Mm. Hmm...
I think I know a secret that isn't dangerous to us :D
I wonder about the burden of proof. Hmm ... We/Miranda do know of a murderer that is yet free.
Aaand you are right. Thats a nope on at least 2 of those.
I am fine with Gunsmithing(which is intended to help Gunslingers get going - and what a clumsy Feat it is) being applied as means of "helping to create creative powder-based uses".
But checkless crafting? Nope. You did invest ranks in craft Alchemy on the basis that Craft(Guns)/Craft(Gunsmithing) was not needed due to the Feat, so you are already getting mileage out of it that way.
I will not apply it to 2 craft skills(I know it would be selective for the second, but with 3 people capable in it you can simply focus on those things that would be affected).
Reduced material costs? Not happening, either. Gunsmithing gives a reduction to 1/10th. In a free market economy, that's cutting your expenses by about 2/3rds(down from 1/3th of retail value). Every Alchemist would pick up Gunsmithing simple to increase their profits. But it only applies to specific items, you say? Well, doesn't matter, they'll pick up a variant that makes THEIR stuff cheaper to produce - if there is none, that would be unfair.
Less time required...I would say "fine" if not for the Gunsmithing Feats ridiculous acceleration. We can do something like "treat the craft result as 5 higher for the purpose of calculating progress". But working faster comes at a price - if you hurry up and mess up in the process, we roll on the alchemical mishap table of spontaneous alchemy - it's only logical that you can only work faster than others on things you have experience with(that is, where the ranks you have make a mishap unlikely).
Doesn't help your case that the Feat is a class freebie, not something you actually picked up spending limited resources on it(such as Feat slots).
(Also, yes, Accuser Devil, of course. I was checking Demons Lords for a different game earlier and got mentally stuck in the Abyss.)
Alright, I can see why the checkless crafting would right be right out.
I'd like to argue the point on the reduced materials cost, however, in that it could represent--due to intimate familiarity with the key ingriedent and its constituent elements beyond what other alchemists generally have--knowing how to make the most efficient use of black powder. So while a reduction to 1/10 of the standard material cost is right out, would you allow a reduction of 1/4 (under standard crafting rules, normal cost is 1/3) and 1/5 (for Unchained crafting rules, where normal cost is 1/4)?
I'd also like to present a similar reasoning--familiarity with powder allowing for more efficient work to be done with it--on the subject of crafting time. Would 1 day of work per 250gp of finished product be an acceptable amount?
I would like point out that A) anything I'm using for various tyoes of "boom" isn't going in Boros' gun, so I'll need to balance the usage, and 2) you're the final arbiter of when Boros has such material and how much of it as well.
Your final ruling is?
The problem is that a.: No other class gets such a "freebie" which results in, for the current example, the Gunslinger ultimately being better at Alchemy than the Alchemist.(who gets a bonus to the skill, but pays full material price and no accelerated crafting).
And b.: If you are working faster based on familiarity, then others would do so as well in their areas of expertise. ESPECIALLY if they make a living of that/have a profession related. Boros is a Soldier, thats his profession, his calling. When he has time and nothing else to do, he can work on some explosive toys.
The NPC Specialist that is toiling day in, day out doing that same labor 6 days a week since 20 years? Can you imagine how efficient he would have to be in his job compared to someone who just started out?
There's no generic "speed up craft" feats that give you blanket amounts of daily progress. Except Gunsmithing which applies to guns and their ammunition. Everybody else has to play by the rules.
For sake of example, a Pellet Grenade has a DC of 25. For a Base Progress of 8 GP and a cost of 50 GP. Someone who can just do the DC will then take 6-7 days for one of those.
But wait, we have someone experienced with this matter, has years of experience, uses crafters fortune, a specialised lab, competent assistants and what not. He can do DC 40 and his progress quadruples. Suddenly he can do a Grenade in 2 days.
Opposed to that, you are suggesting to create 5 Grenades a day on the basis you know how guns work. Preferably without needing to beat a DC.
It's simply not working for me on basis of comparison. If I'm giving you that kind of mileage out of a freebie class feat intended for a completely different purpose.
Your point A.: only is relevant if i strictly monitor point B.: of limiting your access. Where the idea was that as your number of supporters and members grow, that limitation would be significantly relaxed, or removed altogether if you manage to raid the Hellknights supplies.
And only resources would be relevant, with the ridiculous amount of ammunition you can produce in a single day with Gunsmithing(so they can stay restocked in time-sensitive AP's) you can work on everything else, so time invested is not really a factor, especially since we are not in much of a hurry.
My offer of letting you work fast (treating the result as 5 higher to determine progress) already adds a 1x multiplier to base progress(as every 5 you beat the DC by do so), with the small penalty of mishaps potentially being more devastating(but wether you risk those or stick to non-risky stuff is entirely within your control).
