So fists are a simple weapon, which means almost every class gets proficiency. They're also agile and finesseable, which means the rogue can add Dex to damage for them, as well as sneak attack.
And this means that at level 1 at least, most rogues will outdamage most monks in fisticuffs. It seems like most monks are leaning towards Dexterity builds, so let's take two level 1 characters (one rogue, one monk) with the following stat array:
Str 10, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Monk is attacking at +5 for 1d6 (average damage 3.5). Rogue is attacking at +5 for 1d4+4 (average damage 6.5). The monk could use wolf or tiger stance to increase damage, but that still only puts them to 4.5 on average. Granted, flurry of blows lets the monk attack twice with one action, but it's still a pretty interesting look at low level disparity.
Also, the rogue can wield a bow without penalty while attacking. The monk has to spend a feat on shuriken. :(
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The rogue is doing nonlethal damage, though, for what that's worth.
It certainly makes a rogue a better 'go break his legs but don't kill him' guy, with seems correct.
MaxAstro wrote: The rogue is doing nonlethal damage, though, for what that's worth. No such thing as "nonlethal damage" any more, only "nonlethal attacks"; it only makes a difference when you bring someone to 0 HP---if the attack that did so was lethal, they're dying, otherwise they're not.
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After 6 1/2 tables GMed of Rose Street Revenge. Merisiel definitely has the highest damage potential of the GenCon 1st level pregens.
Best Shock Grasp crit I saw: ~25 hp
Best Amiri crit I saw: ~25 hp
Best Merisiel flanking crit I saw: 42 hp.
Say it with me "Sneak Attack dice are doubled on crits".
Mergy wrote: So fists are a simple weapon, which means almost every class gets proficiency. They're also agile and finesseable, which means the rogue can add Dex to damage for them, as well as sneak attack.
And this means that at level 1 at least, most rogues will outdamage most monks in fisticuffs. It seems like most monks are leaning towards Dexterity builds, so let's take two level 1 characters (one rogue, one monk) with the following stat array:
Str 10, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Monk is attacking at +5 for 1d6 (average damage 3.5). Rogue is attacking at +5 for 1d4+4 (average damage 6.5). The monk could use wolf or tiger stance to increase damage, but that still only puts them to 4.5 on average. Granted, flurry of blows lets the monk attack twice with one action, but it's still a pretty interesting look at low level disparity.
Also, the rogue can wield a bow without penalty while attacking. The monk has to spend a feat on shuriken. :(
That stat array is impossible though.
Monk will have at least 12 str and rogue will usually use his +2 for Cha (half his skills require deception)
You're also dismissing that monk may as well be in a stance, so we're already at d8+1 (already at 5.5 vs 6.5)
I'll take 2 attacks for 5.5 (flurry) vs 1 attack for 10 (sneak) any day. Especially since sneak is much more circumstantial.
Also,there's no reason not to raise strength as a monk, you get 4 ability boosts/5, both int and Cha are more or less worthless for you.
shroudb wrote: Mergy wrote: So fists are a simple weapon, which means almost every class gets proficiency. They're also agile and finesseable, which means the rogue can add Dex to damage for them, as well as sneak attack.
And this means that at level 1 at least, most rogues will outdamage most monks in fisticuffs. It seems like most monks are leaning towards Dexterity builds, so let's take two level 1 characters (one rogue, one monk) with the following stat array:
Str 10, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Monk is attacking at +5 for 1d6 (average damage 3.5). Rogue is attacking at +5 for 1d4+4 (average damage 6.5). The monk could use wolf or tiger stance to increase damage, but that still only puts them to 4.5 on average. Granted, flurry of blows lets the monk attack twice with one action, but it's still a pretty interesting look at low level disparity.
Also, the rogue can wield a bow without penalty while attacking. The monk has to spend a feat on shuriken. :(
That stat array is impossible though.
Monk will have at least 12 str Monks, like Fighters, can choose between str and dex as their key ability.
shroudb wrote: Mergy wrote: So fists are a simple weapon, which means almost every class gets proficiency. They're also agile and finesseable, which means the rogue can add Dex to damage for them, as well as sneak attack.
And this means that at level 1 at least, most rogues will outdamage most monks in fisticuffs. It seems like most monks are leaning towards Dexterity builds, so let's take two level 1 characters (one rogue, one monk) with the following stat array:
Str 10, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Monk is attacking at +5 for 1d6 (average damage 3.5). Rogue is attacking at +5 for 1d4+4 (average damage 6.5). The monk could use wolf or tiger stance to increase damage, but that still only puts them to 4.5 on average. Granted, flurry of blows lets the monk attack twice with one action, but it's still a pretty interesting look at low level disparity.
