Dotting. I've been wanting to try Spheres out for a while now, so I'll be back with a rough concept later.
I appreciate the shoutout, hopefully everything works out for the best.
I'd like some more input from fellow sphere users. What do you think of this as a boon:
Requires (Focus Casting). If your focus has an enhancement bonus, you may add that bonus to attack and damage rolls for your sphere effects.
Yes? No? Broken?
This is how foci work in 5th edition, hmm.
I appreciate the shoutout, hopefully everything works out for the best.
I'd like some more input from fellow sphere users. What do you think of this as a boon:
Requires (Focus Casting). If your focus has an enhancement bonus, you may add that bonus to attack and damage rolls for your sphere effects.
Yes? No? Broken?
well other boons come out to
or
while not broken per say, it's not what boons do and is imbalancing in that regard. I don't think Red Rogue would allow it regardless.
something more appropriate maybe would be the ability to expend enhancement bonus to gain an equal amount of of caster level for a single sphere cast. Regaining the enhancement bonus when you rest to regain spell points. that's more of the level and scope a boon is designed for I think. *Disclaimer Red Rogue still may not allow this.
That's alright, I'll just take Empowered Abilities.
Question; Does anyone have any healing abilities?
None whatsoever.
I've got a ritual scroll of infernal healing and really fast natural healing. I don't think any sheets for a support caster have been shown yet, though a cheap healing wand is only like 1,000 gp and we'd be fine with that.
It's not super hard to pick up healing spheres; if nobody in the party starts with that, someone could easily add it on by level 4.
(Wands of healing, yeah, start at 1k, and a wand or staff of hearing would be pretty easy to pick up and use)
Awesome, as long as we have a plan. I have GM approved tattoos that do +1d6 elemental damage but have -1 AC. As a monk without armor my AC is going to be pretty low anyways. The tattoos can be upgraded up to 3 times, every time doing +1d6 and -1 AC.
So yeah, eventually I'll be doing really sick elemental damage with my punches. But I'll be taking a lot of damage as we don't have a tank. Having healing in the group will be a big plus.
Well, I'll eventually have a nice amount of battlefield control once I pick up Lure Light.
Monks robes and Qiggong help. I can also look at expanding into protection eventually.
spheres-knowing people:
for Symbiat, they have 0 (+2) for spheres/talents at first level, and in the text it says "A symbiat gains the Mind and Telekinesis spheres as bonus magic talents."
My question is, are those two the (+2), or is the 0 there to make up for the fact that they get two bonus aside from the two that all casters get?
That is an interpretation that brings up interesting questions.
For instance, since the class ability for all the SoP classes is called "Casting", you are saying it only applies once.
However, a Cleric and an Oracle both have a class ability called "Orisons". Would you also rule that a gestalt character only gets that once? And the same for a Magus/Wizard or Sorceror/Witch, since they all get "Cantrips"?
Also semi-related is an AMA from the creator referencing gestalt. He says gestalts would get all the talents, but does not specifically include/exclude the (+2) part of "Casting".
It's not super hard to pick up healing spheres; if nobody in the party starts with that, someone could easily add it on by level 4.
(Wands of healing, yeah, start at 1k, and a wand or staff of hearing would be pretty easy to pick up and use)
I have monastic tradition, so I couldn't become the healer, at least without redoing a lot of my spheres, monastic means I can only heal myself. ;-;
Right, I was saying the two bonus talents fall under the "Casting" Class Feature, part and parcel with the rest of it. As such, I found it odd that you wouldn't allow a gestalt to get all the talents that would come with the classes.
My reference to the Cantrips and Orisons was regarding a normal, non-sphere gestalt caster. I am equating your saying that a gestalt spherecaster would not get the +2 from each class to saying that a non-spherecaster Sorceror/Magus would not get the "Cantrips" Class Feature from both of the classes by virtue of the class abilities sharing the same name.
The mention of them not getting the +2 talents after the first gain of the class feature is to prevent someone from taking 5 different classes their first 5 character levels and having a ton of talents.