As said, I can see where you come from, but stretching out flavor to include other things not intended(or even mentioned in the Feat) would lead to all kind of rules-problems and mechanical problems, because there's a ton of Feats that could, flavorwise, cover things that are not intended or mechanically acceptable.
While in some cases I have different opinions from RAW(e.g. vital strike on charge or spring attack), I am not keen on opening a can of worms that includes "possible readings" and "mechanical bonuses by flavor interpretation".
The offer I made is a minor bonus, and was made because I like creative thinking and players considering their options. Not because I think the Gunsmithing Feat should apply to anything except guns and their ammo. That feat is a crutch that was necessary to even make firearms an option during the early levels. It does that. But I don't think it should do more.
Ooooh oooh minor note that doesn't really add anything of value but my sense of technically correct compels me - Alchemists gets Swift Alchemy at level 3 halving their craft time. And Instant Alchemy at level 18 to make it (almost) instant :P
Yes Miranda. But as the example given with pellet grenades, at "half time" even with DC 40 crafting, thats one grenade a day.
A proposal of 250 GP autoprogress is 5 times that. So I stand by what I said, Gunsmithing, if applicable this way, would make a gunsmith a better alchemist than an alchemist. But yes, I misworded, he DOES get accelerated crafting, but not "automatic progress" on crafting that accelerates crafting to ludicrous levels.
More to the point, there is also the Feat Instant Alchemy, which DOES cover speedy alchemical creation. So letting another Feat that does other things as well outshine it(even for a subset) seems quite counterintuitive.
Level 18 Alchemist: Yes, normal AP's go to Level 16, PFS ends at Level 12. Even in AP's that are stretched to Level 20, you get 3 levels worth of instant alchemy. I mean, if you really need that tanglefoot bag right now to restrain that Pit Fiend at Level 18.
@Miranda: If only Boros were an alchemist, eh? I kind of wonder if there is an alchemist archetype for gunslingers, or vice-versa.
@Mordred: Alas, my visions of black powder supremacy have been most cruelly dashed. Then most ruthlessly stomped. Then set afire. And the ashes most vigorously pissed upon, just because. And the stinking puddle of mud salted to ensure that no seed of hope shall ever take root there again.
Oh well. I suggested, you countered, I appealed, you ruled, and that's that. I'll take what you've offered and get on with it. If you'd be so kind as to present it in an appropriate format that I can throw into Boros' profile, I'd appreciate it.
There's the Grenadier Alchemist archetype. While it doesn't actually have anything to do specifically with guns it has the hilarious ability of being able to stuff an entire tangle-foot bag into a firearm bullet.
Which sounds like a really good idea :P
@Format: When crafting Alchemical items or weapons that make use of powder(or mechanically equivalent substances), this Feat allows the user to threat his crafting result as 5 higher when determining crafting progress. However, if the crafting roll results in a mishap, instead of the regular penalty, a d6 is rolled and the table for alchemical mishaps consulted to detail the effects of the mishap.
That sound ok? We do know what's meant, so I figure it should be fine?
That'll work, I just need something that's clear and easy to read, with all the relevant details included. Otherwise I'll have to dig through a vast backlog of post when my goldfish-like memory inevitably drops something vital :p.
Oooh oooh I found another useless but interesting thingy! The Villain Codex has this thing that lets you cut down crafting price to 1/5 of the original for some *uh* drawbacks.
Doesn't work for one use items thought : /
But what if we made an reusable grenade ...?
Miranda, do you really want to trust your life to an explosive device intentionally made as poorly as possible?
I'll tell you right now, Boros would pistol whip the ever-loving crap out of anyone, himself included, responsible for making such a thing. After backing well away from it in a cold fear-sweat, that is.
Why, good find, Miranda!
Funny thats in the villain Codex.
Now, I'm sure I'll find some good use for that.
One interesting use is for ammunition. This "a weapon takes the same amount of damage it deals in an attack (minus its lower hardness rating)" would mean that your ammunition most likely self destruct completely (more then ammunition usually does!).
It's like those urban legend ice ball paint-ball guns!
Or one could, with a bit of planning, destroy a murder weapon right as you commit the murder! "Oh look officer I couldn't possibly be the killer - I don't even have a weapon! You are of course free to search around ..."
And, back to ammunition, you can basically make frangible rounds. There ought to be some fun and totally nice applications for those too : )
@Boros - You could make some guns with it and sell to the hellknights :P?
That way their natural tendency to explode and this feat might convince them not to pursue black-powder weaponry ^^
Actually, for ammunition, I'll be trying for something different: bullets that contain a single dose of alchemical splash weapon, to be delivered right to the target along with the bullet itself. Sort of like how raining arrows deliver a single flask's worth of holy water with a ranged attack.
Also, explosives that do the same, but with more *boom* involved.
Don't know if Mordred will let it pass, but since he's open to suggestions, I can at least put it out there.
