say i'm a dragon, and my bite attack has the reach of a creature one size larger, can i try to hit with a touch spell using that reach? or do i have the hold the charge and try to attack normal AC with the bite?
Touching and biting are two entirely different things.
Biting means you are trying to smash your teeth through their armor and shield to do damage to their flesh and bones. Touching means you just need to barely make contact with any part of them, doing no damage, not even penetrating their armor. Very different.
Arguably, I might not allow a dragon to deliver touch spells with its face. There are no rules that I know of that say you MUST deliver touch spells with your hands (claws), but it kind of makes sense - after you do all the casting with your hands, then delivering the touch spell by licking the target seems a bit weird.
But that might just be me; if you and your GM agree that a dragon can deliver a touch spell with its face (which seems to be the RAW answer anyway), then you certainly get the benefit of your reach.
But you would not be Biting and Touching with the spell on the same round that you cast the spell (biting is at least a standard action and casting the spell is at least a standard action). But if you cast the spell on one round, then "Hold the Charge", next round you can Bite AND deliver your Touch spell too - but if you do this, just remember that you're attacking the normal AC, not the Touch AC.
The gripli feat Agile Tongue allows you to make melee touch attacks at reach. The way it is worded, is that this is a limitation (it doesn't let you make regular melee attacks, just a few maneuvers and touch attacks) however it is certainly an example that a touch attack don't have to be with your hand.
And of course, as stated, you can also make a normal unarmed attack or natural weapon attack while holding the charge at it will discharge the spell if you hit.
It is my impression that any unarmed or natural attack can be used to deliver a touch spell.
Arguably, I might not allow a dragon to deliver touch spells with its face. There are no rules that I know of that say you MUST deliver touch spells with your hands (claws), but it kind of makes sense - after you do all the casting with your hands, then delivering the touch spell by licking the target seems a bit weird.
More often than not you're doing half the casting with your mouth.
The rules specifically state you can deliver a held touch spell using a natural attack so delivering a touch spell on the round it is cast with your longest reach limb (in this case, the dragon's neck) seems appropriate.
I would say yes.
More often than not you're doing half the casting with your mouth.Arguably, I might not allow a dragon to deliver touch spells with its face. There are no rules that I know of that say you MUST deliver touch spells with your hands (claws), but it kind of makes sense - after you do all the casting with your hands, then delivering the touch spell by licking the target seems a bit weird.
Ahh, so licking the enemy does have a rationalization after all...
I am the GM for charity's sake. Just wondering if you need to use your normal reach or if you have extended reach with a natural attack you can apply touch attacks with that reach.
though the idea of a dragon nuzzling someone with shocking grasp does seem hilarious.
I know about holding the charge, I was specifically asking if to get the extended range I'd have to hold the charge to the next round.
I see no reason why you'd have to hold the charge until the next round.
because i know you can attack with a natural attack and expend the held charge, but NOT if you can just us the natural attack to touch people.
Bandw2, the rule regarding natural weapons and held charge is the RAI for delivering the touch attack with a limb that has that reach. Hence referencing it.
If the limb can be used to deliver a held charge (a different question) then it follows that it can be used to deliver a charge on the same turn it is cast.
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How about this: you can't deliver touch attacks with your face because there is no facing in Pathfinder combat...
;)
Nefreet, I do not mean that you can cast and bite. I didn't say bite. I was referencing limb, not specific natural weapons.
The question here is why do people think you can't deliver a touch spell (on the round it is cast) with a limb that can deliver a touch spell (on the round after)?
The fact you are using a natural weapon should not change the reach involved. Either the limb has the reach or it does not. And since some limbs are longer than others those limbs have a longer reach.
The question here is why do people think you can't deliver a touch spell (on the round it is cast) with a limb that can deliver a touch spell (on the round after)?
Nobody thinks that.
I said I might argue that it's weird to deliver touch spells with your face. I also said it's just fine by RAW.
Nefreet, my apologies, it seemed you were responding to me because I was the poster prior to you and you didnt direct it to someone else. :)
back from getting home from work.
thanks for the info. It felt kinda like the rules wouldn't allow it but even if it did make sense realistically.