Also, the rogue can wield a bow without penalty while attacking. The monk has to spend a feat on shuriken. :(
That stat array is impossible though.
Monk will have at least 12 str and rogue will usually use his +2 for Cha (half his skills require deception)
You're also dismissing that monk may as well be in a stance, so we're already at d8+1 (already at 5.5 vs 6.5)
I'll take 2 attacks for 5.5 (flurry) vs 1 attack for 10 (sneak) any day. Especially since sneak is much more circumstantial.
Also,there's no reason not to raise strength as a monk, you get 4 ability boosts/5, both int and Cha are more or less worthless for you. It's only impossible because it's technically less powerful than it should be for a human. +1 mod to dex and +1 mod to con from ancestry, +1 mod to dex and wis from background, +1 mod to dex, con, wis, cha for free boost and +1 mod to dex from Rogue/Monk.
Dwarf would net you -1 cha mod for +1 con mod or wis mod, Elf would net you -1 con for +1 int mod, gnome would be -1 str mod for +1 cha mod, goblin is -1 wis mod for +1 cha mod, halfling -1 str for +1 wis.
You're right, I screwed up on the stats. Monk can take an extra +1 to damage for 12 strength, and rogue can take +1 to charisma skills with 12 charisma.
Xenocrat wrote: shroudb wrote: Mergy wrote: So fists are a simple weapon, which means almost every class gets proficiency. They're also agile and finesseable, which means the rogue can add Dex to damage for them, as well as sneak attack.
And this means that at level 1 at least, most rogues will outdamage most monks in fisticuffs. It seems like most monks are leaning towards Dexterity builds, so let's take two level 1 characters (one rogue, one monk) with the following stat array:
Str 10, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Monk is attacking at +5 for 1d6 (average damage 3.5). Rogue is attacking at +5 for 1d4+4 (average damage 6.5). The monk could use wolf or tiger stance to increase damage, but that still only puts them to 4.5 on average. Granted, flurry of blows lets the monk attack twice with one action, but it's still a pretty interesting look at low level disparity.
Also, the rogue can wield a bow without penalty while attacking. The monk has to spend a feat on shuriken. :(
That stat array is impossible though.
Monk will have at least 12 str Monks, like Fighters, can choose between str and dex as their key ability. i'm not talking about the 18 dex.
i'm talking about the 2 14s alongside 3 10s
John Teixeira wrote:
It's only impossible because it's technically less powerful than it should be for a human. +1 mod to dex and +1 mod to con from ancestry, +1 mod to dex and wis from background, +1 mod to dex, con, wis, cha for free boost and +1 mod to dex from Rogue/Monk.
Dwarf would net you -1 cha mod for +1 con mod or wis mod, Elf would net you -1 con for +1 int mod, gnome would be -1 str mod for +1 cha mod, goblin is -1 wis mod for +1 cha mod, halfling -1 str for +1 wis. no it's impossible because to get a 18 you need every boost in it (class, background, free, ancestry)
this leaves you with a "free" boost from background
3 "free" boosts
and 2 more boosts (plus a malus) from race
if you're a dwarf as an example, you'll have a boost on wis and con.
you add the 2 "free" boosts and that brings them to 14.
you still have 1 more "free" boost and 1 more from background.
You can easily start with 3 14s and a 18 if you get a malus (Cha in the case of dwarves)
bringing the dwarf monk damage up to 1d8+2 as an example
But in OP's example, since he went human, he should have a tleast one more +2 (+2 to strength for monk, +2 cha for rogue)
to put it simpler, if you don't want a 16, you can have a 18/14/14/14/10/8 or a 18/14/14/12/10/10
OP had it as 18/14/14/10/10/10
GinoA wrote: After 6 1/2 tables GMed of Rose Street Revenge. Merisiel definitely has the highest damage potential of the GenCon 1st level pregens.
Best Shock Grasp crit I saw: ~25 hp
Best Amiri crit I saw: ~25 hp
Best Merisiel flanking crit I saw: 42 hp.
Say it with me "Sneak Attack dice are doubled on crits".
Merisiel's crit is a powerhouse, but Amiri's crit is 4d12+20, which is right up there too (25 seems very unlucky).
