# Navior's Age of Worms (Inactive)Game Master Navior

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There are arguments to be made against random systems. I don't deny that. In many ways, it comes down to personal taste, and I just happen to like a little bit of randomness in my games. Not too much. I don't like the old style of rolling all your abilities in order (S, I, W, D, C, Ch) and then deciding what you were playing based on that (even though I used that back in the day). But a little bit of randomness where it hurts least I do like.

In the long run, rolling for hit points will average out (which can be an argument for just assigning the average, I agree). My system will result in a little higher than average in the long run. Level 2 is the level where there is the most difference. You can potentially double your hit points at level 2. This can never happen again, even if you roll a 1 at level 2 (short of adding feats like Toughness). By level 20, the number of hp you can gain, even if you roll maximum is somewhat insignificant compared to the number of hp you already have.

Of course, right now you are level 2, and this is the time when rolling hit points has the most risk and thus the most potential for disappointment. But that is the way it is.

And so without further ado, the requested "secret" roll...

1d8 ⇒ 2

There was a bizarre double post there giving two different rolls, both of them low, so I deleted the lower of the two (yes, the other was a 1). It's times like these when even the mathematical part of my mind that has taught statistics wants to abandon logical thought and start believing that the dice gods have cursed you. :(

I only pose this from a theory standpoint. I'm not arguing your decision... just the basis of your decision. (which is much better, right?)

While i understand that it seems logical to assume that your hp will average out over time. The reality is that every dice roll has an equal chance of rolling minimum as it does maximum. So it's slightly flawed to assume that it will average out, isn't it? When it's just as likely to roll all low numbers (below half your HD) as it is that you'll roll as many high ones.

Again, this is me simply arguing with the foundation of yoru statement... not so much to get Dara more hp.

Though, to be honest, Dara being able to rely on a high hp pool helps us all, in the long run.

Beargle "Bear" Zstellian wrote:

I only pose this from a theory standpoint. I'm not arguing your decision... just the basis of your decision. (which is much better, right?)

While i understand that it seems logical to assume that your hp will average out over time. The reality is that every dice roll has an equal chance of rolling minimum as it does maximum. So it's slightly flawed to assume that it will average out, isn't it? When it's just as likely to roll all low numbers (below half your HD) as it is that you'll roll as many high ones.

Again, this is me simply arguing with the foundation of yoru statement... not so much to get Dara more hp.

Though, to be honest, Dara being able to rely on a high hp pool helps us all, in the long run.

From a statistical standpoint, you're half right. Once the previous rolls are made, each individual roll has the same chance for any particular roll. However, over the long run, those rolls do start to average out. It would take too long to go through the math, but the best way to demonstrate is just to show a whole bunch of rolls. The average of a d8 is 4.5, so the average of 20d8 will be 90. Most rolls will be in that vicinity. The likelihood of getting 20 (the minimum) is 8.67x10^-17%. The likelihood of getting 160 (the maximum) is also 8.67x10^-17%.