And why I am so mightly determined to get Boros something beyond the usual when it comes to guns and related technologies? Two reasons! First, the Thrune goons have the weight of numbers and money on their side for gun creation. Boros needs to think well outside the box to offset that. Second, a successful development in the field--with verifiable combat results to back it--could be what Boros needs to make his reputation back home in Alkenstar as one of the legends of the gun.
There's an very overpriced magical ammo for that :P
Also isn't there the classic, even more expensive, option of flinging a bag of holding to do that? Though I'm not sure we want to introduce magic-kludged weaponry into the world as our poor characters will have to live in it :P
---
Also!
Our heroic effort to liberate our lawyer. Anyone have any more ideas?
Otherwise I vote for that we let Lily's friend take another look and then decide on something based on that information and our previous ideas.
Been a week quite full of work. I came home late every single day so far...I'll try and update today, otherwise will do so tomorrow, as I'll be helping with/attending a friends birthday party on saturday.
That said, to help with considering options and actions, I did reveal the part of the map that will be uncovered by Lily's friend(based on Miranda having heared something in the area, then just going along since it's one-way.) More in-depth description coming up, but yeah, those are livestock-holding pens repurposed as cells. Females lower series, Males upper series.
In yellow are the locations of the "roof entrances" seen earlier.
And yes, thats Aldous in that one Cell.
All right!
We have a decent idea of how the place looks.
Any ideas from that?
One thing I'm thinking is that the cells are awfully close to the outer wall. If we had some way to say explosively remove a piece of the wall in good old western style how to we feel about our chances to simply snatch the prisoners and make a run for it?
That way we could stage some ambushes or hurdles or distractions or something and take a way their home ground advantage.
But everything would have to go *fast*. And we can't really screw up, that means we will most likely get caught and so on ...
@Mordred - I noticed the warehouse wasn't very much populated? Is this because our intell isn't good enough to find patrols and more prisoners - or is it because we didn't find any patrols or more prisoners?
If there is only two people to rescue things would undoubtedly be easier : )
That is because flavor text is missing from the in-game description as I did not get around to finish my post yet. I just wanted you guys to get some thoughts going as we'll need a plan of action :)
The cells are quite populated...there's also wardens with the prisoners, and you can assume abaout half of the beds in the makeshift-cells to be occupied...I merely placed Aldous and his ladyfriend in their respective cells.
I added Guards where they are 'static'.
In the lower area, there's makeshift sleeping areas for the guards, on the floor(basically military tents/bedrolls/blankets used for indoor camping.).
The lower right entrance is not guarded, but double-barred from the inside(And the sleeping place of guards is nearby...loud noises could wake those).
That makes it about ~40 prisoners, give or take a few.
That's a lot. It's going to be hard if not impossible to sneak that many people anywhere. And feed and hide them afterwards, if we get that far.
If we were s%%@ty people we could simply let everyone loose and then simply grab our people letting the rest be a distraction. Easier, but that doesn't feel like a nice or proper thing to do.
So we either have to find a way to make ~40 people really really sneaky or remove anything that could raise the alarm.
I count six fixed guards, the interrogator, plus the known devil. And then probably at least that many guards again for another shift. Also people on the roof. (14 guard dorm beds - that we can see.) And within ten minutes most likely the dottari too.
That's a lot. Maybe we could take them one group by one if we were a party of rogues focused on sneaky alpha-strike. Maybe.
Another idea is simply to let loose the prisoners and somehow arm them turning the odds in our favour. But that feels like a poor idea - it is going to be much harder to sneak a bunch of blood soaked people around. Not to mention the injuries they are surely to sustain...
So we sorta need a way to spirit away ~40 people from under the nose of the inquisition. And I'm not really sure how : /
Maybe - if we had lots of time - we could dig a tunnel underneath the place and then simultaneously breach all the cells. The fact that the guards are a bit further away (and behind locked bars :P) might give us time to withdraw and collapse the tunnel behind us. Maybe. And we need lots of time ...
Thoughts : )?
Two guards can be removed on the roof, probably pretty easily, if you can get the drop on them.
The roof entrance is to the north, by Lily's token, yes? There's two more guards that can likely easily and quickly be dispatched upon entering from the roof, if I am reading the map right.
Aldous, if aware that something is going on, can delay the two guards in the cell block, or at least damage them a bit, before they make an appearance. I'm assuming there's line of sight from the cell to the guards, though looking at the map, there may not be.
It is likely that one of the guards in the cell block has keys to the cells on them, but not guaranteed. It is more time consuming, but Aldous can blast the locks open. We'd need to hold the doorway to the west and the hall to the southeast.
What is the building made of?
We can't reliably get everyone out, what with there being dozens of people, if that's the case. As such, we may be forced to leave some to their own devices: Flee the prison, or stay in an unlocked cage and hope for some sort of clemency.