I'm going to agree with Tenro.
If a player or GM wishes a player to follow two traditions (similar to creating a wizard/cleric in traditional Pathfinder), they may do so. When gaining a level in a casting class beyond their 1st, the caster may apply that casting level to a new tradition. They gain an entirely separate set of spheres, talents, caster level, spell points, drawbacks, and boons, which are determined similarly to but completely separate from the first set. When creating a magical effect, they must choose which of these traditions (and its associated spheres, talents, spell points, etc.) they will use; they cannot use aspects of one tradition to empower the other.
Emphasis mine. This, combined with the AMA, leads me to believe that one would have separate sets of talents/spell pools (including the +2) for every class they took a level in. Just like dipping casters in normal Pathfinder.
That is an interpretation that brings up interesting questions.
For instance, since the class ability for all the SoP classes is called "Casting", you are saying it only applies once.
However, a Cleric and an Oracle both have a class ability called "Orisons". Would you also rule that a gestalt character only gets that once? And the same for a Magus/Wizard or Sorceror/Witch, since they all get "Cantrips"?
Also semi-related is an AMA from the creator referencing gestalt. He says gestalts would get all the talents, but does not specifically include/exclude the (+2) part of "Casting".
technically it isn't about the casting class ability, the gaining of 2 free talents is listed under the rules in Basic magic -> magic talents.
The number of magic talents a caster gains differs between
classes, but all characters gain two bonus magic talents the first
time they gain a level in a casting class, regardless of which class
is chosen.
As you can see Casting class abilities only define what casting type they are and their ability modifier.
I'm going to agree with Tenro.
If a player or GM wishes a player to follow two traditions (similar to creating a wizard/cleric in traditional Pathfinder), they may do so. When gaining a level in a casting class beyond their 1st, the caster may apply that casting level to a new tradition. They gain an entirely separate set of spheres, talents, caster level, spell points, drawbacks, and boons, which are determined similarly to but completely separate from the first set. When creating a magical effect, they must choose which of these traditions (and its associated spheres, talents, spell points, etc.) they will use; they cannot use aspects of one tradition to empower the other.Emphasis mine. This, combined with the AMA, leads me to believe that one would have separate sets of talents/spell pools (including the +2) for every class they took a level in. Just like dipping casters in normal Pathfinder.
this is read out of context. You need to have a separate casting tradition for this to apply, this doesn't have to do with the casting class ability.
In other words this lets you have some spheres use traditional casting (and thus more points) but also have a paladin like tradition, so that he can use other spheres in combat.
Multiple classes don't necessitate new traditions.
Look at the first like, it says clearly you can do this using the same class even.
Right, but they should get the +2 for each class. To do otherwise would be like a non-spherecasting Wizard/Magus only getting one spellbook. It is akin to cutting the spells known off of a character who chose to be a dual caster.
The mention of them not getting the +2 talents after the first gain of the class feature is to prevent someone from taking 5 different classes their first 5 character levels and having a ton of talents. That would be disruptive and out of line, but I don't think a gestalt caster getting the +2 from each would be.
Right, but they should get the +2 for each class. To do otherwise would be like a non-spherecasting Wizard/Magus only getting one spellbook. It is akin to cutting the spells known off of a character who chose to be a dual caster.
the difference is a non-gestalt in normal casting, 1 level wizard and 1 level magus would still have 2 spell books. In SoP they would not.
Spheres: For the bonus talents, I'd say go with only getting two unless GM's Dis says otherwise, which I will update as I get info. (Just based on the wording as follows: (Note: All casters gain 2 bonus talents and may select a casting tradition the first time they gain the casting class feature.))
Me: Based on the current applicants, I'll most likely be doing a ranged martial type, but I can spec it into healing a bit to allow us some low level survivability, but it won't be a main focus, so know it won't be much.
This is still purely speculation, as we don't know the party's actual make up at the moment, and my choice can be changed very easily because I like to take up the 'fill' role in these things. Well-rounded groups are always good.
