I'm all for keeping the bookkeeping down to a minimum :)
I do like that idea. It makes it easier for us to gain WBL gold without having mini-adventures every time we want to cash in another 6 to 10 masterwork/+1 sawtooth sabres and half as many suits of red mantis armor without immediately alerting all the Red Mantises about us.
I do like the loot idea. Talia really only wants to save up for one item, so a road towards getting that would be pretty cool.
I did have a relevant question though. Initially, Talia was going to pick up one or two crafting feats, because I predicted some items would raise a red flag if we purchased them or might just be flat our unavailable. Its also cheaper. Now though, I'm a little concerned that crafting could slow things down gamewise and I'm unsure if its possible negatives outweigh its benefits.
What is everyone's opinion on this? I'm still a couple of levels away from going near anything crafting related so I can make adjustments as required. I think Talivar and myself both want Metamagic Rods at some point though that can get a little pricey and hard to find.
I'm not sure how Talivar and Uruelleth handle crafting in their campaigns, but my initial thought is that you wouldn't be able to craft, or that crafting would be much more restricted. I'm also thinking about maybe having a maximum item cost that you can purchase, say half of your WBL or something like that.
If we went with this system, you wouldn't have to worry about raising red flags with the items you get, unless you are trying to steal an item or something like that. As for availability, that's not something you would have to worry about either, unless you're talking about a unique item or artifact or something along those lines.
If we go with this method, I'm assuming you would still have all your starting gear plus gear adding up to your WBL. You can use the gear you've obtained so far (up to your WBL) or we can just say you sold it for whatever else you're wanting. Small things like meals or inn stays, I would just hand wave and say you have the pocket change for.
Crafting has never come up so far in my games. While very thematic, the wbl implications can be troublesome. Also with the kind of virtual loot thing you're suggesting it's not needed quite so much. Then of course many campaigns don't have enough downtime even using ring of sustenance / valet familiar tricks.
Still Talia is right that we'd be after metamagic rods at some point.
The more I think about it, the more I probably would just disallow all crafting if we went with this system. As for the WBL implications, if I had to guess (and it's a complete guess), I think WBL assumes no crafting, since not everyone takes crafting feats.
Metamagic rods would be fine. Even if it's not the most realistic of things, if you have the WBL for one, I say go for it. That said, like I mentioned earlier, I probably would restrict individual item purchases to no more than half your WBL, to keep things from getting too ridiculous.
Assuming Kilarra and Vorya don't have any objections, I think we'll go ahead and go with this system, since at least three of you seem to be in favor of it. If we need to adjust some of the particulars, we can, but hopefully it'll be fairly simple to implement in practice.
It's also easier to implement if you do so at the start of a new level... how convenient, then, that you just reached level 7! Woohoo! Congratulations!
P.S. As I mentioned, stick with your starting loot, but feel free to make any adjustments you want to in post-starting gear. Keep individual item purchases to half or less of your WBL. As always, if you have a question, don't hesitate to ask.
P.P.S. WBL for level 7 is 23,500 gp. : )
I'll do the items in a bit but for leveling up:
+1 level in Sorcerer
FCB: +1 2nd level spell known
Regular feat: Intensified spell
Sorcerer Marid Bloodline Feat: Empower Spell
Sorcerer Marid Bloodline Spell: Gaseous form
Spells Known from leveling: +1 lvl 1, +1(+2 thanks to FCB) lvl 2, +1 lvl 3
Spell slots per day: +1 lvl 2, +1 lvl 3
Lets talk about spells, basically Talivar should learn things we want to use all the time and Talia can pick up specialist situational things. I'm thinking we probably want to take camp security more seriously so these two spells seem useful:
1st level spell: Alarm
2nd level spell: Rope Trick
3rd level spell: Fireball, naturally
This leaves an open 2nd level spell, I was wondering about Levitate, or Mirror Image, or something else possibly a no reflex save blast (improved evasion is a thing). Any thoughts?
+1 Level Bloodrager
Feat: Vital Strike
Second Level spells!!
