This is my first post after a long time of lurking, so apologies in advance.
I’m about to play in a half combat, half social custom campaign set in Wuxia-Fantasy China, so the restrictions on classes and races are: “Make it Ancient Chinese flavoured, and be a human. All magic casting has somatic components that involve Kung-fu techniques, and everyone starts at level 3 with 3000 gold and 20-point buy.”
Naturally, the first thing that went through my head was, “Heavenly Dragon Fist,” so something like dragon style and something related to either the worship of the heavenly dragons (alignment and specific deity worship is a jumbled, waived away mess, apparently...)
So, I’m wanting to build a Strength and Charisma focused, punch-enemies martial artist (not necessarily the monk archetype) who has a dragon theme about him and can talk his way through a multitude of situations, both through intimidation and diplomacy. I was thinking about feats like Intimidating Prowess and Noble Scion of War (Noble Scion fits the character’s backstory, War is just a helpful bonus) would be good to start out with.
As for classes, maybe a few levels of Paladin for Divine Grace, maybe a Scaled fist monk for AC and unarmed damage, or even a Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer for the Imperial Dragon/intimidation theme (with magical knack helping with CL, of course,) maybe even a level of all three, since it fits thematically. As a human, I’d take the Draconic Heritage variant trait, just to be even more dragon-themed.
Thing is, is that I’m utterly tangled up with all the options out there, be it level dips, spells or no spells (we have no full casters, so spell casting backup would be nice, at the least) etc. It’s a bad case of Choice Paralysis, so I’d like for some advice from people with more experience in pathfinder than me about a build that would work out.
As for other players in the campaign, there’s a “Throw stuff at enemies” Magus, a “stab everyone” Ninja, and two different types of monk, one of whom is a martial artist.
Tl;dr: Advice for making a Charismatic, Kung-fu Dragon-themed character requested, sorry for this jumbled mess of a first post.
What about a Paladin with a monk dip? One or two levels of monk, with an Oath of Vengeance Paladin.
Something about smite and flurry of blows seems very satisfying...
There is also brawler. Two levels gives a bonus feat, and Brawler's flurry counts as two weapon fighting for feat prerequisites. This lets you get more attacks then a monk dip.
What about a Paladin with a monk dip? One or two levels of monk, with an Oath of Vengeance Paladin.
Something about smite and flurry of blows seems very satisfying...
There is also brawler. Two levels gives a bonus feat, and Brawler's flurry counts as two weapon fighting for feat prerequisites. This lets you get more attacks then a monk dip.
Iroran Paladin seems like it fits rather well with the campaign world, especially since its Ki-sense ability would be great in a monk-filled world, but is it worth giving up Smite Evil for Personal Trial?
Also, I was thinking of the monk dip less for its flurry of blows than for the Scaled Fist’s, “Make everything Wisdom-based for a monk into Charisma-based,” ability, Draconic Might, since adding charisma to AC on a low Dexterity, high charisma, unarmored character feels prudent. Dragon-Style and Intimidating Prowess added to the bonus feat list doesn’t hurt, either, but since we’re starting at level 3 I can grab both feats anyway.
As for Brawler, I haven’t looked into how it actually plays, much, is it a good replacement for monk?
For single classing I prefer monks, but brawlers are nicer for one or two levels, and it's easier to get more attacks just from dipping.
Oh, and you can wear light armor which is enchanted easier.
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I have a monk Dragon disciple in PFS that hits like a truck with flurry of blows.
1 level sorcerer with the draconic bloodline, 4 levels Unchained Monk with the Scaled Fist archetype, then go Dragon Disciple prestige class for the rest. With GM permission you could use the Imperial Dragon lore from Legacy of Dragons (which is more East Asia based) and convert the dragon form into them (RAW, Dragon Disciple does not have access to transform into exotic or esoteric dragons, just ones from the CRB, but that is only because dragon disciple hasn't been updated ever.)
Let's see, I started out with 18 str and 14 cha, I think? He's level 10 now wth 5 levels of DD and has a 28 str now that he has a +4 Str belt. His feats are Dragon Style, Dragon Ferocity, Power Attack and a couple of Extra Ki feats, typically to use for extra attacks in a flurry. Otherwise they have been pretty open. Last I checked he was doing 1d10+24 on his first hit and 1d10+18 on the next 4.
I have a monk Dragon disciple in PFS that hits like a truck with flurry of blows.
1 level sorcerer with the draconic bloodline, 4 levels Unchained Monk with the Scaled Fist archetype, then go Dragon Disciple prestige class for the rest. With GM permission you could use the Imperial Dragon lore from Legacy of Dragons (which is more East Asia based) and convert the dragon form into them (RAW, Dragon Disciple does not have access to transform into exotic or esoteric dragons, just ones from the CRB, but that is only because dragon disciple hasn't been updated ever.)
Let's see, I started out with 18 str and 14 cha, I think? He's level 10 now wth 5 levels of DD and has a 28 str now that he has a +4 Str belt. His feats are Dragon Style, Dragon Ferocity, Power Attack and a couple of Extra Ki feats, typically to use for extra attacks in a flurry. Otherwise they have been pretty open. Last I checked he was doing 1d10+24 on his first hit and 1d10+18 on the next 4.
Would it be worth it for a sorcerer/UM/DD to take five levels of unchained monk, to get Flying Kick or Shattering Punch, or even six to grab another Bonus Feat and Qingong Barkskin (which I’ve been told is a must-have, no exceptions)?