20d8 ⇒ (2, 1, 4, 2, 4, 4, 7, 4, 6, 8, 7, 2, 2, 4, 4, 5, 3, 4, 5, 1) = 79
20d8 ⇒ (4, 8, 6, 7, 5, 6, 3, 2, 5, 8, 3, 2, 5, 3, 7, 6, 3, 3, 2, 4) = 92
20d8 ⇒ (5, 5, 3, 7, 3, 1, 2, 4, 3, 4, 2, 5, 4, 2, 3, 5, 8, 8, 7, 2) = 83
20d8 ⇒ (1, 1, 7, 5, 3, 3, 8, 5, 3, 4, 6, 1, 5, 1, 8, 5, 4, 1, 4, 5) = 80
20d8 ⇒ (1, 2, 1, 2, 8, 4, 5, 5, 5, 4, 6, 4, 7, 8, 8, 1, 3, 1, 2, 8) = 85
20d8 ⇒ (3, 5, 6, 3, 8, 4, 5, 2, 6, 1, 5, 8, 3, 4, 3, 6, 8, 1, 1, 7) = 89
20d8 ⇒ (6, 6, 8, 3, 4, 8, 7, 4, 2, 7, 6, 4, 3, 1, 3, 8, 1, 7, 2, 8) = 98
20d8 ⇒ (5, 8, 4, 3, 5, 8, 7, 8, 7, 7, 7, 8, 8, 4, 5, 5, 1, 4, 1, 2) = 107
20d8 ⇒ (3, 1, 2, 3, 7, 6, 6, 8, 5, 4, 6, 7, 5, 4, 4, 6, 5, 7, 2, 1) = 92
20d8 ⇒ (8, 5, 2, 3, 2, 1, 7, 2, 8, 2, 2, 6, 2, 6, 7, 7, 6, 5, 3, 1) = 85
20d8 ⇒ (2, 6, 3, 7, 7, 7, 5, 8, 1, 5, 3, 4, 6, 2, 5, 8, 2, 5, 1, 6) = 93
20d8 ⇒ (8, 5, 4, 5, 8, 6, 4, 5, 3, 2, 1, 6, 3, 3, 6, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2) = 77
20d8 ⇒ (8, 2, 1, 6, 4, 4, 8, 2, 6, 2, 4, 2, 3, 4, 3, 5, 7, 5, 5, 8) = 89
20d8 ⇒ (7, 2, 2, 7, 4, 1, 4, 8, 5, 5, 5, 4, 4, 5, 4, 1, 6, 2, 2, 5) = 83
20d8 ⇒ (4, 1, 5, 3, 5, 6, 1, 6, 5, 7, 2, 3, 1, 5, 2, 8, 4, 6, 3, 3) = 80
20d8 ⇒ (3, 1, 7, 5, 1, 7, 1, 3, 1, 4, 5, 3, 7, 3, 8, 8, 2, 8, 4, 3) = 84
20d8 ⇒ (5, 6, 7, 7, 5, 3, 3, 2, 3, 1, 2, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6, 7, 2, 3, 8) = 90

Notice how the results pretty much all hover in the vicinity of 90, with very few being more than 10 away. The greater the number of rolls, the closer to the average you will get. 100d8 will average 450.

100d8 ⇒ (8, 1, 7, 7, 5, 6, 3, 4, 8, 1, 1, 1, 8, 4, 5, 7, 8, 6, 1, 4, 5, 1, 4, 5, 5, 3, 1, 3, 1, 6, 2, 5, 6, 5, 4, 2, 3, 8, 5, 6, 7, 6, 1, 7, 4, 8, 4, 6, 7, 8, 8, 7, 3, 1, 3, 3, 5, 4, 1, 6, 6, 6, 5, 1, 8, 1, 7, 3, 3, 8, 3, 3, 4, 3, 7, 7, 5, 1, 4, 5, 1, 2, 2, 5, 5, 5, 1, 6, 5, 2, 6, 6, 1, 8, 8, 2, 3, 1, 3, 8) = 444

Another way to look at it is this:

Each time you roll, you have an equal chance to get the same result you got last time. However, you have a much better chance of getting a different result. If you roll 4 on a d8 the first time, on the second roll, you have a 1 in 8 chance of rolling 4 again and a 7 in 8 chance of rolling something different. Over time, you're going to keep rolling different numbers, but since there are only 8 possible results, those differences start to average out.

Yah, i see what you're saying. At that point, it's down to what you said earlier... if you're banking on class power staying relatively in check because of the apparent consistent law of averages (not using caps here because i don't know if this is the actual Law of Averages), why not simply use the average.

The answer, of course, is (as you stated above) preference. Do you prefer to go with something that is guaranteed average or gamble a little in hopes that you can pull ahead with some lucky consistently high rolls with the risk being potentially coming under the average.

Me? I'm fine either way (and clearly benefit from your random version choice this level), but it's always good to refine your arguments and perspective.

Also, I just realized... since putting on the leather armor, I haven't made a single arcane spell failure roll. It's pretty low, but i've forgotten it every time.

I'll do my best to remember it moving forward, but I didnt' want you to think i was trying to pull something over on you, Nav.

