor Mastery)?

Armor would be included as well. I don’t think 20/ - is unreasonable for 19-20th level fighter.

Yes, I agree the second diagonal is in the threat range.

Advanced Armor Training for fighters, quoted from Archives of Nethys:

Armored Juggernaut (Ex)
Source Armor Master's Handbook pg. 14

When wearing heavy armor, the fighter gains DR 1/—. At 7th level, the fighter gains DR 1/— when wearing medium armor, and DR 2/— when wearing heavy armor. At 11th level, the fighter gains DR 1/— when wearing light armor, DR 2/— when wearing medium armor, and DR 3/— when wearing heavy armor. If the fighter is 19th level and has the armor mastery class feature, these DR values increase by 5. The DR from this ability stacks with that provided by adamantine armor, but not with other forms of damage reduction. This damage reduction does not apply if the fighter is helpless, stunned, or unconscious.

Note the EXPLICIT,specific rule that the DR stacks.

Specific over-rules generic, right?

Told you I had been looking at doing this sort of build . . ..

Note that this specific specialty training increases the potential bonus from adamantine full plate to a total of DR 11/- compared to the armor's 3/- or the base Armor Mastery's DR 5/- (or the combined total of 8/-).

I'll be honest, I haven't really looked closely at your shield house rules, because I'm just not playing a shield carrying character in either game. But, just assuming Thout's numbers are correct, then a character dedicated to building up DR through armor and training could build up to a total of DR 23/-, but it would be a primary focus for the character in money, feats, and class feature applications.

I think Thout did make one mistake, though. Unless a FAQ somewhere tells me I'm wrong, of course. Armor Mastery gives DR 5/- when wearing armor or carrying a shield. Not for each of wearing armor or carrying a shield. That would drop it back to a max of 18/-.

@Rabalar, I did not explain well enough where I got those numbers. They are based on the House Rules Variant Fighter's Armor Mastery. That version is 5 + level/4. So in the case of the 20th level Variant Fighter that becomes 5 + 5. It was not intended to be 5 for the armor and 5 for the shield. I enumerated the different aspects of the shield DR separately.

Armor would be included as well. I don’t think 20/ - is unreasonable for 19-20th level fighter.

Ok. So I don't know that there is a hard and fast rule, but it seems like the basic idea is that physical DR is kind of like dodge bonuses in that they stack with one another.

This makes me either very excited or very scared (not sure which, yet!) for what we will be encountering at 20th...

If all the above discussion is ratified, I think that answers all my questions at the moment, but fear not! I'm sure I'll have more

ALLENDM wrote:

Armor would be included as well. I don’t think 20/ - is unreasonable for 19-20th level fighter.

Ok. So I don't know that there is a hard and fast rule, but it seems like the basic idea is that physical DR is kind of like dodge bonuses in that they stack with one another.

This makes me either very excited or very scared (not sure which, yet!) for what we will be encountering at 20th...

If all the above discussion is ratified, I think that answers all my questions at the moment, but fear not! I'm sure I'll have more

DR doesn't really bother me as we have been using DR for a while in our RL campaign in the shields and the variant fighter and such. This is my opinion only, but the encounters become tougher and the DM has to spend more time prepping encounters to utilize other elements than just raw combat. When raw combat is used the fights become more meaningful and the use of feats and skills become more important...just my observations. Right now we haven't used much of the rule changes as we move along I am hoping you will get to the see them in use. The encounters with high-level martial characters can be dangerous as well for the party. Knowing when to scat becomes important.

Poison/disease and wound thresholds have a big impact on the game...as does the inability to use higher level spells unless you are willing to risk the dangers of doing it. The feat tax reduction just makes the game a little more martial/physical in this world.

I was looking back that the new shield rules, and I have a question. Are we playing that a shield is effective vs a limited number of opponents at all times? Or only when flanked? In my head, it is only when flanked, but I'm looking for confirmation.

I had a very long day and just getting finished now. Too tired to post, will have one up sometime tomorrow.

I was looking back that the new shield rules, and I have a question. Are we playing that a shield is effective vs a limited number of opponents at all times? Or only when flanked? In my head, it is only when flanked, but I'm looking for confirmation.

When flanked.

If you are not flanked your shield bonus counts for all attackers.

I have revised the house rules with the additions/changes to the feats and better clarified the flank mods.

