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Making a (most likely Half-Orc) warpriest of Gorum utilizing TWF and all the bonus static damage WP get access to like Divine Favor, Destruction Blessing, and Weapon Specialization. I can accomplish this using a double weapon or I can go Kukris, but I could use some advice on choosing which route to go.
On one hand, if i go Orc Double Axe I can get 1.5x strength and bonus power attack damage whenever I end up only getting standard action attacks, which is fairly frequently. I can also cast spells without needing Fervor and also without having to drop a weapon. Quick Draw is not as needed either since it is just one weapon. With Half-Orc Weapon familiarity, I gain proficiency in it from level one.
On the other, going Kukris not only has the benefit of equal damage dice by lv5 as the Orc Double Axe (1d8) thanks to sacred weapon, I also have the higher critical threat range. With the human favored class bonus to get more combat feats, I could get an extra combat feat at 8 to get Improved Critical right away. I have the feats for quick draw early on, too. The drawback is I can't cast spells without using fervor unless I drop a kukri. This also applies for using fervor to heal myself when needed.
One other option would be to pick up Two-Bladed Sword Prof and get improved critical with that (not as good as kukris, but it's the only double weapon with 19-20 crit range)
I do plan on conserving spells pretty much solely for use with Fervor, preparing spells like divine favor and shield of faith almost exclusively, but I also want one or two spells available for as needed status removal spells.
Also, slightly different topic, what about battle pois? it seems like fun with Sacred Weapon to deal just fire damage damage, but it also seems a bit too convoluted to use in PFS. Edit* Realized Sacred Weapon does not allow weapons that only deal elemental damage to increase the damage die
A double weapon requires strength to attack with, kukris can attack with dex alone, and of course you need a fair bit of dex for the TWF prereqs. Quick draw is no more relevant for kukris than the axe (Draw or sheathe a weapon: If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one). On the other hand you're right about the advantage on a standard action attack of having a big axe to swing.
There's no one right answer here but maybe those points will help you decide.
I think instead of kukris you should look at wielding cestuses. Light, 19-20 threat range, B or P, and leaves your hands free. If you weren't going with a caster I would say double axe all day just for style, but you want paired weapons and need a hand free so the cestus is the only thing I can think of that fits the bill.
The double axe is a good choice if you are planning to do nonfervor casting in combat, it being a free action to take a hand on or off the weapon. If you intend to only cast with fervor then the kukris will pull ahead on damage.
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@avr: oh yeah, I forgot about that rule about drawing two weapons. I really wish it just stated that rule in the TWF feat. As for the build, I am going strength based but I will have the Dex to twf.
@Darigaaz: Hmm, I hadn't considered the Cestus before, and thanks to sacred weapon it's really not a bad choice. In my original build, I was planning on getting weapon versatility, so weapon damage type isn't super important for me.
@Java Man: I do want to have the option of casting a cure spell on an ally or using a status removal spell like remove paralysis without needing to retrieve a weapon. Most of my in combat casting would be fervor, but I want to have my options open.
@Magrim: I have the orc trait that gives me a bite attack for that specific purpose.
I think I want to go with the orc double axe, mostly because thematically it's an awesome weapon but also because of the free hand issue as well as the standard action 2h attacks.
If you like the idea of the Orc Double Axe, I'd recommend giving the Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain archetype a look.
The most important thing the archetype does is essentially trade in the scaling damage dice given to you by sacred weapon in return for the Fighter's weapon training class feature. Since the Double Axe already has a fairly decent damage die on it, the tradeoff isn't quite so onerous.
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My biggest problem with that archetype is it forces me into using the war blessing rather than the strength and destruction blessings that I was planning. Those blessings combined give me an enhancement bonus equal to half my WP level on attack and damage rolls, which is a pretty significant. That being said, gloves of duelling would put me at a +4 by level 9, and doesn't require any prebuffing.
As per PFS rules, the arsenal champion cannot get advanced weapon training from the class, but would I be able to pick up the Advanced Weapon Training feat with my warpriest bonus feats, since I count as a fighter for them?