2 – mirror image and false life
Skills: 4-1 + 2 background +1 FCB
+1 Sense Motive
+1 Knowledge (geography)
+1 Linguistics (Giant)
+1 Level Shaman
+1 HP (FCB)
Feat: Additional Traits: (Metamagic Lineage (Disintegrate), Holy Schemer)
+1 1st level spell prepared
+1 4th level spell prepared
Skills: 6 + 2 background
+1 Knowledge Nature
+1 Knowledge Planes
+1 Knowledge Religion
+1 Knowledge Nobility
+1 Knowledge History
+1 HP Favored Class Bonus
+1 3rd level spell
Inquisitor Spells Known (CL 7th;)
3rd/ 1X day Invisibility Purge, Burst of Speed
2nd/ 3x day Blistering Invective, Surmount Affliction, Communal Protection from Evil, Zone of Truth
1st/ 4x day Disguise Self, True Strike, Vocal Alteration, Magic Weapon, Weapons Against Evil
0 / At will—Sift, Create Water, Light, Read Magic, Detect Poison, Bleed
Knowledge (arcana) +1
Knowledge (religion) +1
Sense Motive +1
Thank you, Vorya. I'm trying to challenge y'all a bit. As you progress in levels, I feel like I can be a bit more brutal since you have more ways to respond. We'll see how things go. Hopefully there will be some memorable encounters.
When you have time, if you haven't already, don't forget to update your character profiles and quick stats lines.
If you don't mind posting your updated loot here, that would be appreciated. Make sure the loot list is updated as needed as well. That should hopefully make it easier to track how much wealth you have to work with.
I'm monitoring the gameplay thread, but it appears you're still discussing your next steps, so there isn't need for me to post at the moment.
For items, I got a belt of incredible dexterity +2 and a headband of mental prowess +2 (INT & Wisdom) (Sense Motive).
I have also learnt Infernal.
Technically leaves me around 4,000gp under WBL but thats ok.
GM, how are you going to look at spell components with the new loot rules. There's a few spells that have 100gp, 200gp, or 250gp worth of components that I could probably afford now with the gold value I might have.
Talivar, you can select those spells if you wish, just be aware that I already have access to more reliable shelter spells that I'd only need to cast once a day as opposed to several times a day. Spells like Sylvan Getaway, Secure Shelter, or Shadowy Haven are all good shelter spells.
If you wanted a good level 2 spell Talivar, Invisibility would be my pick, since you could probably cast it more times than I can. - and I wouldn't be using it often.
We'll have to see how Kilarra stands when she gets back, but I was over the WBL by a decent amount, thanks to a +2 ring of protection and some boots of striding and springing that I forgot I had claimed. By leveling up, I'm only about a thousand or so over,, based on my "disguise" of more traditional Elven weapons and armor. So I get nothing new this level, and I'm not sure what happens if we decide to scavenge something of value from an enemy.
Zek, is this system supposed to allow us to continue to loot, but when we level up we can switch things out/sell off/upgrade items? Or are we not looting anymore?
Talia, that is a good question. Talivar and Uruelleth, how do y’all handle this in your campaigns?
Uruelleth, as for continuing to loot, my current thought is to still occasionally give out loot, but to not worry about most of the things any given enemy carries. I would also try to make sure any loot I do give out wouldn’t exceed WBL for level 8. When you level up is ideally when you would switch things out. Being able to change things all the time would probably be too powerful, since you could always try to tailor your gear to any given situation.
To be clear, I’m open to adjustments to the system, particularly since this is my first time using it.
As for your current loot, you can still switch things up if you want to, or you’re welcome to keep what you have, since I already gave it out.
Mmm OK so Talia has a point. Revised spell list
1: Windy Escape
2: Invisibility & Mirror Image
Regards loot, my two games are different. The Strange Aeons one has "virtual wbl" mostly because I know that group of players doesn't care for all the bookkeeping. I still give some of the regular loot from the AP but as written it expects 4 players not 6. Virtual WBL makes sure nobody falls behind.
The Ruins of Adventure is a bit of a loot pinata to recreate the feel of certain old school adventures. Some of the players seem to get a kick out of it and we're not doing the virtual wbl thing there. I suspect they are over WBL but that's fine, the minions of hell grew stronger.
I'm guessing for this game you might want to occasionally give some nifty items, but overall handwave regular loot. I'd also recommend limiting max item price to 1/3 WBL unless it's something special you want us to have.
I went for a bunch of smaller items for Talivar, probably no surprises here. Herolab puts his new wealth at 20787g.
Upgraded cloak of resistance to +2: 3000g
Amulet of natural armor +1: 2000g
Ring of protection +1: 2000g
Lesser selective metamagic rod: 3000g
Ah, ⅓ WBL is probably wise, for balancing, if nothing else. I think I’ll still say ½ for level 7 for the sake of those who have already selected loot, but we’ll do ⅓ WBL for future levels.
