So I have recently found that my players seem a bit confused by the nature of this AP.
For context we are on Book 1 with just the excrutiation left in Part 2
I think adding in the Rebellion Rules adds a layer of confusion as they are asking why they can’t go and do things that teams do, why they can’t resolve events (such as immediately and in character going to search for a missing team from the event) and why teams can’t do the core missions as written in the book such as the salt works
(Of course I could have manipulated the event role rather than rolled to have that be the reason for a missing team)
They are also wondering if they are just killing time waiting for Rexus to do the decoding .
I am not sure if removing the mini game will actually increase the feeling of wandering around killing time
They are saying that they are not really clear how their actions are adding to the overall story (with only tooth fairies seemingly leading to an obvious dangling thread to the future ). I think I need to reiterate the stages of the rebellion as I have not spent enough time on it
Clearly part of the thought exercise is how would this play out if there was no rebellion game in the background. What is their incentive for doing all these mission?
And doesn’t Part 3 of book 1 just seem like a favour to Rexus and a chance to maybe scrap with Thrune supporters ? Why would skeptical PCs go to Hocums ? I suppose once they find Thrune followers there it is a thread in a greater mystery. But getting them there in the first place?
And on to the rebellion rules which I have posted about separately - I have only just noticed they get bumped to rank 10 at the end of the adventure regardless. So is the only incentive of doing it organically to gain the boobs earlier? Is there no boon for already being at rank 10 and compete if the book? And should I let them know that this could be automatic or self driven and it is down to them how they choose to drive it and when they want to rewards? Or keep that hidden ?
The AP is fun and looks to have some interesting things coming up but is very very different from the more traditional location hoping direct problem solving adventure most players and indeed GMs are used to ...
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Before I get into it, perhaps the simplest thing to do is to start the Fantasmagorium now. Your players seem to want a direct strike on Thrune and this provides it. You can always circle back to the other events, or even skip them.
As to "We're not doing enough" complaints:
This is a common misapprehension of the role of the organizer in mass movements, because of the individualist bias of our media and culture. Organizers try not to do things. They try to delegate tasks to organic leaders as much as possible. If you're doing everything in your rebellion, you will be hurting the rebellion.
What happens is that if the leader does everything, their ability to handle everything maxes out and they burnout. Meanwhile, your membership refers to it as "the rebellion" and not "our rebellion" because they are never asked to do anything or given responsibility. That also goes for setbacks, as interventionist leaders can teach their team leads that they are not trusted in a crisis. (And you are NOT in any crises in book one of the rebellion!) Team leaders need to know that they won't be benched for making a mistake and that they will be trusted to fix it. So, they have to pick and choose when they will intervene, which should be based on time and difficulty. The PCs should err on the side of delegation and handle only those tasks that NEED their direct attention.
The way that people and organizations get started is that they climb the ladder of responsibility and risk. I got started first by being asked to go to a labor documentary. Then I was asked to go to a meeting. Then to vote on a contract. Then to hand out flyers. Then to call members and get them to join. Then to run for office. Then to negotiate a contract. Organizations start with the tasks they can accomplish and build a reputation for getting things done which then builds capacity, as people want to join such an organization. Nobody's going to fight Thrune until the organization shows that it is competent enough to fight Thrune. You do that not by raiding the Temple of Asmodeus, but by taking on a small task and getting progressively bigger.
The Salt Works has several advantages: It causes economic and prestige harm to Thrune with no damage to Kintargo’s citizens; smaller, locally-owned salt works would have to take over the work; and you get a team out of it. It's a blow for the workers and small business owners in a key industry: you literally can't live without salt. Having Thrune control that industry means that he has control over life and death at everyone's dinner table.
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They are saying that they are not really clear how their actions are adding to the overall story (with only tooth fairies seemingly leading to an obvious dangling thread to the future ). I think I need to reiterate the stages of the rebellion as I have not spent enough time on it
It's called member services. When a member comes to your organization with a problem, solving it shows the value of membership to them and everyone they talk to about it. The Red Jills shows that the Ravens can take on crime. The Salt Works is an indirect shot at Thrune and helps out laborers (no prison labor!) and small business owners in the industry who will not face a Thrune-aided incipient monopoly. Recruiting is adding capacity. Teams show the development of leaders. And they've got a base of operations.
But, hey, if they want to spend an action to do a street protest or graffiti propaganda, that's what the Special Action in rebellion actions is for.