I'd say go with the Double Axe purely for the sheer image of it. An orc rampaging around with a dual bladed axe just seems cooler to me. You need Weapon Training to be able to pick up the Advanced Weapon Training, and since yours doesn't count, you can't pick it up. It's what make a variety of fighter archetypes not nearly as good as they used to be.
I'd say go with the Double Axe purely for the sheer image of it. An orc rampaging around with a dual bladed axe just seems cooler to me. You need Weapon Training to be able to pick up the Advanced Weapon Training, and since yours doesn't count, you can't pick it up. It's what make a variety of fighter archetypes not nearly as good as they used to be.
The arsenal chaplain's weapon training counts. You can't forfeit the second choice but you can take the feat.
Same for a number of those fighter archetypes, if it specifically says "you must take weapon training with X" or is just referred to as weapon training (dragoon and unarmed fighter respectively) For both of those you have the weapon training prerequisite of the feat, but don't have the opportunity to trade later weapon trainings away for an AWT.
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I took it over to the PFS forum and it appears that with what the additional resources guide state, the archetype cannot get any advanced weapon training, even from the feat. That said, I was never really sold on the archetype; the strength and destruction blessings are much better than the war blessing alone, so I'm not giving that up.
Ah, PFS, the worst aspect of pathfinder, hindering all martial power while doing next to nothing to trim back the most powerful classes in the game.
To be fair to PFS, a warpriest is CoDzilla junior. With a few extra bells and whistles it might make it up to full CoDzilla...
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Here's my build. It's pretty strong if he takes 1 round to buff, and even if he doesn't fully buff he's still a TWF monster.
Half-orc Warpriest of Gorum, 20 point buy, PFS
Alternate racial traits: Sacred Tattoo (replaces orc ferocity), skilled (replaces darkvision) [being able to cast the spell myself is worth getting one extra skill point]
Traits: Fates Favored, Toothy
Blessings: Strength, Destruction
Str 16+2
Dex 13+2 (From a PFS boon)
Con 14
Int 11
Wis 14
Cha 7
1) TWF
1) Weapon Focus(Orc Double axe)
3) Power Attack
3) Weapon Versatility
5) Double Slice
6) Improved TWF
6(favored class bonus) Weapon Spec (double axe)
7) Improved Initiative
9) Hammer the Gap
9) not sure yet, but retrainig the bonus feat to Two Weapon Rend at lv11
11) Quicken Blessing (Destruction)
Ferver a divine favor and use the destruction blessing for a +4 to hit and +9 to damage per hit at the highest levels (10+), and I can throw in strength blessing if I need to get higher accuracy. With haste, bite attack and improved twf, I'm at 6 attacks per round at around 1d10+30 and I think a +27/22 to hit if I also use strength blessing.
Martial focus is generally at least as good for damage as hammer the gap. Any miss in the sequence of attacks resets HtGs damage bonus to zero and it also only counts during one round's full attack. You have to hit 4 times in a row in one round to beat martial focus at all, more for a noticeable advantage. Obviously on a standard action attack MF can apply and HtG just can't.
The difficult swings feat might be good at level 9, for however long you keep it. Or greater weapon focus.
Here's my build. It's pretty strong if he takes 1 round to buff, and even if he doesn't fully buff he's still a TWF monster.
Half-orc Warpriest of Gorum, 20 point buy, PFS
Alternate racial traits: Sacred Tattoo (replaces orc ferocity), skilled (replaces darkvision) [being able to cast the spell myself is worth getting one extra skill point]Traits: Fates Favored, Toothy
Blessings: Strength, DestructionStr 16+2
Dex 13+2 (From a PFS boon)
Con 14
Int 11
Wis 14
Cha 71) TWF
1) Weapon Focus(Orc Double axe)
3) Power Attack
3) Weapon Versatility
5) Double Slice
6) Improved TWF
6(favored class bonus) Weapon Spec (double axe)
7) Improved Initiative
9) Hammer the Gap
9) not sure yet, but retrainig the bonus feat to Two Weapon Rend at lv11
11) Quicken Blessing (Destruction)Ferver a divine favor and use the destruction blessing for a +4 to hit and +9 to damage per hit at the highest levels (10+), and I can throw in strength blessing if I need to get higher accuracy. With haste, bite attack and improved twf, I'm at 6 attacks per round at around 1d10+30 and I think a +27/22 to hit if I also use strength blessing.