We also have to recognize that the situation is a bit much. We want to help them all, but we can't handle that many, and this is an Asmodean prison: Not all of them will be good, and not all of them will actually be prisoners, probably. I figure you could make some serious bank living in squalor and taking a few punches and then snitching out prisoners. So we have to assume at least one of these guys is a 'career prisoner'. It's just something appropriately devilish. :P
So, what do we do with that particular assumption?
I guess we could bring some puppies and anyone that randomly kicks one gets to stay?
But yeah, grabbing everyone might be a tall order. So - focus on those we know and hope the rest can flee in the confusion? Workable.
If we had a reliable way to communicate with our inside man maybe we could get him to try and figure out which to bring and who to ditch ...
How's the small and fuzzy security? Maybe a small animal could sneak around with messages. Very risky though!
We do have some silver ravens. :P
Aldous has had similar thoughts to Lily - there's no guarantee that everyone in that cell is who they say they are. Cutting people loose and letting them fend for themselves may be the best option. If any insist on tagging along with us, they can be vetted once safety has been obtained.
We can still use the jailbreak as propaganda, even if some folks are killed or recaptured as they're cut loose.
But, I'd like to propose we try and eliminate every enemy in the jail, if possible. I think, depending on how well things go, we could take down 6 guards before they even know we're hitting them. From there, it may be possible to take the rest. If things go badly and we find ourselves fighting 10+ bad guys, I would agree that springing the cells and running is a good idea. However, I'd like to avoid that, because:
There may be really good intel in this prison. They've certainly got files on all the prisoners. We'd at least know who they are keeping. They've likely got files about the guards, Mr. Bester, and who knows what else. They could even have intel on other black sites, future plans, etc.
Even if the least they have is intel on those prisoners, destroying (or preferably stealing) that information could be enough to keep those prisoners, and their families, friends, associates, from a world of hurt. And that is a pretty noble goal, imo.
I like Miranda's idea of a small animal. Surely this forlorn prison in this forlorn part of town has an easy way for a diminutive creature to get in. If a small animal (Nissim's rat? Lily's Eyes of the Streets? Miranda's Silver Raven, if it would return from whence it came?) could get in, Aldous (if he's been allowed to keep his notes, or if he's brought a pen and paper), could potentially get his information out to you. Which isn't a whole lot more than you know, but it is a bit more.
@Small and fuzzy - We do have the silver ravens. Only problem is they are bright and shiny silver ravens.
If they spot a rat it is only a rat (and Miranda's alter ego might get rehired :P). If they spot a silver raven ...
Though now that I think on it we could probably paint the raven or something.
@Murder everyone - Thought has indeed occurred. Big question is really how dangerous they are.
If they are just a warrior level or two each it should be easy. If they are more like level 3+ fighters (or worse ...) our sneaky sneakattack might just annoy them slightly.
And it is really hard to tell without trying to boink them!
Problem is that once they are boinked it is really hard to undo that if they prove to be tough.
@Valuable intel - Hmm yeah. That's something we want in our grubby mits on.
Maybe if the guards were suitably distracted by some sort of prison break a small and invisible person might be able to stuff as much as she can in her satchel?
Another option if we can't KO all of them. And if we know where all the goodies are stored.
@Lily: The outer walls are made of stone(cobblestone). It seems to be a rather sturdy structure. Considering it was designed to hold lifestock of all sorts, it would probably make sense to make sure your walls would not surrender to, say, a large bear trying to get out.
@Keys: During food serving: Yes, one of the two local guards has the keys to the cells. Or rather "the" key. They were livestock holding pens, there was no use for different locks. If something was to be secured extra, it was easier to wrap a chain around the bars of the door and the static bars, then use a separate lock to fix the chain in place.
@Aldous: You will realize, given that you have time to reflect on it. Of course, things very much depend on how fast the others act...as in, how many hours it takes them to do something. It is likely it takes them plenty long enough, but keeping this open and in mind for now.
@Prisoners: Hey, at least they have civilian clothing rather than some orange jumpsuits...so there's that!
So a scroll of stoneshape probably isn't applicable. :(
Where would we get masks at this time of night? :o
Can Lily's 'sleeves' of many garments make a mask? FAQ says that they're a glamer effect (like weapon and armor) and thus can't be disbelieved, but only fool the senses. Does this mean that they fill the role of appearance-based clothing (such as a Noble outfit), but not the functional aspects (such as keeping you warm in the cold)?
@Masks: You don't need to go all V like Vendetta. But Accuser Devils do make for great security footage to be reviewed by a skilled painter, so I figured maybe a few people wanted to drape a scarf or piece of cloth over their face or something. The masks were just a suggestion :) In case someone had some laying around. Because, you know, that could also be a "thing".
@Glamer: on the SRD: - I was unaware of the ruling that glamer cannot be disbelieved.