Heh, I had completely forgotten about it, too! It's pretty rare that I've had anyone with a spell failure chance, so I'm not used to it. :)

I have a die rolling glitch in my last post, I believe the bluff check should be a total of 14, FYI.

Hopefully Gary can nail this down, he he.

Male Human Cleric 1/Bard 1

One other argument for rolling for PC hps is that then you alo roll for monster hps. This prevents players from "knowing" that a certain monster will "always" have a certain hp total and planning accordingly. The Chel boarders from my game all had individual hp rolls and there was one poor schmuck kicking around with one glorious hit point. I was so hoping to see somebody just nick that guy and get a shock when he went down, but he got in Biter's way at some point and that was that.

"THAT'ING WAS ONE TASTEY HITPOINT!!!!!!"

Beargle "Bear" Zstellian wrote:
I don't remember Bear ever putting a rank in linguistics, and I don't hve it on my char sheet... maybe you're thinking of another character?

Guess I was thinking of Freddie. I'll double-check his languages.

Venedictus wrote:
Venedictus' knowledge is fine, +1 from bardic knowledge.

Ah, that's what messed me up! You listed only 1 knowledge skill on his sheet and didn't list his untrained skill in all the others. I've gone ahead and added your untrained modifier in all the skills since Venedictus can now make them untrained.

Navoir wrote:

And so without further ado, the requested "secret" roll...

1d8 => 2

Rockin. Well I guess Bear will have to take over as the tank now that he has more HP than either the Paladin or the Barbarian...

Fredrik "Flash" Williams wrote:

I have a die rolling glitch in my last post, I believe the bluff check should be a total of 14, FYI.

Hopefully Gary can nail this down, he he.

Ha ha. I read this post before reading the other one, so I actually took you seriously at first. That bonus 6d6 is quite the glitch. :)

Navior wrote:
Fredrik "Flash" Williams wrote:

I have a die rolling glitch in my last post, I believe the bluff check should be a total of 14, FYI.

Hopefully Gary can nail this down, he he.

Ha ha. I read this post before reading the other one, so I actually took you seriously at first. That bonus 6d6 is quite the glitch. :)

Actually, it looks like that 6d6 was a "glitch" of sorts. And here I thought you did it deliberately as a joke. According to the dice glitch thread, you just put the closing dice tag [/dice] in the wrong spot, so the boards tried to interpret a bunch of words as a dice roll and came up with 6d6.

And the party loot:

-Apparatus
You haven't actually moved the apparatus yet, due to its weight.
Fredrik Appraise: 1d20 + 5 ⇒ (5) + 5 = 10
You're really not sure what its value might be, but probably worth a lot. Allustan is the only person you know of in town who might be interested.

-Glass Shards
Fredrik Appraise: 1d20 + 5 ⇒ (16) + 5 = 21
The shards are of a glass-like stone substance, similar to obsidian, but not identical. You can't be sure of their value, but to the right person, they're probably worth a lot. The jeweller, Tidwoad, might possibly know more. The only other person in town who might be interested is Allustan. Otherwise you'll need to go to Korvosa or Kaer Maga to find a buyer.

-Armband /Leaf motif (?)
Fredrik Appraise: 1d20 + 5 ⇒ (2) + 5 = 7
Fredrik is quite convinced this is worth at least 500 gp. :)
It could probably be sold at Tidwoad's, or to an elf in town, such as Vanelle or Ellival Moonmeadow.

-suit of very fine leather armor. MW (Bear)

-silver ring
Fredrik Appraise: 1d20 + 5 ⇒ (20) + 5 = 25
Worth 75 gp.

-4 bronze badges of the symbol of a horned snake on it. (Aspis Consortium .)
Fredrik Appraise: 1d20 + 5 ⇒ (15) + 5 = 20
The badges are worth 10 gp each, although other members of the Aspis Consortium might be willing to pay more to keep them out of non-member hands (of course, they might be willing to go to other lengths as well). Can probably be sold at Tidwoad's.

*three vials (Potion of CLW) Fredrik, Dara and Bear

*a pearl
Fredrik Spellcraft: 1d20 + 10 ⇒ (20) + 10 = 30
This a 1st-level pearl of power.