Interesting build, thought I have some concerns:
* With a BAB penalty, TWF penalty, PA penalty (and at some point probably also a Buckler penalty if you wish to keep your AC up), swift Fervor buffing has a lot to overcome, especially at low levels.
* A build without the PFS boon will have to sack another attribute in order to find higher initial dexterity as it will lack the necessary 17 to meet the requirements of ITWF. (6th-level WBL will likely preclude a +4 belt.)
* If I'm not mistaken, Destruction blessing's Heart of Carnage bonus to attacks applies only to crit-confirmations, and the Strength blessing's bonus to attacks is an enhancement bonus that won't stack with your weapon's magical bonus. (Paizo giveth, and taketh away....)
* Hammer the Gap generates easily-forgotten minuscule damage gains; I'd take almost anything else. The killer wording in the feat is "...this turn" (meaning it resets every round, preventing it from scaling sweetly in a marathon slugfest versus fast-regen and/or uber-DR creatures, which is where you really need it). The choice of weapon limits the crit-multiplication applicability.
* An orc double-axe is a frankly lackluster d8/d8 weapon; a double-bladed sword uses the same dice, but at least doubles your crit range.
* Enlarging would help the attack stack stat but harm TWF by dropping dex.
* Double-weapon annoyances versus paired light weapons:
-- cannot be used in certain situations (grappled, swallowed, etc)
-- GM variation on whether or not broken/sunder affects the entire weapon
-- Inability to quickdraw both ends simultaneously from two Scabbards of Vigor
-- none (aside from quarterstaff) that do not require racial or exotic proficiency
....when all's said and done, the appeal of these weapons (which have always been 3rd edition's bastard red-headed stepchildren made to live under the stairs) wanes in comparison with the rich variety of weapons that have appeared over the last ten years.
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Here's my build. It's pretty strong if he takes 1 round to buff, and even if he doesn't fully buff he's still a TWF monster.
Half-orc Warpriest of Gorum, 20 point buy, PFS
Alternate racial traits: Sacred Tattoo (replaces orc ferocity), skilled (replaces darkvision) [being able to cast the spell myself is worth getting one extra skill point]Traits: Fates Favored, Toothy
Blessings: Strength, DestructionStr 16+2
Dex 13+2 (From a PFS boon)
Con 14
Int 11
Wis 14
Cha 71) TWF
1) Weapon Focus(Orc Double axe)
3) Power Attack
3) Weapon Versatility
5) Double Slice
6) Improved TWF
6(favored class bonus) Weapon Spec (double axe)
7) Improved Initiative
9) Hammer the Gap
9) not sure yet, but retrainig the bonus feat to Two Weapon Rend at lv11
11) Quicken Blessing (Destruction)Ferver a divine favor and use the destruction blessing for a +4 to hit and +9 to damage per hit at the highest levels (10+), and I can throw in strength blessing if I need to get higher accuracy. With haste, bite attack and improved twf, I'm at 6 attacks per round at around 1d10+30 and I think a +27/22 to hit if I also use strength blessing.
Interesting build, thought I have some concerns:
* With a BAB penalty, TWF penalty, PA penalty (and at some point probably also a Buckler penalty if you wish to keep your AC up), swift Fervor buffing has a lot to overcome, especially at low levels.
* A build without the PFS boon will have to sack another attribute in order to find higher initial dexterity as it will lack the necessary 17 to meet the requirements of ITWF. (6th-level WBL will likely preclude a +4 belt.)