I can't really make it work in my mind. If you glamered your longsword into a Sap...would you still use the "reach" of the longsword to hit your enemy? It also changes the "feel". If I reach out and touch it, do I touch open air? But have cuts appear out of nowhere when you stab your sap forward? What about a blind person having no idea what you are holding? Does he feel the sap and accidently stab himself without realizing so, on the sword you are holding out towards him?
Let me be more specific: I don't like that it's basically "unbeatable"(since one can't disbelieve even if presented with proof to the contrary) which makes the only counter being aware of the spell via detect magic, which I always houseruled e.g. not to hold sway over illusion checks without an opposed caster level check, with the illusion getting a bonus equal to the spell level.(Because Detect Magic is powerful enough without ruining a whole school of magic unless shenanigans).
Anyway, Rant off...- I would interpret it the same way, regarding appearance-based vs. functional.
Sleeves of Many Garments: Are the effects of sleeves of many garments illusion or transmutation?
The effects are illusion (glamer) like the glamered weapon and armor properties. This means they can’t be disbelieved like a figment could, but they do not actually physically change the clothes. The transformation changes only the appearance, including the feel, smell, and other sensory aspects.
The main thing is though that if you disbelieve a figment you get to see trough it ("it remains as a translucent outline") - like if you shove your hand trough a Silent Imaged wall you can see trough it.
A glamer doesn't disappear. If there was a glamer of a wall you could probably stick your hand trough it, but it would still block your vision. (Now seeing as I don't think there are actually any glamers that create things - only change or hide - you would probably be sticking your hand into something like a blue brick wall instead of the pink mud wall :P).
You can still realize something is an illusion - bleeding slashes from being sapped (or sudden appearances of blood jets signaling an Greater Invisible rogue). But you don't get anything more then the knowledge that something is f@#&y.
(Also - isn't that "yay I'm warm" when you are really freezing to death one of the few illusion effects we can emulate in real life : ) ?)
Edit:
Summary!
figment) - Realize is illusion = translucent. Gets a save when you interact/poke it.
glamer) - Realize is illusion = *uh did I prep True Seeing?!* Doesn't usually get a save though many spells have an end condition (Invisibility) or a "derp something's strange here" clause (Disguise Self)
Glamers can, Glamered weapons and armor cannot, and the FAQ specifically calls out that it works as the glamered property. :)
While reading up on it a designer said that if someone glamered their sword to look like a boquet, you'd get cut as if it were a sword, you would know that it was not a boquet, but you would still perceive it in all ways as a boquet, even with the knowledge that it was not one.
I agree with the 'I feel like I have clothing but am still freezing'. I'm also perfectly fine with magic just rendering it obvious taht she's using an illusion, as that means there will be a lot of false positives from rich folks wearing them to save time (adjust your cufflinks to freshen up your suit? Of course!)
Mark's post on it here, and FAQ here. There's a lot more to read in the thread itself, but it's mostly people just balking at each other for either liking or disliking the sleeves because they're 'too vague'. There's at least one more post from Mark in there as well, though. I happened upon all of this as a result of wondering what happens if say... Lily is asked to dance wearing nothing but her undies (hot weather outfit!) and cuff links (for whatever reason), but had used the cuff links to appear to be in an elegant nightgown. I was expecting it to work as a figment and thus have an outline and an emperor's new clothes effect and wasn't too happy with that.
Essentially, it doesn't matter whether it's a long sword that looks like a boquet or a boquet enchanted to cut out the heart of its foe: The end result is the same. (And your character may or may not speculate as the situation sees fit) :P
Oooh yes Miranda is really making those rogue levels sing - but maybe she should convert to ninja ^^?
@Miranda: I am more concerned over the fact that you would effectively be flatfooted against that scythe/dire flail that looks like a floppy fish.
Yeah, it's just a glamor. But you still don't see the hit coming.
Or, whole different example: how about weight? It "feels" lighter now. So you can easily lift the cloud giants war-club glamered to look like a toothpick. No wait, the glamer was dismissed, you're encumbered with 20k lbs now -_-
@real life: thats the problem I meant. If the glamer worked that way, you wouldn't even start feeling cold and could determine something was wrong, as the "real" illusion would override it.
That means if you are using those you would happily freeze to death, because you think the heavy fur coat is working. It feels like it does. And you don't even get cold or feel pain...when the sensation would grow strong enough to pierce the glamer, you're already in the real-life death zone.
Edit: Also note that I am well aware of the "weight" condition and the "suppression" on e.g. the weapon "glamered" ability. But those are "fixes" for something inherently broken with the subschool. It should not need these exceptions pointed out.
I mean, Hallucinatory Terrain and Mirage Arcana did not get Will disbeliefs despite being glamers for nothing. "The floor is lava" would be a lot more popular without that save...as would be "I lock you in a tiny box with a pyramid around for concentration+x hours. Oh you run out of air? Pity.