And rogues are definitely solid with a punch too; Mergy's numbers didn't even include sneak attack yet.
shroudb wrote: But in OP's example, since he went human, he should have a tleast one more +2 (+2 to strength for monk, +2 cha for rogue)
to put it simpler, if you don't want a 16, you can have a 18/14/14/14/10/8 or a 18/14/14/12/10/10
OP had it as 18/14/14/10/10/10
Okay, if I apologize to you for forgetting to include a 12 in my stat generation for this new stat generation system, will you drop it?
I am really sorry.
Mergy wrote: shroudb wrote: But in OP's example, since he went human, he should have a tleast one more +2 (+2 to strength for monk, +2 cha for rogue)
to put it simpler, if you don't want a 16, you can have a 18/14/14/14/10/8 or a 18/14/14/12/10/10
OP had it as 18/14/14/10/10/10
Okay, if I apologize to you for forgetting to include a 12 in my stat generation for this new stat generation system, will you drop it?
I am really sorry. i was writing my reply to the other people without seing that you adressed it already.
it is me that I'm sorry.
edit: actually, looking at timestamps, probably wrote it WHILE you were writing yours ^^
I don't have a vendetta going "omg!!!11!!! what R U writing it's THAT class that's best!"
(plus, I like rogues more than monks either way, so there's that :P)
Mark Seifter wrote: Merisiel's crit is a powerhouse, but Amiri's crit is 4d12+20, which is right up there too (25 seems very unlucky). Her sword isn't magical at first level. 2d12+16. But I think the player wasn't raging that particular attack, so 2d12+8.
GinoA wrote: Mark Seifter wrote: Merisiel's crit is a powerhouse, but Amiri's crit is 4d12+20, which is right up there too (25 seems very unlucky). Her sword isn't magical at first level. 2d12+16. But I think the player wasn't raging that particular attack, so 2d12+8. Oh man, that was at 1st level? So Merisiel yahtzeed max damage on 4d6+1d10+8 to get 42. Nice!
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shroudb wrote: Mergy wrote: shroudb wrote: But in OP's example, since he went human, he should have a tleast one more +2 (+2 to strength for monk, +2 cha for rogue)
to put it simpler, if you don't want a 16, you can have a 18/14/14/14/10/8 or a 18/14/14/12/10/10
OP had it as 18/14/14/10/10/10
Okay, if I apologize to you for forgetting to include a 12 in my stat generation for this new stat generation system, will you drop it?
I am really sorry. i was writing my reply to the other people without seing that you adressed it already.
it is me that I'm sorry.
edit: actually, looking at timestamps, probably wrote it WHILE you were writing yours ^^
I don't have a vendetta going "omg!!!11!!! what R U writing it's THAT class that's best!"
(plus, I like rogues more than monks either way, so there's that :P) No, I'm sorry too. My reply was pretty spiteful. You are also correct that adding +1 to damage for the monk and giving them a 1d8 style bridges this gap. When I started writing the OP I was originally going to just comment that unarmed is actually a decent style for the rogue; it took off a bit from that into a comparison to the monk.
For what it's worth, I think the monk is probably a bit underpowered, especially with it needing to spend a feat to get any ranged option at all.
shroudb wrote: no it's impossible because to get a 18 you need every boost in it (class, background, free, ancestry)
this leaves you with a "free" boost from background
3 "free" boosts
and 2 more boosts (plus a malus) from race
if you're a dwarf as an example, you'll have a boost on wis and con.
you add the 2 "free" boosts and that brings them to 14.
you still have 1 more "free" boost and 1 more from background.
You can easily start with 3 14s and a 18 if you get a malus (Cha in the case of dwarves)
bringing the dwarf monk damage up to 1d8+2 as an example
But in OP's example, since he went human, he should have a tleast one more +2 (+2 to strength for monk, +2 cha for rogue)
to put it simpler, if you don't want a 16, you can have a 18/14/14/14/10/8 or a 18/14/14/12/10/10
OP had it as 18/14/14/10/10/10
You essentially just repeated what I wrote in your own words. I don't know why you said you disagreed with me?
John Teixeira wrote:
You essentially just repeated what I wrote in your own words. I don't know why you said you disagreed with me?
TBF, your first sentence (the one about humans) confused me what you were talking about, I thought you meant that it's fine for humans and only changes for the other races, which was not, it was different for both humans and other races
but let's not derail the thread any more.
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