@AllenDM, want to make sure I understand how combat is working. I saw that you noted the roach was grazed and down 4 hit points. Because D'ogryn moved before the roach did, I would have expected it to be down 6 HP due to the sneak attack. Did the sneak attack apply in this case? Or did the roach have some DR? If so, can we tell when a creature has DR and does not experience the same amount of damage as we expect?

@AllenDM, want to make sure I understand how combat is working. I saw that you noted the roach was grazed and down 4 hit points. Because D'ogryn moved before the roach did, I would have expected it to be down 6 HP due to the sneak attack. Did the sneak attack apply in this case? Or did the roach have some DR? If so, can we tell when a creature has DR and does not experience the same amount of damage as we expect?

Sneak attack didn't apply. This was a random encounter with neither party surprised and the roach on the wall sensing something on the other side of it. I basically checked to see if the roach perceived if your group was behind the wall (I took the position it didn't realize there was a door/not intelligent enough). It did sense D'ogryn slid his dagger under the door...if you recall I put a comment about the antenna's being near D'ogryn's face it was my clue to you guys it knew something was behind the door/wall. It was looking to ambush whatever came but D'ogryn's and Thout both sensed something on the other side of the wall.. It came down to who got the jump first and you guys won out.

@AllenDM, want to make sure I understand how combat is working. I saw that you noted the roach was grazed and down 4 hit points. Because D'ogryn moved before the roach did, I would have expected it to be down 6 HP due to the sneak attack. Did the sneak attack apply in this case? Or did the roach have some DR? If so, can we tell when a creature has DR and does not experience the same amount of damage as we expect?

The other thing I would add is I am going to use the wound threshold names to describe the condition of an encounter. That will give you an idea of where it sits on the HP scale for that creature. I really don't like giving out he has 6hp and such. So for me if I say he is grazed that give you a clue that he is above 3/4 of his hp and so forth.

Sneak attack didn't apply...

Ok, thanks. When I realized that the sneak attack may not have applied, I was thinking that perhaps the bug was not flat-footed and would therefore have gotten an AoO when Thout ran by (D'ogryn, of course, would have avoided it due to his tumbling), but when there was no AoO and no sneak attack damage, I began to wonder. So if no one is surprised, is anyone flat-footed before they act? Or is it that just sneak attack does not apply? Or does it just kind of go by the feel of the encounter? For example, Thout was willing to risk an AoO from the bug, but another creature may have caused him to stop right as he entered the room, just to avoid the risk.

The other thing I would add is I am going to use the wound threshold names to describe the condition of an encounter. That will give you an idea of where it sits on the HP scale for that creature. I really don't like giving out he has 6hp and such. So for me if I say he is grazed that give you a clue that he is above 3/4 of his hp and so forth.

I agree that giving an actual HP number takes away from the game. Wound thresholds seem great to me.

---

I know I'm asking a lot of questions right now, but I want to understand this rule set (which I like, btw). I'm expecting a lot of fun in this campaign!

EDIT: I like to know the rules, but I'm not one who believes that they must be rigidly applied. Common sense and fun should prevail. Just want to understand in general for making decisions.

AllenDM wrote:

Sneak attack didn't apply...

Ok, thanks. When I realized that the sneak attack may not have applied, I was thinking that perhaps the bug was not flat-footed and would therefore have gotten an AoO when Thout ran by (D'ogryn, of course, would have avoided it due to his tumbling), but when there was no AoO and no sneak attack damage, I began to wonder. So if no one is surprised, is anyone flat-footed before they act? Or is it that just sneak attack does not apply? Or does it just kind of go by the feel of the encounter? For example, Thout was willing to risk an AoO from the bug, but another creature may have caused him to stop right as he entered the room, just to avoid the risk.

AllenDM wrote:

The other thing I would add is I am going to use the wound threshold names to describe the condition of an encounter. That will give you an idea of where it sits on the HP scale for that creature. I really don't like giving out he has 6hp and such. So for me if I say he is grazed that give you a clue that he is above 3/4 of his hp and so forth.

I agree that giving an actual HP number takes away from the game. Wound thresholds seem great to me.

---

I know I'm asking a lot of questions right now, but I want to understand this rule set (which I like, btw). I'm expecting a lot of fun in this campaign!