*a gold ring crafted to look like a feather wrapped round so that its two ends touch.(Ring of Feather fall) (Dara)

*+1 short sword (Dara)

-Pedestal
Fredrik Appraise: 1d20 + 5 ⇒ (14) + 5 = 19

-MW Quarterstaff (Fredrik)

- rusty longsword,
Worthless.

-suit of masterwork banded mail.
Standard market price would put it at 400 gp.

62 sp, 85 gp, and 3 pp
Worth 121.2 gp. :)

The weapons can all be sold at either the Captain's Blade or Vanelle's. The armour can be sold at Vanelle's.
In the e-mail I sent out, I mentioned some items being sold at the General Store, which was silly of me. It should have been Tidwoad's.

For selling items, I generally allow you to make a Diplomacy check (for expedience's sake, one check per individual being sold to, covers all items being sold to that individual). The DC is dependent on the attitude of the person you're selling to, but an indifferent attitude (the usual) has a DC of 15. If you meet the DC, you can sell gems and jewellery at the appraised value, and weapons and armour (and other gear) at half market value. The more you beat the DC by, the better a deal you'll get. Likewise, the more you fail by, the worse a deal you'll get.

Navior wrote:
-suit of very fine leather armor. MW (Bear)

I'd just assume sell this (unless someone thinks better of it) and pick up a regular set of leather armor. All the benefits of masterwork are lost on leather armor, and Bear is not all that into "lookin' snazzy".

Is there anyone else who could make better use of this +1 shortsword? I mean unless we fight something with DR/Magic, I'm pretty unlikely to use it. I'd much rather sell it for 50% and get the following:

530 mw composite shortbow (Str 14)
250 mw chain shirt
165 mw buckler
100 mw thieves' tools

Any objections?

The only suggestion I'd make is to return it to the 'sell' pile and have that be part of the money to be divided out. I only say this because it's not an item that helps any one of us specifically, so it makes sense to sell it, and since it's one of the more expensive items, you benefitting from all the gold from that one item seems a little one-sided.

On the other hand, outfitting one of our front-liners fro success is always a win in my book.

anyone else wanna weigh in on this one?

That works for me too. I figure we can always keep a scroll or oil of magic weapon handy for in a pinch and free up some resources for now.

Also, since we have 2 arcane casters, I'd suggest the pearl go to our one divine caster (i.e. mirror situation to the setup we have in Nazard's game).

Yah, I'm wishing I'd chosen that spell. if we get a scroll fo it, I'll try to get it in my spell book. That way I can make more scrolls (or Freddy, for that matter).

HP: 25/25 | AC:17 ; T:16 ; FF:14 ; CMD:21 | Fort:+4 ; Ref:+6 ; Will:+7 | Init:+2 ; PER:+8

Since UU can't cast a spell yet, I think the Pearl should go to Vene. And since the 'cash on the barrel head' check is a Diplo roll... I'm thinking Vene is our main man for that.

Can we Assist the roll?

yah, i would have said Venny or Freddy. But the priest/bard could use some combat functionality.

Udaya Udas wrote:

Since UU can't cast a spell yet, I think the Pearl should go to Vene. And since the 'cash on the barrel head' check is a Diplo roll... I'm thinking Vene is our main man for that.

Can we Assist the roll?

Yes, you can assist the roll.

Here is Freddie's Aid Another Diplomacy roll:

1d20 ⇒ 3

HP: 25/25 | AC:17 ; T:16 ; FF:14 ; CMD:21 | Fort:+4 ; Ref:+6 ; Will:+7 | Init:+2 ; PER:+8

UU's Aid on Diplomacy for the first three 'sales people' Vene haggles with:

Diplomacy #1 1d20 + 5 ⇒ (5) + 5 = 10
Diplomacy #2 1d20 + 5 ⇒ (9) + 5 = 14
Diplomacy #3 1d20 + 5 ⇒ (11) + 5 = 16

I'd make some defensive scrolls for folks, but without the monies, i got nothin.

Which reminds me, Bear spends part of the day refilling his component pouches.