* If I'm not mistaken, Destruction blessing's Heart of Carnage bonus to attacks applies only to crit-confirmations, and the Strength blessing's bonus to attacks is an enhancement bonus that won't stack with your weapon's magical bonus. (Paizo giveth, and taketh away....)
* Hammer the Gap generates easily-forgotten minuscule damage gains; I'd take almost anything else. The killer...
* eh, AC won't be too bad since I'll have at least medium armor and shield of faith. No buckler will be neccesary. Doing the math I'm able to get in the mid to high 20s to hit on all attacks.
*I'm starting at 15 dex at level 1 thanks to the boon, and getting a +2 enhancement bonus to Dex by level 6 is easy.
*Destruction minor blessing gives me 1/2 my WP lvl in damage as a morale bonus. It's a standard action to use and lasts for a minute. The Strength minor blessing gives me an enhancement bonus to MY weapon attacks. An enhancement bonus with my weapon is an enhancement bonus applied to the weapon, and the strength blessing applies to me, so they should stack together.
*I'm reconsidering hammer the Gap, I'm just looking for other good feats in place of it.
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Strength Surge (minor): At 1st level, as a swift action you can focus your own strength. You gain an enhancement bonus equal to 1/2 your warpriest level (minimum +1) on melee attack rolls, combat maneuver checks that rely on Strength, Strength-based skills, and Strength checks for 1 round.
A magic weapon is enhanced to strike more truly and deliver more damage. Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. They apply these bonuses to both attack and damage rolls when used in combat. All magic weapons are also masterwork weapons, but their masterwork bonuses on attack rolls do not stack with their enhancement bonuses on attack rolls.
Strength blessing doesn't stack with weapon enhancements.
As per the question, kukris are mechanically better for several reasons, but since you're playing PFS (which arguably doesn't require a too high degree of optimization), I'd say go with the double axe, since it's definitely cooler!
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Oh, for some reason I thought the bonuses stacked. Oh well.
I'd still likely want to take that blessing anyway, as it means I can keep my weapons at +1 and tack on special qualities without missing out on crucial to-hit bonuses when I really need it.
And yeah, kukris would be better especially if I snag Improved Critical at lv8 either by delaying favored class bonus by 2 levels or retraining. That being said, Orc Double Axe is really cool and I won't need to bother crit fishing. And it DOES have the advantage of being able to cast standard action spells (stabilize, Remove X, etc) for allies without dropping a weapon, AND it's good for the times I can only get 1 attack in a round by 2handing it.
Oh, for some reason I thought the bonuses stacked. Oh well.
I'd still likely want to take that blessing anyway, as it means I can keep my weapons at +1 and tack on special qualities without missing out on crucial to-hit bonuses when I really need it.And yeah, kukris would be better especially if I snag Improved Critical at lv8 either by delaying favored class bonus by 2 levels or retraining. That being said, Orc Double Axe is really cool and I won't need to bother crit fishing. And it DOES have the advantage of being able to cast standard action spells (stabilize, Remove X, etc) for allies without dropping a weapon, AND it's good for the times I can only get 1 attack in a round by 2handing it.
The only real downside to the double-axe is that you'll need high strength for hitting, 17 dex for ITWF, and the obligatory wis and con for casting and not dying.
Q1. How high level do you intend to play this character in PFS? --Gray Warden is right about the relatively soft ride much of PFS is (especially in recent years), but the gloves DO start coming off at some point. (In my experience, the most dangerous stretches in PFS are Tier 3/4 when tables are still a mess but stronger monsters begin appearing, and Tier 10+ when the gloves come off and your "Achilles Heel" saving throw blemishes are sorely tempting St. Murphy.)
Q2. Can your boon go to any stat? (And: can it put you over 20?)
I literally never noticed before that healing yourself with fervor isn't explicitly "no-handed". I always assumed if you could cast CLW on yourself with fervor and hands full, you could also just use straight fervor for the same.