I have only just noticed they get bumped to rank 10 at the end of the adventure regardless.
No, they don't. They get their maximum rank bumped to 10. They have to earn their way to rank ten in book 2.
And doesn’t Part 3 of book 1 just seem like a favour to Rexus and a chance to maybe scrap with Thrune supporters ? Why would skeptical PCs go to Hocums ? I suppose once they find Thrune followers there it is a thread in a greater mystery. But getting them there in the first place?
The way it played out at my table was that the PCs thought he was just in mourning. But he was an officer and had decoded the texts, so they decided to check it out, like any human being would. They did a stake out. They asked around. They found confirmation of Asmodean priests going in and out of an abandoned freak museum, which was definitely suspicious. Then they acted.
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roguerouge said it better, but I'll say it my way anyways:
The point of the smaller missions is to get the city on their side. Otherwise, if they were able to overthrow the government, why would anyone have a reason to follow them other than because they got rid of the bad guy? (A bad guy that a lot of people don't see as terrible, just someone that has enacted some weird/restrictive laws but they might side with him as the new laws and curfew are "for their protection").
The PCs need to take the time to be seen as heroes of the city. Getting rid of the Red Jills, freeing wrongfully imprisoned people, helping the community.... that's all building up the trust of the city.
"Why can't the teams do these things/why can't we do what the teams do?" is one of the main reasons I didn't use the rebellion mechanic.
I hate that aspect of it.
"doesn’t Part 3 of book 1 just seem like a favour to Rexus?"
Because helping an ally that's doing something for you over several weeks is a bad thing?
I have only just noticed they get bumped to rank 10 at the end of the adventure regardless.No, they don't. They get their maximum rank bumped to 10. They have to earn their way to rank ten in book 2.
Thanks for all the responses
What is the maximum rank before the end of Part 3 then? I think I have missed something completely . Mine are at rank 7 right now. I assume this is wrong ?
roguerouge said it better, but I'll say it my way anyways:
The point of the smaller missions is to get the city on their side. Otherwise, if they were able to overthrow the government, why would anyone have a reason to follow them other than because they got rid of the bad guy? (A bad guy that a lot of people don't see as terrible, just someone that has enacted some weird/restrictive laws but they might side with him as the new laws and curfew are "for their protection").
The PCs need to take the time to be seen as heroes of the city. Getting rid of the Red Jills, freeing wrongfully imprisoned people, helping the community.... that's all building up the trust of the city."Why can't the teams do these things/why can't we do what the teams do?" is one of the main reasons I didn't use the rebellion mechanic.
I hate that aspect of it."doesn’t Part 3 of book 1 just seem like a favour to Rexus?"
Because helping an ally that's doing something for you over several weeks is a bad thing?
I like this. They probably hadn’t considered that some people might support him even if it is through naivety
Is it said the the prisoners of the salt are wrongfully there? Or is this just a link made as they are held by a thug and the CCG?
As to the last paragraph I have sat in / joined in on some recent games my group have played that started before I GMs this . For two of them it was their first real foray in the TTRPG and another his first real games in 10+ years. The majority of this campaign had large elements of the players simply being selfish mercenaries with no real driving force. Through no fault of his own the GM had no really set up an initial hook that the paizo ones try to do (especially with the help of campaign traits). So with them there is always a risk of them not seeing what is in it for them directly (or them plus rebellion)
All that said I am being over paranoid there. These characters are much more linked to the story per my request and they are aware of rexus being and ally and officer. Indeed he had to help them when they rescued him after being brought up with a channel. So I expect it to be fine
I have only just noticed they get bumped to rank 10 at the end of the adventure regardless.No, they don't. They get their maximum rank bumped to 10. They have to earn their way to rank ten in book 2.Thanks for all the responses
What is the maximum rank before the end of Part 3 then? I think I have missed something completely . Mine are at rank 7 right now. I assume this is wrong ?
Maximum rank is 5 until the end of the Fantasmagorium.
Then the max rank is 10 until the Lucky Bones is cleared out and used as a larger rebel base in book 2.
THEN max rank is 15 until after the Ruby Masquerade.
When book 4 starts, the max rank jumps to 20.