For the scythe: Why wouldn't you be flat-footed against the scythe that looks like a floppy fish? You absolutely should! But once the guy hits you with the floppy fish (or one of your friends), he's a threat, and that floppy fish is now a weapon as far as you're concerned!
Likewise, I don't think you could glamer something to not weigh x amount. It will weigh x amount, thus making you incredibly confused. It looks like a tooth pick, and feels like a toothpick, but it really, really doesn't want to move for some reason. It must be glued to the table.
I think that the glamer would make you feel as if you were wearing clothing, but would in no way keep you warm - I.E. Function v. Effect. The cold does not care that you are using an illusion. It is immune to such things, as such either you would stay warm (because happy thoughts) or you would be cold. Think of it this way: Just because I'm wearing a coat does not mean I can't get cold. In fact, if I'm freezing already, putting a coat on doesn't magically make me feel warm. :) I just feel the coat, whether the coat is all in my head or a real coat.
You could also make your long spear invisible and hope the enemy simply impales themselves on it. But in pathfinder combat people are suddenly hyper-perceptive and notices the ripples in the air and can avoid it just as easily as a visible spear (of course, they lose this super power if it is an actual creature that is invisible. Yey logic ^^).
Because the spells simply doesn't give that bonus. Or everyone is naturally suspicious of floppy fishes.
Unless, of course, it is a very specific weapon :P
A something can also look very light and feel very light and still be glued to the floor though. But I suspect if you tried to pick up something that looks like a pillow only to find that it won't budge you might get one of those "ahh something is f++%y" rolls.
(Another good question is what happens if something is glamered to be slightly larger and you attempt to grab the non-existing part!)
@Freeze assassination - If you manage to trick someone into it and then out in the cold, isn't that pay-off quite worth it?
But while they might feel warm they might start to notice their hands turning white/black.
They might also realize that being somewhere cold sucks even with furs since they are only a +2 bonus on fort saves anyhow (cold weather clothes are +4 - so how warm are they really ...).
And that it is really freaking hard to freeze to death in pathfinder even if they are actively trying. The freeze stuff is really wonky even before illusions : )
@Hallucinatory Terrain - It has a saving throw built in : )
(Also you can totally conceal something under it I think - unless it is a creature because magic)
Anyhow!
My 2 cents.
Illusion rules following the book as written = Okay, good nice and all that.
Illusion rules applying logic = Reality starts falling apart. Just like many other parts of the game (commoner railgun anyone?)
@Scythe: Oh, dangerous fish. But it's just flopping around in his hands. Where do you block? Oh too late, he hit you again. I am talking about in-combat application, not first strike potential. Having "invisible weapons" makes it very hard to defend against them.
@Weight: If I could not change that, why do weapon and armor need to point out the exception? Thats the other thing, if it does not change weight, I can still not "disbelieve"...you have that huge two-handed warhammer and turn it into a large balloon of air floating behind you. The guard takes it from you and realizes it weighs a ton. But hey, it still feels like a balloon, looks like a balloon,...he can't even ascertain that it might be something else...until such time as he tries to hit you with the balloon which miraculously suppresses the effect of weapon glamor as written.
So now the guy 100 feet over ALSO sees its a warhammer, but the guy who took it from you and is looking at it closer can't find out before?
@cold: hence why I said it would be my interpretation as well. Raw, it is debatable, because you don't get to save or disbelieve against the glamer either...so you may well consider it to be a fine fur coat that will keep you warm. - until you freeze. Which is not good handling imho.
@Miranda: Invisibility: Yeah...plus what if the light is turned out and it gets supernaturally dark? Same thing as invisible. You can read a bit into the movement of your enemy, but it's still problematic to consider invisible weapons with normal lighting conditions and visible combatants
@grabbing non-existing part: yep, you'd feel you lift it up. Then place it 10 feet to the right. And leave. Now person B comes. Does it see it at the original position or to the right? Person B picks it up and moves it 10 feet to the left using the non-existing part. Original caster comes back. Does he see it twice? In the original position? Either of the two moved ones?
Or, new problem: a small spiky ball you cover with injury poison. You glamer it to look like an apple and throw it to a guard. Does he catch an apple? A spiky ball? Does it hurt him? Does poison get applied? Does he realize either of the two, knowing he is holding an apple? Will he try eating the apple, happily crunching down on a spiky ball...and will he succeed?
@Hallucinatory: I said so in my post. they didn't get the saving throws "for nothing". Because they are glamers, so you could not "disbelief" them by the previous ruling, no matter what, and no matter how outrageous the change would be.
@Illusion rules: That's why I'm saying I'm running things in a way that allows me to not get a painful headache even thinking about it. If there is a problem or I consider something utterly stupid, I will adapt.
It devoured my post, so I'll try to summarize:
1: Turnabout is fairplay. If we mess with something you don't like, (i.e. robe of needles glamered to look like a dancing dress) we've opened that can, not you. Honestly, I think that's a stretch of what the item should be used for. But... it's something the item could conceivably do. I'd argue that the item in question couldn't glamer the needles, only the outfit, but that's going to complicate things like 'well, what about spiky jewelry'.