Ask away...it is our game not mine. I don't mind adjusting to our party. At the end of the day I want us ALL to have fun. I know the house rules, being they are different than "normal", are challenge. I don't mind the questions...if anything it helps to refine them if they need it. I don't mind making adjustments and tweaking them if we need to for clarify/improvement/fairness. Some of the HR's will not come into play until later in the game or in specific situations so I am prepared to discuss them as they come up. It is only fair to everyone involved... You will find I am not a Rule's Lawyer...more a set of guidelines to get us from point A to B in our story. The Combat Expertise, Shield Focus and Flanking discussion are good examples of this. You have a question or suggestion it often leads to improving on what we are doing...makes us all better.

I am probably very different than most DM's on the site...I have not read a lot of the games going on. I do read a few here and there that interest me and help me with how to improve on the PBP aspect. I want to make sure I am providing all of you a good format for the game.

Ok, finally got to the macros sheet - Naia updated now....

Thanks, OSW!

@D'ogryn, not sure how to respond to you leaving. Are you intentionally skipping the last door?

I did not know that there was a door. I will a adjust later tonight. On my phone right now.

Ok, cool

Ferona over spent on the wine for 8 silver of the two gold we were given to eat and Antas does not wish to see her embarrassed if we cannot pay for dinner.

Surprise! I have rules questions!

Critical Hits
Not complaining, but I do not understand why Thout's strike was a critical. The roll was good (an 18), but was not in the critical range for his axe (crits only on a 20). I know that we are playing that critical hits automatically confirm. I also know that the threat range interaction with keen and other feats has been altered. I'm just not understanding how that roll was a critical.

Shields
First, I know readying (strapping) a shield is a move action that does not provoke (link), but does that action include retrieving the shield? So, in Thout's specific case, he has a shield, but it is not in hand:
1) In a single move action can Thout retrieve and ready his shield, all while not provoking?
2) Or does he have to first retrieve the shield (move action that provokes), then ready it (move action that does not provoke and can be combined with a regular move)?
3) Or does he have to first draw the shield (move action that does not provoke and can be combined because it's a weapon), then ready it?

Second, does readying a shield require one or two hands free? I can find no rulings on this.

My take on this is it would be option 3 and it would only requires one free hand. Much of my opinion on this is from the text of how a Quickdraw Shield works. However, I can understand there being other opinions.

Let me know what you think, 'cause Thout's wantin' to get that shield out! :) My plan for next turn would be to draw the shield while standing from the crouched position (because it's a weapon), then ready it while moving into the kitchen. Is this legal?

Surprise! I have rules questions!

Critical Hits
Not complaining, but I do not understand why Thout's strike was a critical. The roll was good (an 18), but was not in the critical range for his axe (crits only on a 20). I know that we are playing that critical hits automatically confirm. I also know that the threat range interaction with keen and other feats has been altered. I'm just not understanding how that roll was a critical.

Shields
First, I know readying (strapping) a shield is a move action that does not provoke (link), but does that action include retrieving the shield? So, in Thout's specific case, he has a shield, but it is not in hand:
1) In a single move action can Thout retrieve and ready his shield, all while not provoking?
2) Or does he have to first retrieve the shield (move action that provokes), then ready it (move action that does not provoke and can be combined with a regular move)?
3) Or does he have to first draw the shield (move action that does not provoke and can be combined because it's a weapon), then ready it?

Second, does readying a shield require one or two hands free? I can find no rulings on this.

My take on this is it would be option 3 and it would only requires one free hand. Much of my opinion on this is from the text of how a Quickdraw Shield works. However, I can understand there being other opinions.

Let me know what you think, 'cause Thout's wantin' to get that shield out! :) My plan for next turn would be to draw the shield while standing from the crouched position (because it's a weapon), then ready it while moving into the kitchen. Is this legal?

You are right. I was looking at the total in my rush to get this posted for us. That would be correct for Soros as well. Sorry about that...was not checking the roll but the total as I wrote. You would have easily dispatched the centipede you faced.

Soros has only lost 3 hp. So he is grazed (-1). Sorry about that got in a rush and didn't check the rolls glad you caught it. Let me read over the rules and see. I would think option 3 is the course but I need to verify it.

Jack

I have to get in for a rather big meeting with my senior leadership at work so I might not be able to post tonight.