Talivar, how do you handle spells with expensive spell components? I think that needs to be taken into account, but I’m not sure what the best method would be.
When it gets to stuff like diamond dust, I'm going to insist it's bought ahead of time. Likewise with anything over 100g, until 100g is nothing. For less expensive stuff I really don't care.
Alright, that makes sense. I suppose that should be part of people’s purchases for their WBL for any given level. And yeah, anything under 100gp I won’t worry about.
So to clarify, if you’re wanting to cast spells with spell components that cost 100 gp or more, you’ll need to take those purchases into account when deciding on your purchases for your current level.
I probably will incorporate some regular loot. When I do, that loot may cause you to go over your WBL, but you won’t need to sell or get rid of anything as a result. There may just need to be some adjustments when you level up again.
That seems like the best way to go about it. Front-line combat types generally find most items looted off bodies useful for the first 8-10 levels, but arcane and divine casters often fall behind since it makes sense for the armor and weapons to go to the ones using them. So Talivar and Talia (and to a lesser extent Vorya) will really benefit from this system since they shouldn't fall behind Kilarra and me.
Yeah Talia really just needs to boost her mental stats and she is golden.
GM, there is a consumable item called Incense of Meditation that would let Talia maximise all her spells for the day. I think this could be really powerful though, because at later levels you can add metamagic to it. Too strong at this current level?
Talia, my concern with high cost items like that is that you won’t feel like you got your money’s worth from them. I do plan to have a few dungeon crawls eventually, but it may be awhile before one comes up. As such, you might only have a few encounters on any given day, thus - in all likelihood - making an item like that overkill.
That said, I am going to try to make encounters more challenging and dangerous, so it could be useful. If you’re really interested in consumable items, my suggestion would be to keep a portion of your WBL in reserve then you can allot that to the Incense of Meditation or some other item if you decide you want to use it for a particular day. Using an item like that would take up that amount of your WBL, though, so keep that in mind as you wouldn’t get that part of your WBL back till you level up again.
Thats ok, sounds like a good idea. Probably would be something I'd only end up using for heavy duty fights anyway so if you are ok about me keeping portion of WBL in reserve and then allotting it when required, I'm happy.
Hi, guys! I'm back and ready to get rolling!
...And have a lot to do. Wow. Okay! My level up definitely won't be done by today. I've got a lot of catching up to do. I expect my level to be done tomorrow, and the gear... I have a lot of math to do. Haha. Hopefully the day after at the latest? Not sure on that one. Depends how crazy all the kids I watch are this week. Haha. Math and spending coin takes focus I don't easily find time for. I will try to get it done in a timely fashion.
As for opinions on WBL gear like we're planning. I've only ever used it once before for a campaign and I found it irritating, actually. But, no matter. Everyone's on board so so am I. I've no other useful input to give in regards to material components. What you're suggesting sounds fine with me.
Hopping over to the gameplay thread now. Plenty to read!
EDIT: Well, I kept a better handle on my gear than I thought I did. I should be able to get it all done tomorrow.
No worries, Kilarra. We have covered quite a bit since you’ve been gone. Just level when you can. And as for loot, hopefully the initial adjustment of things will be the most annoying and it will be relatively easy afterwards. Definitely still open to adjustments if anything seems warranted. Hopefully it’ll be less annoying than your other group’s implementation. : )
I'll get more knowledge skills as I upgrade my headband. Arcana and Local are on my pick up list. Also, now that I have a little bit of WBL, I can purchase components for Visualization of the Mind / use Blood Money to give us access to any spell we need.
Hey, I've got a 9 Intelligence. I can't know all the skills!
Just suggesting you not rely on a single person for most skills. Also, 9 Intelligence sounds like a personal problem. : P
By the way, happy anniversary! Not counting the recruitment period, today marks 1 year since we started this adventure together. Here's to the years to come!
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Yay! Happy Mantis Day!
Happy *dead* Mantis Day
Before I forget again, I did want to mention - as an addendum to our discussion about WBL and reserving some of that for consumables - that consumables items you decide to purchase should be specified at the beginning of any given adventuring day. Hopefully that gives you some flexibility on items based on what you expect to do for a particular day without letting you decide to pick up an item right before a fight or even in the middle of one.