2: This comes down to the real object and the proxy object. You can't interact with the proxy object in any way that would subvert the real object's existence. If you grab the proxy object by a portion that doesn't exist in relation to the real object, or glamer it to look like it weighs less or weighs more, you still get the interactions only as it would affect the real object. Maybe you try to lift the false object but it remains stationary, refusing to budge for some reason. You adjust your grip and it moves with no resistance! You grab a hot poker. You don't see that it in particular is hot, but you react the way you would to grabbing a hot object. You grab something spiky, and respond to the bleeding and stabbing, even though it feels like it's just an apple when you hold it. Because something stabbed you. That can't be denied. You are cold. That can't be denied. It just... makes sense intuitively to me. You can't take off gloves you aren't wearing, so if Lily wants to take off her glamered gloves, then it stands to reason that the real gloves would have to come off. But at the same time, I'd actually argue that no longer wearing the outfit would immediately drop the illusion. So, if she took off her gloves and laid them on the chair, they'd vanish if they weren't real or return to the normal gloves if they were... so on and so forth.
So... how do the sleeves work for you? All I want them for is a grab bag of clothing. Lily's a primadonna and it's a 200gp fix to have a 'deep wardrobe' and 'clean clothes'. If that's -all- she gets out of it, cool. That's what I wanted it for. But I also want to know what I'm getting into if I wanted to use it to dress like a Dottari. Or a Noble. Or go out in the Cold with a fur coat made of pure imagination. :)
To me, I view it as 'it functions as what you are wearing, with the appearances of what it projects'. So if I wear a summer outfit that looks like a fur coat, people will wonder why I'm so cold. If I wear a fur coat to a ball, people will wonder why I'm sweating so much, but won't judge me ill for my very nice little-black-dress.
The idea on my end is to have an outfit that she doesn't feel utterly disgusted to wear all the time that she has to wash -thoroughly- every night, probably. Because the outfit does get dirty. Just it and she can't tell until she takes it (or the cufflinks) off. And by that time, maybe Miranda's been a friend and cleaned her up magically before it's an issue. :)
1.: Aye, I'm just ranting here. That means I'll definitely not "forbid" things from raw just because. It does, however, mean that in the interest of immersion or, more generally, things making sense on a rough scale, I reserve the right to alter things to fix problems that pop up. But that's not exactly a privilege for GM's, that's a job description :)
2.: Lots of things there, with the "false object", to stay with one example: You grip it wrongly, and it does not move, because you are not actually gripping the physical object. Could you step on the non-existant part to reach the ceiling? What about a blind creature that uses different senses...what if it's a metal weapon made to look like wood - will a rust monster decay it? Will Burning Disarm work? What about Repel Metal or Stone.
Could you simply glamor a holy symbol into a mundane item...would it work? Would it work the other way round? Illusion always had much room for interpretation. But the fact something is defined as "you can't disbelieve it even if there's proof it's fake" goes against my instincts.
That said, what you get: I agree with your original estimate...they fill the role of appearance-based clothing (such as a Noble outfit), but not the functional aspects (such as keeping you warm in the cold)?
You go out in the cold, you are cold. You dress like a Dottari? Thats fine, but if you are distracted, a canny observer MAY notice something off about your movement unless you really wear armor of similar weight and range of motion. You pretend to be a noble? It's all great and good. Your jewellery may seem crude to a professional jeweler, but then, you wouldn't let him come close and take such a detailed look in the first place.
Generally, do whatever you try to do with it, you can stretch limits as well, but as with a disguise check, or a bluff check, or a careful done forgery, if you try to push too far, it may just fail(even if by default it cannot fail). That said, I would also grant you lot checks if someone tried to pull such shenanigans on you, so thats only fair.
Yeah. That and dressing like a dottari would likely require a disguise check with no material cost for the clothes. I can't just go 'like is a dottari uniform now.'. I have to know what that should look like, the nuances and the like. I dress in red and black, but I missed the thorned embroidery because I never got close to a dottari to know better. It doesn't become what the thing. It becomes the what I imagine. So are best, it saves some time on counterfeiting an outfit.
Likewise, standing on is the same. The idea is that it feels stable and solid, then you try to lift your weight with it and you fall through. Maybe you rationalize it, maybe you just go 'like thing is mucky here'. To me, it's like any form of mind altering substance. You know you're petting a kitty. But the kitty is burning you. That doesn't make a hot iron any less a kitty or make the burning any less real.
For the holy symbol, I think the appearance is everything. If your symbol is a floppy fish, glamering your sword to look like a floppy fish makes it a holy symbol. Making a floppy fish look like a sword makes it no longer function, because to me, what it is is less important than what it appears to be. But... That is sort of an edge case. What do you think on that one?