Here's a rules question. :)

Thout may want to stand over Soros to protect him. For Thout to occupy his square, barring unusual circumstances, Soros must be helpless. He is not yet helpless, just disabled, so he would have to voluntarily become helpless for Thout to do this. Of course, Soros is also dazed. And would standing over him help anyway? So I really have 3 questions:

1) Can a character voluntarily become helpless?
2) If 1 is true, then can a dazed character choose to become helpless?
3) If 2 characters are in the same square, with one being helpless, can an opponent target the helpless character? Or does the non-helpless character being there prevent that?

I assume that becoming helpless would mean giving up actions, AC, etc. that turn.

EDIT: On item 3, if the helpless character can be targeted, maybe doing so provokes an AoO from the non-helpless?

OK no one got my funny or no one cared about it...Kane was the man that had the Alien burst out of his chest in the movie Alien...Oh well..lol

Good one! But, I couldn't place it. The only 2 I thought of were Cain of Cain and Abel and Citizen Kane, but since one had the wrong spelling and you didn't mention "Rosebud", those couldn't be right. It went right over my head. But very apropos! Haven't seen that one in forever

Wow! I just realized that the Endurance feat is significantly upgraded under the optional Wound Threshold rules (you'll need to scroll down to the feats). I've always looked at it as cool flavor, but when using these rules, it has solid utility in battle. Go Rangers!

Wow! I just realized that the Endurance feat is significantly upgraded under the optional Wound Threshold rules (you'll need to scroll down to the feats). I've always looked at it as cool flavor, but when using these rules, it has solid utility in battle. Go Rangers!

All three feats are very helpful. Which is why states in the house rules they are in use. :). One NPC in particular uses one of the feats.

Here's a rules question. :)

Thout may want to stand over Soros to protect him. For Thout to occupy his square, barring unusual circumstances, Soros must be helpless. He is not yet helpless, just disabled, so he would have to voluntarily become helpless for Thout to do this. Of course, Soros is also dazed. And would standing over him help anyway? So I really have 3 questions:

1) Can a character voluntarily become helpless?
2) If 1 is true, then can a dazed character choose to become helpless?
3) If 2 characters are in the same square, with one being helpless, can an opponent target the helpless character? Or does the non-helpless character being there prevent that?

I assume that becoming helpless would mean giving up actions, AC, etc. that turn.

EDIT: On item 3, if the helpless character can be targeted, maybe doing so provokes an AoO from the non-helpless?

1). Yes I would rule they can volunteer to become helpless. This plays out all the time.

2). I would say yes. For two reasons: It stats he still has normal AC and it stats no actions and I don’t consider a choice and action.

3) that is a great question. I would think if the opponent choose to target the helpless person it provoke an AoO. I would also believe you would provide him a AC bonus with Aid Another.

OK no one got my funny or no one cared about it...Kane was the man that had the Alien burst out of his chest in the movie Alien...Oh well..lol

Kane threw me off as well. I thought the same thing as Licitus.

Thout wrote:

Here's a rules question. :)

Thout may want to stand over Soros to protect him. For Thout to occupy his square, barring unusual circumstances, Soros must be helpless. He is not yet helpless, just disabled, so he would have to voluntarily become helpless for Thout to do this. Of course, Soros is also dazed. And would standing over him help anyway? So I really have 3 questions:

1) Can a character voluntarily become helpless?
2) If 1 is true, then can a dazed character choose to become helpless?
3) If 2 characters are in the same square, with one being helpless, can an opponent target the helpless character? Or does the non-helpless character being there prevent that?

I assume that becoming helpless would mean giving up actions, AC, etc. that turn.

EDIT: On item 3, if the helpless character can be targeted, maybe doing so provokes an AoO from the non-helpless?

1). Yes I would rule they can volunteer to become helpless. This plays out all the time.

2). I would say yes. For two reasons: It stats he still has normal AC and it stats no actions and I don’t consider a choice and action.

3) that is a great question. I would think if the opponent choose to target the helpless person it provoke an AoO. I would also believe you would provide him a AC bonus with Aid Another.

Ok, sounds good to me. Thanks.

Unfortunately, Thout didn't get to use it. Those bugs cut him off! Between the roach and these centipedes, I feel like I'm in Starship Troopers!