I realize some of this probably goes without saying, but I would rather specify it ahead of time so I can hopefully avoid blindsiding anyone.
Talivar picked up invisibility Talia, so unless they're using active abilities I think you're able to get close enough.
+1d10+1 hp (+7 hp)
Skills: +1 rank in: Acrobatics, Climb, Disable Device, Intimidate, Knowledge (geography)*, Knowledge (local), Perception, Sleight of Hand*, Stealth, Survival
Feat: Double Slice
+1 BAB (+7/+2)
Stalker (studied target also applies to Disguise, Intimidate, and Stealth)
As for gear, she has 5,005 gp to spend. She'll use 3,000 to increase her mithral shirt from +1 to +2, she'll buy ten potions of shield for 500 gp, two potion of invisibility for 600 gp, five smokesticks for 100 gp, and... I'll save the last 805 gp as cash.
I note from my GMing it's easy to forget something, particularly at high level. For what it's worth I think you're doing a great job and I'm enjoying this game a lot.
Yeah, there's so much minutia that it's not surprising that one or two things slip by. I also agree that Zek's doing a great job.
That being said...
I'm reasonably sure that Pathfinder eliminated the diagonal blindspot that existed in the old 3.5. I remember using that to great effect back in the old 3.5 days -- come in at an angle since the 10' reach guys couldn't threaten that corner square. I'm pretty sure Pathfinder eliminated that loophole, so I think that you can flank someone using a diagonal 10' reach.
Not sure if the +2 would have mattered in any case, but I'm just throwing that out there.
Isn't the rule in Pathfinder if you draw a straight line between the two allies and it passes through the foe, it is a flank?
I do often get it wrong, so I'm probably incorrect. I am just trying to remember all my abilities, when I leveled I saw bunches of stuff I forgot I had.
GM, you are doing a great job! Love this game.
Thanks, guys! I really appreciate the encouragement and I’m glad I have y’all to double-check my work! I realize this is also our first combat since y’all reached level 7, so I’m still getting used to all your fancy new abilities.
As for diagonals... this is a quote from the legacy pfsrd: “When measuring distance, the first diagonal counts as 1 square, the second counts as 2 squares, the third counts as 1, the fourth as 2, and so on.”
As I read the above, two diagonals in a row would count as 15 ft. Flanking only applies if you’re opposite an ally and threatening the same foe, so I think it still wouldn’t count as flanking. Let me know if you see something different as it would have actually made a difference for confirming Vorya’s critical hit since the enemies were flat-footed at the time.
Edit: Though *sigh* as I continue thinking about it, Vorya would have actually acted before Uruelleth due to initiative, so flanking wouldn’t have applied regardless, but it’s still relevant for future reference.
Well, I can't find anything, but I note that the diagonal rule is for distance.
Here's the problem with the rule that you can't flank/reach/attack the corner (like Vorya and me as we currently are on the map). Vorya, with a reach weapon, can't strike me right now because I'm somehow 15 feet away, or 3 squares. I step diagonally 5' toward him, and he still can't hit me, since now I'm adjacent to him. So, in a single 5' step, I've cleared 10 feet and have avoided a potential AoO just because we're living on a grid.
Granted, if that's your rule, that's potentially useful, and I will definitely plan to make good use of it whenever we face something with reach.
I’m certainly open to adjusting things, if necessary, but that appears to be the most straightforward interpretation of the rule that I can see. I do see your argument for doing it another way, but if the second diagonal is going to be 10 ft for movement purposes, it seems most consistent to also enforce that for attack purposes.
When getting to large and greater than large sized opponents, reach will probably be even more wonky, so I think it may be best to keep things as written. But yes, it can also provide advantages, as you said. I think you might could also consider it a drawback of reach weapons to better balance them with non-reach weapons.
As I’ve mentioned before, I’m open to adjusting things. For instance, if you find something indicating the diagonals work different for combat, please let me know.
So, I don't have an opinion either way, but there was a thread about this on the forms. Note, unable to see dev input so take it with a grain of salt
Seems that in a given scenario
A1 A2 A3 A4 A5
B1 Ft Or B4 B5
C1 C2 C3 C4 C5
A second fighter (with reach) threatens from A5, B5 and C5
Theres also a template card kinda thing
Also don't know if this is relevent but seems interesting from FAQs
Apologies if I have completely missed the point of the issue though, and if so ignore me, I'm not a rules guru :/