Naz, what scrolls can we assume are available in town?

Unfortunately, magic items are in very small supply in Baslwief. The Captain's Blade and Vanelle's occasionally have a couple of magic weapons. There are no regular sellers of other kinds of magic items; however, Allustan is known to make scrolls on commission.

Hmmmm... all roads seem to point to Allustan.

Male Human Cleric 1/Bard 1

Venedictus diplomacy roll to sell loot to Vanelle: 1d20 + 10 + 1 ⇒ (4) + 10 + 1 = 15(Guidance) Booo

Venedictus diplomacy roll to sell loot to Tidwoad's: 1d20 + 10 + 1 ⇒ (14) + 10 + 1 = 25(Guidance) Much better

Venedictus diplomacy roll to sell loot to Allustan: 1d20 + 10 + 1 ⇒ (20) + 10 + 1 = 31(Guidance) Oh yeah! Ka-ching! Pay up, old man!

Venedictus wrote:

Venedictus diplomacy roll to sell loot to Vanelle: 1d20+10+1(Guidance) Booo

Venedictus diplomacy roll to sell loot to Tidwoad's: 1d20+10+1(Guidance) Much better

Venedictus diplomacy roll to sell loot to Allustan: 1d20+10+1(Guidance) Oh yeah! Ka-ching! Pay up, old man!

Udaya's aid another checks provide him with +2 to each of those rolls.

Vanelle is not hugely taken in by Venedictus's and Udaya's charms, but she does give them a fair price for three items. She's actually somewhat excited about the +1 short sword, although she requires confirmation of its magical properties first (which she is able to do with a wand of detect magic and a Use Magic Device check).
She gives 55 gp for the masterwork leather armour, 200 gp for the masterwork banded mail, and 1155 gp for the sword, for a total of 1410 gp.

Unfortunately, Tidwoad starts with an attitude of unfriendly to anyone who's not a gnome, boosting the DC to 20. However, you still beat that by a very good margin. He's quite impressed by Venedictus and Udaya and agrees to waive his usual 5% service fee for non-gnomes. He also offers very nice prices on everything, except the armband, which he insists is not worth 500 gp, no matter what Freddy might say. :)
He pays 85 gp for the armband, 85 gp for the silver ring, 45 gp total for all four armbands, and 275 gp for the pedestal, for a total of 490 gp. He is not interested in the shards, saying he has no idea what they are.

As for Allustan, we'll play out any sales to him in the game thread (you can still use that great roll though).

Altogether, you make 1900 gp.

Male Human Cleric 1/Bard 1

How many of us are there in total? Venedictus, Fredrik, Udaya, Dara, Bear. Anybody I'm missing? 475gp a piece isn't bad if I haven't had a total brain fart and forgotten somebody.

We're rich, i tella ya! RICH!

.
.
.
.
.
475
-100 mw thieves' tools
375
-165 mw buckler
210
-250 mw chain shirt
-------
-40 short

How much would Dara be able to get by selling off her existing wooden shield and studded leather, and does anyone have a bit extra to cover the difference? (Mind you, I'm assuming the standard prices for the 3 items I'd like to buy. Not sure if Vene's monster rolls would yield any discounts that might make-up/increase the difference.)

AS i said before, i'll help cover your difference. Once you get it all figured out, just let me know how much to pull from my char sheet. My purchases will be relatively light for this trip.

Cool, thanks man. Just need to hear from Nav on what shakes out...

Male Human Cleric 1/Bard 1

Venedictus will go to the other weapon store in town looking for a masterwork glaive.

Diplomacy check to barter a good price: 1d20 + 10 ⇒ (13) + 10 = 23
Bluff check to keep from giving anything away: 1d20 + 5 + 1 ⇒ (3) + 5 + 1 = 9Guidance on this I think.

HP: 25/25 | AC:17 ; T:16 ; FF:14 ; CMD:21 | Fort:+4 ; Ref:+6 ; Will:+7 | Init:+2 ; PER:+8

Navior:
Does Vanelle have a compound shortbow (masterwork or not) built to a 16 STR? If so, does it cost the standard price or should I make a Diplomacy roll to see what kind of deal can be got?