ALLENDM wrote:

Thout wrote:

Here's a rules question. :)

Thout may want to stand over Soros to protect him. For Thout to occupy his square, barring unusual circumstances, Soros must be helpless. He is not yet helpless, just disabled, so he would have to voluntarily become helpless for Thout to do this. Of course, Soros is also dazed. And would standing over him help anyway? So I really have 3 questions:

1) Can a character voluntarily become helpless?
2) If 1 is true, then can a dazed character choose to become helpless?
3) If 2 characters are in the same square, with one being helpless, can an opponent target the helpless character? Or does the non-helpless character being there prevent that?

I assume that becoming helpless would mean giving up actions, AC, etc. that turn.

EDIT: On item 3, if the helpless character can be targeted, maybe doing so provokes an AoO from the non-helpless?

1). Yes I would rule they can volunteer to become helpless. This plays out all the time.

2). I would say yes. For two reasons: It stats he still has normal AC and it stats no actions and I don’t consider a choice and action.

3) that is a great question. I would think if the opponent choose to target the helpless person it provoke an AoO. I would also believe you would provide him a AC bonus with Aid Another.

Ok, sounds good to me. Thanks.

Unfortunately, Thout didn't get to use it. Those bugs cut him off! Between the roach and these centipedes, I feel like I'm in Starship Troopers!

Good questions never the less. This is a tough encounter especially since the PF version of these critters have a great stealth and AC due to their small size. Their attack is rather good as well and considering they are ambush predators with poison.

I am really having fun with our group. I am looking forward to getting the two groups meshed together.

The roach was a change in the random encounter list...which I tweaked to better match what I was going for. There are small tweaks in the overall module to keep the old school players guessing :)

I just wanted to pop in here and say I am still here. Since Ferona had not posted in a while, I didn't want you to think I had disappeared.

I am also enjoying these combat encounter too! Even though I am a spell wielder it is good to see how combat works differently...and deadlier too!

The encounters have been good. I've never seen or played the original modules, so I have no idea what is being altered, but I can say that they've been good, and I'm very much enjoying it.

As I'm sure you can tell, I enjoy working out these rules and helping determine what seems a reasonable compromise between a "realistic" playable fantasy simulation and reality. Even though Thout didn't use it here, it (unfortunately?) is the kind of thing that may very well be used in the future!

The combination of the low(er) magic world and these house rules is very appealing to me. I'm still really excited about this campaign.

To be honest, you may have noticed I don't engage in mechanical discussions very much. Mostly because I don't have a head for the finer nuances, and the beautiful byproduct is that it prevents me from any form of metagaming - I just make my character act as they would and see how that works in the game world. This makes it entirely frustrating when "rules" or "mechanics" prevent "what makes sense" or "what totes should have happened". "Makes sense" and "should" being subjective and differing from individual to individual. ;)

I ferl comfortable enough here to say I think there are waaay too many house rules that get in the way of fluid combat, but this is DM's gsme and Naia isn't dead. Yet. And I'm enjoying it immensely.

And yes, this is ever so slightly different from how I ran it recently. Then again, my family spent so little time in the house portion (though they did go upstairs). Funniest of all, I added a goblin tribe to my house too, though nowhere near as developed as this mob.

To be honest, you may have noticed I don't engage in mechanical discussions very much. Mostly because I don't have a head for the finer nuances, and the beautiful byproduct is that it prevents me from any form of metagaming - I just make my character act as they would and see how that works in the game world. This makes it entirely frustrating when "rules" or "mechanics" prevent "what makes sense" or "what totes should have happened". "Makes sense" and "should" being subjective and differing from individual to individual. ;)

I feel comfortable enough here to say I think there are waaay too many house rules that get in the way of fluid combat, but this is DM's gsme and Naia isn't dead. Yet. And I'm enjoying it immensely.

And yes, this is ever so slightly different from how I ran it recently. Then again, my family spent so little time in the house portion (though they did go upstairs). Funniest of all, I added a goblin tribe to my house too, though nowhere near as developed as this mob.

OSW, I want you, and everyone, to know I am open to feedback and suggestions. What rules have hindered you or made combat less fluid for you? What house rules are bothering you? Like I said I like these discussions and negative feedback doesn't bother me as it allows us to develop things as we go. I have not used the HR's in PBP so I was really interested in seeing how they would work...and obviously, there are some things I added into the HR's for this specific campaign as I wanted to see how they played out.