Closing Disclaimer: As such, Bandw2 and I will be around to answer questions even those that are DM specific. Again, Red Rogue is unable to reach a computer, but we still have contact.
As an update from Red Rogue (DM) himself: Those on trial are escorted out of the room and the rest are given a very basic and lack luster meal consisting of stale bread, grain based slop, and a potato.
Those just joining us, just RP as if you have just woken in our little prison fun house.
My apologies that these details are skeleton, but I don't want to tell the story in a different detail than Red Rogue and I wasn't given a word for word. On that note, he will be providing more details upon his leave's return and we will see a much more full RP commence once again.
Those who were escorted out (Myself, Bandw2, and Rodrick), may place a short RP as they are leaving the area with everyone else, but unfortunately will be removed from RP until the trial resolves, unless you have other plans before leaving the area.
----
Prison
I offer no resistance as I'm escorted out and smile to Grum as I pass by.
"I'll see you on the outside for a good drink on me." I state with complete confidence.
I'm referencing specifically gestalt. I think the intention is that a gestalt with casting classes on both side would get the +2 twice.
I'll wait for official word from the DM, shouldn't change my character a huge amount since it's only two talents.
In my reading of it and combined with the AMA and what I would consider common sense, I would think that a Symbiat 3//Incanter 3 would get the +2 on each side, but a Symbiat 3//Incanter 1/Armorist 1/Elementalist 1 would still only have the +2 once on each side.
I'm referencing specifically gestalt. I think the intention is that a gestalt with casting classes on both side would get the +2 twice.
none of the rules were made with gestalt in mind. As my understanding would have it, even if you gained both casting from 2 classes at the same time, you still only gain the 2 free talents the First time.
So if you count them as having been acquired at the same time then you still only gained +2 from this collective gaining. If you get 1 class then the other, you still only got one of them first.
The number of magic talents a caster gains differs between
classes, but all characters gain two bonus magic talents the first
time they gain a level in a casting class, regardless of which class
is chosen.
emphasis mine
regardless, I'm not the GM, I just don't think what you've shown is actually evidence one way or the other.
I personally like the idea of getting it twice, but overall I'm going to go the safe option and expand if given the chance.
I personally like the idea of getting it twice, but overall I'm going to go the safe option and expand if given the chance.
same here
Prison:
"Hmm, seems like they're going to do the trials separately, makes sense. I still haven't been told what I was charged with."
Of course the GM is the final arbiter I just don't want to lose two talents. The AMA Tenro linked to gives at least reasonable grounds to ask for the +2 twice. Quoting for convenience:
Gestalt characters: I haven't run a gestalt game with SoP, but I'd assume that Caster Level, like BAB, would advanced with the highest included class. I'd let them take talents for both classes though, just as a cleric/wizard gestalt would get two sets of spells.
I'm not looking to be unreasonable. It would just hurt having to cut two talents this far along.
Hmm, can Illusion just make illusory darkness? I'm not sure i need to get the whole Dark sphere right off the bat, and I think I might be doing too much. then again, Feed on Darkness is pretty fitting...
GM Rulings Incoming
Extra Magic Talents: You only obtain the extra two talents once.
Illusionary Darkness Possible, but there would be rolls to allow disbelief thus having no effect on a successful save.
Hmm, I might just go with Darkness and possibly apply illusions more later. decisions! augh!
does anyone have any opinions to tip me one way or the other? both fit with my theme about the same amount, i just dont have enough talents to pull it all off well. i could do it but i'd be doing everything barely instead of doing a few things decently.
Have you looked at any of the sphere-specific drawbacks? There could be some talents to pick up there.
most of those are not in keeping with my theme. i think my theme is too expansive. I am trying to force myself to remember this is only a level 3 character.
@Party "tank": I've got a character who can provide everyone in the party DR (via animated armors); in one more level, I can use telekinesis to give every single party member a floating heavy shield that they don't need to hold (so it can apply to monks, casters, archers, etc). Maybe I should actually post Zanton's build here if people want to look over it?