I have only just noticed they get bumped to rank 10 at the end of the adventure regardless.No, they don't. They get their maximum rank bumped to 10. They have to earn their way to rank ten in book 2.Thanks for all the responses
What is the maximum rank before the end of Part 3 then? I think I have missed something completely . Mine are at rank 7 right now. I assume this is wrong ?
Maximum rank is 5 until the end of the Fantasmagorium.
Then the max rank is 10 until the Lucky Bones is cleared out and used as a larger rebel base in book 2.
THEN max rank is 15 until after the Ruby Masquerade.
When book 4 starts, the max rank jumps to 20.
What page is the rank 5 cap on?
What page is the rank 5 cap on?
Hell's Rebels Player's Guide, page 21:
"Rank: The rebellion starts at rank 1, and can progress as high as rank 5 during the first adventure, “In Hell’s Bright Shadow.”"
In Hell's Bright Shadow, page 22 (Under Step 1-Rally and Recruit):
"Completing these missions helps to raise the rebellion’s maximum rank to 10 at this adventure’s end."
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Is it said the the prisoners of the salt are wrongfully there? Or is this just a link made as they are held by a thug and the CCG?
Page 29 says that Forvian Crowe is friends with Laria and has worked with her in the past. Chances are they were imprisoned on suspicion of being connected to illegal activity.
The AP doesn't specify. It's up to the individual GM to decide minor details like that.
What page is the rank 5 cap on?
Hell's Rebels Player's Guide, page 21:
"Rank: The rebellion starts at rank 1, and can progress as high as rank 5 during the first adventure, “In Hell’s Bright Shadow.”"In Hell's Bright Shadow, page 22 (Under Step 1-Rally and Recruit):
"Completing these missions helps to raise the rebellion’s maximum rank to 10 at this adventure’s end."
Thanks that explains my issues
I was specifically looking for references to Rank 5 in Book 1 and didn’t think of the guide
I assume they can carry on recruting supporters above he number in rank 5 but just won’t advance in ranks? And then once the cap gets lifted they could jump several rungs at once ?
I think the rebellion in mine has attempted recruitment every turn for 7 weeks (apart from one complete pie low) and got one natural 20 on attrition. With the bonuses from the part 2 actions this has put them on enough supporters for Rank 7 before part 3 has even started...
I have a few observations that are slightly different than the comments above (which are largely on point and valuable.)
Whether you use the Rebellion mini-game or not, the premise of the AP is the pc's are leading a rebellion. They aren't forming the Avengers; they are akin to the Founding Fathers of the United States. Sure Washington and Jefferson and Franklin, etc. were very important, but dozens upon hundreds of other people had critical roles/work to do. The purpose of the Silver Ravens isn't to help the leaders (the pc's) find interesting encounters and people to kill; it's to create an alternate governing structure for Kintargo that is free of Thrune and Asmodeus.
The reason the pc's don't do the actions of the Rebellion is that they are tedious - while the time element is not perfect, the assumption is that a team spends the entire week doing that action - it is that team's full time job for the next 7 days. The leaders of the Silver Ravens have other work to do. The most dangerous work. No, a Rebellion team can't really tackle the Salt Works. Because a) the need is far too early for the Rebellion to have a team with the ability (Rescue Character) and b) even if they did, the Rescue Character action only rescues 1 NPC - there are 6 in the Salt Works. The prisoners will die before they could all be rescued by a team. This is job for the pc's - they are the only ones that can take on a job that dangerous that quickly.
No, going to Hokum's not simply a favor for Rexus. He's the quest giver (if you will) but even if he were to die, the Silver Ravens need to go there. The most critical piece of information they get from Rexus is - Hokum's was the base for the Sacred Order of Archivists. The Sacred Order are top priority allies for the Silver Ravens and almost certainly possess an immense trove of information that would be of inestimable value to the Rebellion. They aren't just going to find Rexus' Mom, they are going to find the leader of a religious order dedicated to knowledge and truth who will know all kinds of unredacted history. Okay, it turns out they're all dead and the library sacked by the Asdmodeans - but the pc's don't know that when they learn of it. And even then there are all kinds of interesting things to learn there (and treasures to find.)