I will say that the unchained wound threshold and unchained poison and disease make the world much more dangerous and forces the group to rethink combat at points. Forces me to rethink combat as well in these encounters. Curious what your thoughts are OSW and anyone else's :)

To be honest, you may have noticed I don't engage in mechanical discussions very much. Mostly because I don't have a head for the finer nuances, and the beautiful byproduct is that it prevents me from any form of metagaming - I just make my character act as they would and see how that works in the game world. This makes it entirely frustrating when "rules" or "mechanics" prevent "what makes sense" or "what totes should have happened". "Makes sense" and "should" being subjective and differing from individual to individual. ;)

I ferl comfortable enough here to say I think there are waaay too many house rules that get in the way of fluid combat, but this is DM's gsme and Naia isn't dead. Yet. And I'm enjoying it immensely.

And yes, this is ever so slightly different from how I ran it recently. Then again, my family spent so little time in the house portion (though they did go upstairs). Funniest of all, I added a goblin tribe to my house too, though nowhere near as developed as this mob.

Goblins seem to be a natural fit...and honestly, I blew them out as they were already in the Module but as just a random encounter. Used them as a hook for the entire module so that their role in the module is still "random" for the actual adventure. The roach was added because there are already other insects in the module so the roach in this environment just seemed like a natural extension. Some of the original random encounters seemed out of place.

@Naia, I like the approach to gaming that you describe above. Replicating what a character would do within the game is my preferred style vs trying to mechanically maximize every action according to the rules. I often have trouble implementing it because doing that well requires having a solidly developed picture/framework of the character (something I am quite poor at doing). I do like what you have done and are doing with Naia.

I'm glad you're enjoying the game because I am too :) and as I said above, I like Naia's character. I am curious about your statement that the house rules interfere with fluid combat. I have not noticed the rules themselves interfering as much as that we may not understand them, yet. Are you saying that the rules are the problem? Or our lack of familiarity? Or the fact that we need to learn new rules?

Personally, I believe that the Rules-As-Written are often vague; therefore, there is often more than one way to implement them, which is why we need to discuss how to do so. Though I would not consider that creating a house rule, perhaps it is a house interpretation? A house interpretation being something that clarifies without violating RAW. A house rule being something that alters RAW in some way. I suppose that distinction may not really matter in a practical sense, but the reason I see these discussions as valuable is because it helps me see the available possibilities.

I'm looking forward to finishing this battle and getting upstairs. I like the mystery developing and I hope we are able to unite with the other characters soon. I know this is waaay meta, so I hope this does not offend anyone, but as a practical matter, should we consider returning to Saltmarsh before we go downstairs? As in, eliminate the goblins thus completing the "mission", return and report, unite with the others, and return?

It is a nice breath of fresh air to get to play with people who are into the game the same way I am!! And it is Greyhawk to boot!! While we have been sort of on the edge so far, I look forward to the day the Brother Peran can attempt to convert you all!!

Hah! Good luck with that! :)

Convert a Wood Olf to following a deity whose church thinks that people should be beaten until they follow doctrine? Wouldn't hold my breath . . ..

@ Thout: Hmm. I guess I haven't had a tacit problem per se. More that I'm much more used to things not being so specifically ruled - see my surprise that there is a house rule for crouching, let alone a rule for crouching in the first place. Ultimately it doesn't affect me as a Player as I am largely oblivious to what the rules are to begin with. I'm just endlessly surprised.

@ DM - I don't have a problem with the rules/houserules. I just think you are overthinking the simulation. ;) As for fluidity, I get the sense that we need to have rules for things that are for my taste, auto-assumptions. Most of the feat interactions with shields for example should be options, not trained skills; and though your houseruled fighter variant gives a little more in the way of agency, all characters are starved for feats if options are feat-gated. Power attack. Weapon Finesse. Point Blank shot (should just be full round action to steady). One that really anooys me is firing into melee when your ally is in the way which equals "cover-and-firing-into-melee".

But mostly I'm annoyed at myself and Naia for being inexperienced and not swapping back to harpoon and buckler for DR/1 instead of standing there with a bow in one hand and an arrow in the other! ;)

All of this should be viewed through the lens of my experience with this milieu - the first time I ran it I was probably @10 years old using ADnD.

I ran it again for my brother and his kids a few months back. In two sessions we got halfway through the adventure, this time with PF. I favour ease of action over rules as intended, but I don't pull any punches.

So I'm just complaining at an extremely high level. And again, having a lot of fun.

As for goblins, I was a little disappointed in myself in adding them merely for the ubiquity of their existence in DnD games. But like here, they worked really really well.