I'd maybe argue that you can in fact touch yourself without having a hand free (you can deliver touch attacks through Unarmed strikes after all, and those could use a foot). Just tap your ankles together, and BAM! You've touched yourself.
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Slim Jim:
Well I played my character as a level 1 the other day for the first time (PFS allows total rebuilds until you play the character at level 2+). I wasn't really looking at multiclassing except /maybe/ evangelist since I don't want to delay fervor, spellcasting, and my blessings bonuses. PFS normally takes you through level 11, but there is lv12+ content (sanctioned APs, some modules, some specials) that I haven't played yet. As for saves, I'm a Half-Orc warpriest with sacred tattoo and fate's favored with what will eventually be 17+ Dex and good fort/will saves. I'll be okay on that front. My achilles heel will definitely be my inability to get to enemies from a distance.
My boon is applied after the character has been created, and yes, it can push a stat to 22. But now that you've mentioned it, I realize applying that boon would really help me even out my stats if I put it in strength; 14+4, 15, 14, 12, 14, 7 is better than what I originally had.
Virid:
Fervor is weird like that. You can hands-off cast a cure spell on yourself but you have to have a hand free to heal using the fervor die, even though they're essentially the same action. That being said, I was more referring to the fact that I want to be able to help out allies on an as-needed basis. Calm emotions if they get confused, remove paralysis, etc. Those I need the hand-wavy part of spellcasting. I want this character to be a team player and not just always go nova on enemies. My two main buff spells for my entire career will be shield of faith and divine favor, so my other spell slots will be to fill the support role at a table.
Looks like you've got it covered. Smash away.
Slim Jim: Well I played my character as a level 1 the other day for the first time (PFS allows total rebuilds until you play the character at level 2+).Not only that, but the "Retraining rules" are also legal, so you can rebuild a character even after that, albeit one piece at a time at some, usually small monetary expense. (Great for swapping out feats.) Important note, however: initial attributes aren't something you can change with it.
My boon is applied after the character has been created, and yes, it can push a stat to 22. But now that you've mentioned it, I realize applying that boon would really help me even out my stats if I put it in strength; 14+4, 15, 14, 12, 14, 7 is better than what I originally had.
Excellent! You're using the 15,14,14,14,12,7 20pt array, which is the most positive bonus-dense 20pt distribution, and lines up well with the 4th-8th level sweet spot for most PFS play. (I would "slow play" for half-XP during those levels, assuming the campaign hasn't croaked due to P2 problems by then.)
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Given your OP query as to which weapon was better, I take it you're not entirely wedded to the double-axe, so let me pose a possibility you may find interesting:
Attributes: same array, but with the 15 in str (19 after adjustment) and shunt 14 to dex. Use a garden-variety polearm (I love the bardiche) early on. You won't have TWF, but will net as many or more actual attacks due to frequent AoOs generated by mindless (or stupid) opponents with only 5' reach. And you save a feat.
As soon as you've 1500gp spare cash. pick up an opalescent white pyramid ioun stone and stick it in the free wayfinder all Pathfinders begin play with. Key the stone to Butchering Axe. This works for you because Warpriests have martial weapon proficiency. Cultivate an addiction to enlarge person potions (if not Strength domain, in which case by a wand for 2 prestige points).
At 6th, take Vital Strike at 6th and Devastating Strike at 9th, and be clobbering with an 8d6+12 *base* weapon as a standard action while Enlarged. --Game sessions are all about the memories, and sometimes it's just pantsloads more fun when you have a gigantic, "everything including the kitchen sink" massive attack rather than oodles of small, ordinary ones.
My achilles heel will definitely be my inability to get to enemies from a distance.
Well that's easy: pick up an Orc hornbow! (+1/Adaptable will be how you buy it straight up. Chuck javelins before then. Without Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim weighing your attack bonus down, you'll be reasonably accurate. And take the most underrated combat feat in the game: Quick Draw, for rapidly cycling a variety of weapons. Tie them to your waist, not wrist, with regular cord, not "weapon cords", which are stupid.)