I am making an NPC connected to a pc be a salt prisoner and archivist
They left that quest until second to last and it solved the issue of Rexus apparently knowing the location the whole time quite elegantly I feel
Some further parts I would quite like to clarify:
- Why would PCs ever use a gather information rebellion action over simply spending 1d4 hours themselves? I get that conceptually they are supposed to do other things and have higher priorities but that doesn’t seem like too much of a time constraint and conversely not a good use of an action (but an easy DC I suppose)
- If they look back in hindsight they could reasonably ask why they couldn’t do all of the rumour follow up actions in one week. I think I might even have dissuaded them and pushed the time on (which i obviously shouldn’t have done). They might feel the time hops have been arbitrary - I will solve this in the future by putting them squarely in their hands
Has anyone else had a group that just wants to rattle through all the missions? And did you let them or control it ?
Has anyone else had a group that just wants to rattle through all the missions? And did you let them or control it?
Something to keep in mind is that you don't have to have all of the missions ready to go and be solved right away.
Things should be relatively calm in the city. The Fair Fortune Livery and clearing out the Wasp's Nest happen pretty close together so that you have the documents and have somewhere safe to start working on them.But other than that.... Blosodriette can take her time doing things and it can been weeks between each of her things, the group can investigate the fires whenever they want (or you can delay it by having guards patrolling the areas often, which makes sense for the beginning of the adventure), the people in the Salt Works can be imprisoned at any point that you choose (it doesn't have to be on or right after the Night of Ashes), the PCs can find out about the Tooth Fairies whenever you want... there's a lot of hatred against the tieflings so maybe it took a few weeks for someone to realize that there's a slight pattern to a small percentage of the ones that are dying after the Night of Ashes, the problems at Clenchjaw's could take weeks as it depends on how long it takes for the culprit to get bored and start causing problems, similar things for the Excruciation and the Red Jills... the Jills are likely quiet for the first while after Thrune comes to town and it would take the CCG a little while to get up the nerve to do what they do and feel secure about not being punished for it.
It's not that you have to force time-hops... it's that sometimes nothing is happening for a few days/weeks. But allow the players the chance to say what they want to do and possibly throw in some encounters with the dottari, CCG, devils, or random things around town.
The same thing can be done with books 2 and 3 if you want. But be sure to ask the players what they're doing during those periods. (You also don't have to play out every encounter. Maybe do a couple and then start to describe them as "during the week you have a few skirmishes with the CCG/dottari. Sometimes a couple get away in the crowd.")
- Why would PCs ever use a gather information rebellion action over simply spending 1d4 hours themselves? I get that conceptually they are supposed to do other things and have higher priorities but that doesn’t seem like too much of a time constraint and conversely not a good use of an action (but an easy DC I suppose)
I think that's there for parties that have no one even minimally competent at it. My table does not have that problem-they have two gods of diplomacy.
I am making an NPC connected to a pc be a salt prisoner and archivist
They left that quest until second to last and it solved the issue of Rexus apparently knowing the location the whole time quite elegantly I feel
Some further parts I would quite like to clarify:
- Why would PCs ever use a gather information rebellion action over simply spending 1d4 hours themselves? I get that conceptually they are supposed to do other things and have higher priorities but that doesn’t seem like too much of a time constraint and conversely not a good use of an action (but an easy DC I suppose)
- If they look back in hindsight they could reasonably ask why they couldn’t do all of the rumour follow up actions in one week. I think I might even have dissuaded them and pushed the time on (which i obviously shouldn’t have done). They might feel the time hops have been arbitrary - I will solve this in the future by putting them squarely in their hands
Has anyone else had a group that just wants to rattle through all the missions? And did you let them or control it ?
The Gather Information action serves multiple possible purposes - one (as suggested by roguerouge) is for parties with limited ability. But it also might be used by parties that want to gather more information than they have time for or by parties that don't want to take the risk of wandering around the city for 4 hours searching for information, perhaps encountering more dottari, racking up notoriety etc. I'm only just starting Book 2 but I'm also thinking about letting higher tier teams gather information that isn't available "on the street." I don't care how good your diplomacy is, you can't learn the combination to the bank vault with a pub crawl.
I agree the pacing of the AP might be one of the hardest elements in running it given the adventure is a series of encounters that can be done in differing order and predicated on having heard rumors, gathered information or connecting with the right NPC. I've struggled with keeping the party engaged with options for further investigation/action and yet maintain a sequence that matches the pc's level, like they shouldn't go after Scarplume until 3rd level, etc. I've added the optional rumors to "the table" plus added hints at events and people from future books and information about magic items. One element here is not to give them all the rumors "at once" even if they are "spamming" gather information efforts. Sometimes, there's nothing more to learn.