@ Thout: Hmm. I guess I haven't had a tacit problem per se. More that I'm much more used to things not being so specifically ruled - see my surprise that there is a house rule for crouching, let alone a rule for crouching in the first place. Ultimately it doesn't affect me as a Player as I am largely oblivious to what the rules are to begin with. I'm just endlessly surprised.

@ DM - I don't have a problem with the rules/house rules. I just think you are overthinking the simulation. ;) As for fluidity, I get the sense that we need to have rules for things that are for my taste, auto-assumptions. Most of the feat interactions with shields, for example, should be options, not trained skills; and though your houseruled fighter variant gives a little more in the way of agency, all characters are starved for feats if options are feat-gated. Power attack. Weapon Finesse. Point Blank shot (should just be full round action to steady). One that really annoys me is firing into melee when your ally is in the way which equals "cover-and-firing-into-melee".

But mostly I'm annoyed at myself and Naia for being inexperienced and not swapping back to harpoon and buckler for DR/1 instead of standing there with a bow in one hand and an arrow in the other! ;)

Makes sense...and you make some great points.

Here is my perspective on crouched and why it was added. I have been playing with it for a while now first as a player and then as a DM. There is a gap in the rules in my opinion between prone and standing/moving. This rule is actually from another source that our group stole it from and incorporated into our games, and honestly, it just made sense to us. I have found it pretty useful to bridge the gap when players are prone and they are trying to act in the situation presented. Crouched allows a transition that gives you some advantages in moving/acting and AC. Here are the notes on conditions in the HR:

Notes about conditions:
Crouched
The character is off their feet but upright. They may attack and defend themselves and use all weapons they are normally capable of using, including missile weapons, though weapons with reach lose reach while the character is crouched, and weapons with reach that are over 9 feet long may not be used to attack. Move actions are limited to a five-foot step, standing, or going prone. The five-foot step and standing do not provoke an attack of opportunity. Going prone does provoke an attack of opportunity. A character may go from prone to crouched without provoking an attack of opportunity as a standard move action. A character that is crouched receives a +2 AC modifier for ranged weapons.

Drowsy is a less severe state of sleepiness than asleep.
Multiple applications of the drowsy condition stack to create a more severe level of drowsiness: A mildly drowsy character who is made mildly drowsy again becomes moderately drowsy, a mildly drowsy character who is made moderately drowsy becomes severely drowsy, and a mildly drowsy character who becomes severely drowsy becomes asleep. A moderately drowsy character who is made moderately drowsy again becomes severely drowsy, and a moderately drowsy character who becomes severely drowsy becomes asleep. A severely drowsy character who becomes severely drowsy again becomes asleep.

I see Precise Shot and firing into melee from a different perspective. I actually think it is a trained skill that takes time to master. That is probably the Marine in me and having had CQB and advanced CQB training. Firing weapons in close quarters with bodies moving all around and things happening in a split second is probably the hardest thing you can do with a ranged weapon. My opinion...not that it matters much but I can understand that rule.

Fighters, again this is personal opinion and nothing more, get shafted at 10th level and above. Martial skills seem to diminish somewhat in the game as all the other classes (excluding rogues and other martial/skill based classes that are stuck in the same boat as fighters) take a back seat to special ability/magical ability classes. Rogues and Fighters really fall into this boat. I try to set the games I run in a manner I think best allow me to work in the world as I see it we play (if that makes any sense at all). To me, the martial classes need to have a bigger impact at the higher levels and part of that is setting them up to have a more profound impact later by building them up a bit more :) Conversations like this are good to have by the way helps to make us a stronger group :)

Fighters, and this is my opinion and nothing more, get shafted from 1st level. ;)

Seriously - I play a *lot* of low level games, and no PbP character has ever made it past 5th or 6th level, so giving them more power at 10th or building them toward late level play is too little too late. But I like their simplicity and rely on character rather than mechanic to play them in a fulfilling manner...

Fighters, and this is my opinion and nothing more, get shafted from 1st level. ;)

Seriously - I play a *lot* of low-level games, and no PbP character has ever made it past 5th or 6th level, so giving them more power at 10th or building them toward late level play is too little too late. But I like their simplicity and rely on character rather than mechanic to play them in a fulfilling manner...

I can't argue that point...which is why we use the variant fighter.