First, I agree that it's an edge case...secondly, Holy Symbols are used to channel divine power. So I would say it depends on the gods interpretation of the act.
If you sneak in, steal a holy symbol and glamor the bed pan into looking like a holy symbol, and then the cleric attempts to invoke it, he does so in good spirit that he is using a genuine holy symbol. It is not, but most gods may let that pass and still grant what is asked of them.
Same as a God of Trickery may be impressed by your ingenuity for hiding what is really his holy symbol in the mundane, so that you may better keep secrets and do his bidding, and allow you to invoke him with an everyday object that really is a glamored symbol.
A case-by-case basis, so to say :)
The flipside of that coin is incurring divine piss-off for mucking with some deity's sign though. It doesn't come up often, but I have that seen as a story element on occasion, and even dimly recall optional rules from one edition or another for people who wanted to include that specific detail in their games.
Man, autocorrect butchered that. I'm glad it made enough sense to respond to.
@Lily, no worries, it made sense :)
@Boros, aye, but I'm VERY careful with that...because that kind of thing can quickly turn into Fiat. Anything dealing with "Divine Wrath" is in risk of that. But you are right. E.g. you mucked with the holy symbol, and the cleric is trying to do something with the glamored bedpan? Could be the Deity not only grants him the ability to use it as symbol, but throws in a free empowerment on top. *shrug* such minor aspects could happen. If the Deity cares. They mostly kind of not deal in first level believer support, so counting on the religion CEO/Founder to come and do something is probably not a good plan...but if he or she does - well.(That said, as mentioned before, anything that does happen will be very tame because the "Fiat Railroad to Deus-Ex-Machina-Town" is not fun for anybody.
@bleh, my edit got eaten by timeout :P and i did not copypaste.
So, in short:
@Sewers: you are in middle of Y's on map, only few directions to go. If everybody vanishes into the sewers, nearby exits could be guarded and they might "flush" the system. If most are running around above ground as diversion, however, you could probably exit that way. Also, nobody scouted out the sewer network so it's a gamble regardless.
@Weapons: Nobody organized any, and Rexus has no time. But there's probably an armory in the building to store ammo, weapons of off-duty personnel, and reserve weapons. If you raid that, you could probably outfit most of the prisoners...or aquire a weapon stock for the rebellion to use if you can transport them.
@Out - I'm worried about what they can do to prevent us from using the exits if we don't take them quickly.
Arcane Lock, Glue Seal or similar means getting trough the door takes forever. A chain and a padlock is a mundane counter-measure that is also effective at screwing us over. Or simply a pair of guards standing in the way and taking a bit too long to down.
They don't need to totally block us from leaving only delay us enough - and every minute they get to screw with the exits after the alarm is raised is probably at least another minute we need to unscrew them.
If they have some "oh no prison break" countermeasures planned and I'm going to assume the inquisition is at least somewhat competent.
That's why I'd like to see us securing a way out asap : )
@Weapons - Miranda has like half a dozen daggers and she probably only *need* two of them. So that's four weapons we could hand out at least!
Am I reading this right? Our rogue-mage is complaining about locks being a problem? Ew.
The time it takes to pick them - especially when the dottari is breathing down your neck :P
I'm very sorry for the long delay in posting everyone.
Some things have changed, mostly me moving to a new job, and I just don't have the time I used to for PbP. It's nothing that will be changing in the foreseeable future either, so I'm going to have to cut back on the number of campaigns I'm playing in. Right now I'm a player in 10 campaigns and it's not sustainable. I figure I need to drop four, and possibly five, campaigns given my new time constraints.
I'm going to be dropping this one, partially because it's a duplicate (I'm playing Hell's Rebels twice right now), and partially because I believe it will not be nearly so disruptive for me to leave this campaign compared to some of the others. You guys are well set up, and could probably not even bother with recruiting a new player to continue on just fine.
I'm sorry I have to bail out, it's been fun and I've enjoyed playing with you all. Good luck!
I am sorry to hear that.
It is, obviously, my fault as well.
It's been a while again since we moved forward, and I know it's harder to get into and care about a character if there's such long breaks. I repeatedly stated I would do better, and while I like to think I managed ok for a while, work is currently fierce(multi-million euro project has planned go-live in week 36, and I am responsible for a huge work package that will decide if that date needs to get pushed back - needless to say it would not be very good for my record if I mess up - currently working late every day, then extra on weekends)...that, and there's no optimal solution for the raid so no matter what I push for as Rexus will be...not satisfactory.
But then, you stated from the start that you'd never quite "felt" Nissim, so...yeah.
I'll try and get an update done tomorrow, and I'll write you out the same way as Juliette. With the guards showing up at your home(even though they had a different reason) you realized that all of this is not worth it if there's a chance all those you care about will be gone by the time the dust settles.
If you ever mean to come back, drop me a note. Good luck with those games you keep.