Is there a masterwork scimitar to be found at the Captaain's Blade?

The Captain's Blade, run by Tyrol Ebberly, has an astounding array of melee weapons. Ebberly does indeed have both a masterwork glaive and a masterwork scimitar, as well as masterwork versions of just about every other simple and martial melee weapons (no ranged weapons or exotic weapons though). He eagerly shows them off, and questions you (particularly Venedictus) on what you've been up to, and where you've found the money for such fine weapons. He offers 10% off the standard market value if you agree to tell him the full story of how you came across the money. Otherwise, they cost market value.

Vanelle has compound bows of all kinds, including masterwork ones. She sells them at market value or you can use a Diplomacy check to try to talk her down (at the risk of alienating her with a bad roll). Market price for a composite short bow (Str 16) is 300 gp. A masterwork is 600 gp.

I'd suggest against divulging the source of our income... we can get the money to cover the cost of not getting the discount.

Male Human Cleric 1/Bard 1
Beargle "Bear" Zstellian wrote:
I'd suggest against divulging the source of our income... we can get the money to cover the cost of not getting the discount.

Agreed. Venedictus will shell out the full 300+ gp for the masterwork glaive while attempting to divert the fellow with compliments on the weapon.

HP: 25/25 | AC:17 ; T:16 ; FF:14 ; CMD:21 | Fort:+4 ; Ref:+6 ; Will:+7 | Init:+2 ; PER:+8

UU splurges on the lovely composite shortbow built to her STR.

I'll update her sheet when I have a moment...
Update Done.

Freddie and Bear have exchanged spells in their spellbooks, Freddie has copied Feather Fall, and Expeditious Retreat...cost for copying have been deducted.

And Bear will take Disguise Self and Magic Missile. 20g down the tube.

So, Bear and Dara wait outside the bar and stalk them back to their place to find where they live? I'm uncomfortable attacking him without full numbers or before we know what he's capable of. I mean, he's feared, but I don't know if that means we're capable of taking him down or not.

This sound like at least an initial idea?

HP: 25/25 | AC:17 ; T:16 ; FF:14 ; CMD:21 | Fort:+4 ; Ref:+6 ; Will:+7 | Init:+2 ; PER:+8
Beargle "Bear" Zstellian wrote:

So, Bear and Dara wait outside the bar and stalk them back to their place to find where they live? I'm uncomfortable attacking him without full numbers or before we know what he's capable of. I mean, he's feared, but I don't know if that means we're capable of taking him down or not.

This sound like at least an initial idea?

I think our stealthy folks stalk them and the rest of us keep watch on our stalkers from further back so that if something goes sideways, we can run in there and thump these guys as a group.

Udaya Udas wrote:
Beargle "Bear" Zstellian wrote:

So, Bear and Dara wait outside the bar and stalk them back to their place to find where they live? I'm uncomfortable attacking him without full numbers or before we know what he's capable of. I mean, he's feared, but I don't know if that means we're capable of taking him down or not.

This sound like at least an initial idea?

I think our stealthy folks stalk them and the rest of us keep watch on our stalkers from further back so that if something goes sideways, we can run in there and thump these guys as a group.

This plan works for me.

Ditto.

Male Human Cleric 1/Bard 1

Venedictus is fine with it also. He figures he should stay back behind the people who are staying back from the stealthy people, just in case.;)

Regarding my Favored Enemy: I don't plan on taking any more levels in Ranger, so you should only have to factor in the +2 on undead stuff(s)... ever.

HP: 25/25 | AC:17 ; T:16 ; FF:14 ; CMD:21 | Fort:+4 ; Ref:+6 ; Will:+7 | Init:+2 ; PER:+8

Navior, what are the laws around these parts about Filge's work?

Is grave-robbing/body-snatching illegal? If so, what kind of penalties does it carry? How about necromancy - is it criminal?

I'm trying to figure out what UU can reasonably do here in terms of punishing this guy - chase him out of town, imprisonment, death?

This, of course, assumes that whatever party he has going on upstairs doesn't change the situation significantly.

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