And looks like the GM answered on the +2 already (it makes sense that way, IMO—because of the way talents synergize and scale, doubling talents from double caster gestalt is *significantly* more powerful than just gestalting two full caster classes for double the spells). If anyone needs ways to pick up more talents, I can give advice, since I did build a character with 9 talents on one side of the gestalt.
Hmm, I might just go with Darkness and possibly apply illusions more later. decisions! augh!
does anyone have any opinions to tip me one way or the other? both fit with my theme about the same amount, i just dont have enough talents to pull it all off well. i could do it but i'd be doing everything barely instead of doing a few things decently.
IMO, SoP's darkness is a bit... evil in its theme. I'm generally a fan of illusions—there are ways to build a character around darkness, but usually they're theme around fear rather than trickery, so I'd say see which you'd prefer to do.
* * *
Prison:
Zanton finishes his breakfast quickly. Carefully, he estimates the weight of the plate, utensils, and the potato—which he attempts to pocket without being seen, just in case he needs a weapon later.
@Tenro: Personally I'd say stick to your theme, but build into it, get a baseline and your character slowly becomes more skilled and discovers new ways to accomplish things.
That's what I'm aiming for. 4 main pillars, though I can't afford them all due to how spheres breaks down different aspects of things.
Mind
Telekinesis
Dark
Illusion
I will probably pick up Warp as well since I need him to be able to escape a grapple.
@darkness, if you focus on the meld stuff it's much less evil oriented really.
mmmmm, I'm considering making a alternative character in case a support doesn't show itself...
Yeah I may be able to work some CC in, but support (a la Life) would not really fit in with my theme too well.
Thunderbeard: If I was the GM I would have your character pocket the potato. And yes, that would make for an excellent one use improvised weapon. Poor guard...we barely new ye.
Submission is ready. All the info is in the alias. I'd appreciate if anyone had comments/concerns/feedback to offer. Sorry about the last paragraph of the backstory. Couldn't figure out a good way to word things.
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I've got a little in the way of support. Warp, time, and divination namely.
@Rednal: That is a cool idea. Doesn't fit with my theme, but a cool idea i didnt know was possible for future consideration.
If anyone likes the summoning angle, one talent in Conjuration can get you a companion you can summon and give Magical Companion (form) to, which will let them pick up the Life sphere. With some investment in the talents to conjure it more often, you can eventually develop your companion into a genuine healer, complete with its own pool of power and a good number of daily uses. XD If you're worried about flavor, you could call it something like a 'contract' you made with some entity.
Point is, there's options. o wo/ You don't have to dive into Life yourself to get healing.
I was already thinking of this for my possible alternative character
Submission is ready. All the info is in the alias. I'd appreciate if anyone had comments/concerns/feedback to offer. Sorry about the last paragraph of the backstory. Couldn't figure out a good way to word things.
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I've got a little in the way of support. Warp, time, and divination namely.
Can't comment on the mechanics, but I like the backstory. It will be interesting to see how he interacts with the other casters when it comes to forbidden lore.
@Rodrick, how are you getting +14 to all knowledges? Your human ability gives you +1, Occult Knowledge is +1. Reaper of Secrets trades away Monster Lore. So currently you've got 80 skill points invested in knowledges...
I'd also recommend against actually using Scrollblade; it's thematically cool but it'll destroy a ton of scrolls, costing an insane amount at higher levels (unless you use enhancement talent to constantly boost your weapon), and it doesn't do as much damage as basically any other weapon.
You also need to pick a deity (or deity-like tradition) to be an inquisitor, as it affects your weapon proficiencies, domain access, and aligned spells (which might not matter to you).
Comprehensive Education, human racial. It gives +1 on skill checks for all skills from class levels (and his class gives all knowledge skills as class skills). Then he has improvisation which lets him make the checks untrained and gives +2. Finally add in +1 for occultist and +1 from intelligence. Adds up to +14 each. It's a pretty sick combination.
I'd be really tempted to do that with a wizard with high intelligence or a bard. Add in greater improvisation for a further +2 and it gets even more ridiculous.