Prowler At World's End Beast Shape Clarification

[Prof. Löwenzahn]

Hello folks,

I was Looking into the Prowler At World's End Bloodrager archetype and got confused about to what extend I can use the Level 11 ability to apply Beast Shape IV to my rage?

The ability states I can only take the form of a great cat of the kind I channeled via the Spirit ability.

If I channeled the lion, does that mean I am stuck with the CR3 Lion creature? What about the Dire Lion, Cave Lion or the Mythical Lion, as they appear in the Bestiary? I was searching for other lion creatures in order to maximize the damage dice and found the Blood Lion. It qualifies for Beast Shape IV, however it is a magical beast, so I found it rather unlikely to fit into the ability.

On closer inspection I went through all the great Cat animals and found that all abilities they grant are covered with Beast Shape III, so I wondered why it said Beast Shape IV, when in fact you would not get any advantage out of it. Now I'm kind of hoping that the Blood Lion is legitimate.

Any thoughts?

[Claxon]

The ability basically says you apply Beast Shape IV spell to yourself.

Depending on the size of the cat you channel, you will either be a medium or large size cat I believe. Beast Shape IV tells what modifications you would make to yourself, and I don't believe you get the regular rage bonuses to strength and con either. You simply take the stat changes as indicated by the beast shape line of spells.

Edit: Rereading it you would still get the bonus to strength and con from mighty and greater rage, but choosing lion or tiger are the only good options since medium cats are screwed over by beast shape IV effects.

[Prof. Löwenzahn]

Ok, so in your opinion the magical Beast is off the table.

But there is still a difference between a regular Lion (1d6 bite, 1d4 claws) and a Cave Lion (1d8 bite, 1d8 claws). Both are Great Cats and both are lions, so I'd be stupid to take the normal Lion over a more powerful variant, right?

My question though was more directed towards why it says Beast Shape IV? The Large Animal stat adjustments (which I seem to be stuck with) as well as grab and pounce are from Beast Shape II, while rake is from Beast Shape III. It is a question from a design point of view? Why write BS IV when all you effectively get is BS III?

[Dave Justus]

Your channeled spirit is a lion. Not a cave lion or a dire lion or anything else, it is based on the specific bestiary entry "lion (cat, great)" and not any others.

As to why they chose BSIV instead of BSIII it is probably just because level 11 when you get that ability is also when 6th level spells come online for full casters.

Mechanically, the only difference for this character is the few effects that take into account the spell level such as dispel magic.

[Claxon]

Yeah, nothing in particular was probably meant by saying Beast Shape IV instead or III, except that when they looked at spell lists they thought it was appropriate to replicate, except they didn't understand that the stat bonuses you get depend on the size of the animal you replicate (which they've hard coded with your spirit) and so you don't gain any significant benefit by having Beast Shape IV instead of III.

And Dave is right on the Cave Lion part. You don't get to choose the Cave Lion, you only get the specific bestiary entry of your spirit animal such as Lion (cat, great) as mentioned. Cave Lion or Dire Tiger are not options.

[Prof. Löwenzahn]

Okay, you seem to be right with that. Looks like I tried to push the archetype further than possible.

So in the end, tiger is way better damagewise (they get 2d6 bite and 1d8 claw) and Spirit-wise as well. No chance for the Lion. :/

[Claxon]

Correct.

Overall it's an OK archetype because of the restrictions on that ability, though the spirit bonuses are good so it's not terrible.

Weirdly, you have trouble buffing yourself with your Bloodrager spells because the Champion spirit says you must resist all arcane spell casting.

But if you really just wanted to be good a shape shifting as a bloodrager, a good way to do it is the Rageshaper archetype or use the Arcane Bloodline which grants you full Beast Shape IV when entering Bloodrage (at level 16).