Additionally, for a punching build using a progression like that (with FCT, of course, for claws,) what’s a good way to up the damage done?
You have to show your Gm the "Dragon Tiger Ox" series for wu xia campaigns.
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My monk actuslly doesnt bother with natural weapons, he just uses unarmed strikes. They're more permanent than the limited use of claws and bite and, after doing the math, ultimately deals more damage. It also keeps your feats fairly open.
As for how many levels of monk you want, it really depends on how many levels of DD you want early on. As I play PFS, my normal retirement level is 12, so I wanted to maximize as many DD levels as possible. You on the other hand might just want to snag flying kick or another style strike, and that's not a bad idea. I wouldn't do a 6th level of monk, personally, until I got the +4 are from DD.
As for damage, by level 9 you're strength is that of a permanently raging barbarian. You're dealing 2x your strength mod on your first hit and 1.5x damage on all subsequent hits. With haste and spending ki points, you're at 5 attacks per round. That's better than a standard barbarian at that level.
Have you considered a fire Kineticist or Kinetic Knight? I'll concede right off the bat that its not strictly speaking "punchy" but I figure the kinetic blade stuff can be refluffed as a fire punch easy.
I have a monk Dragon disciple in PFS that hits like a truck with flurry of blows.
1 level sorcerer with the draconic bloodline, 4 levels Unchained Monk with the Scaled Fist archetype, then go Dragon Disciple prestige class for the rest. With GM permission you could use the Imperial Dragon lore from Legacy of Dragons (which is more East Asia based) and convert the dragon form into them (RAW, Dragon Disciple does not have access to transform into exotic or esoteric dragons, just ones from the CRB, but that is only because dragon disciple hasn't been updated ever.)
Let's see, I started out with 18 str and 14 cha, I think? He's level 10 now wth 5 levels of DD and has a 28 str now that he has a +4 Str belt. His feats are Dragon Style, Dragon Ferocity, Power Attack and a couple of Extra Ki feats, typically to use for extra attacks in a flurry. Otherwise they have been pretty open. Last I checked he was doing 1d10+24 on his first hit and 1d10+18 on the next 4.Would it be worth it for a sorcerer/UM/DD to take five levels of unchained monk, to get Flying Kick or Shattering Punch, or even six to grab another Bonus Feat and Qingong Barkskin (which I’ve been told is a must-have, no exceptions)?
Additionally, for a punching build using a progression like that (with FCT, of course, for claws,) what’s a good way to up the damage done?
Straight Unchained Monk, every single day of the week.
My personal advice is for you to stick with UnMonk Scaled Disciple, nab Dodge and then go down Dragon Style up to Dragon Ferocity.
Use your plethora of free feats to take up Peerless Courtier and Cunning. This will allow you to have a large set of maxed skills for social encounters.
Sometimes the simplest answer is the best!
Straight Unchained Monk, every single day of the week.My personal advice is for you to stick with UnMonk Scaled Disciple, nab Dodge and then go down Dragon Style up to Dragon Ferocity.
Use your plethora of free feats to take up Peerless Courtier and Cunning. This will allow you to have a large set of maxed skills for social encounters.
Sometimes the simplest answer is the best!
Peerless and Cunning both look like must-haves, would it be worth it to dump int and/or wis, keep der at 10, and just put the points in STR, CHA, and CON, dipping two levels of Paladin for Divine Grace so reflex and will saves aren’t terrible or going with Steadfast Personality/Irrepressible?
What stats are dump-able for a scaled fist like that?
Straight Unchained Monk, every single day of the week.My personal advice is for you to stick with UnMonk Scaled Disciple, nab Dodge and then go down Dragon Style up to Dragon Ferocity.
Use your plethora of free feats to take up Peerless Courtier and Cunning. This will allow you to have a large set of maxed skills for social encounters.
Sometimes the simplest answer is the best!
Peerless and Cunning both look like must-haves, would it be worth it to dump int and/or wis, keep der at 10, and just put the points in STR, CHA, and CON, dipping two levels of Paladin for Divine Grace so reflex and will saves aren’t terrible or going with Steadfast Personality/Irrepressible?
What stats are dump-able for a scaled fist like that?
1. Never dip out of UnMonk.
2. Reflex will be amazing even with 12 DEX, it's a strong save baseline.
3. Will saves will need some work – Steadfast Personality is pretty great at it, but do note that it'll only be amazing if you have like 18 CHA – otherwise, Iron Will is also a good choice.
4. Dumping WIS is inadvisable if you are playing the cunning noble type – Sense Motive is still an important tool. That being said, if you are playing the haughty noble type, dumping WIS might be narratively fun, even if it creates a weakness for you in combat.
5. Dumping INT is viable and probably the best option. That being said, if you are playing 20PB, you never need to dump beyond 8 INT.
So, I've decided to drop Paladin levels entirely and go with Unchained Monk, but I haven't decided whether or not they'll be a Dragon Disciple or not, (it fits so much, thematically,) and I'm still just looking at how the first three levels should look. Dragon Style is a must-have, and Cunning/Peerless Courtier look great to have as well, but that doesn't leave much room for combat-related feats, does it?
Bah, forget Wuxia. Go full Xianxia as a kineticist and then murder hobo everything with fireball fists while robbing arrogant young master.
Ok, now that I got that joke out of the way: Iroran Paladin is a fine archetype, but you have to temper your expectations.
Yes. It does less damage than a smite. However, it is far more flexible since it is not alignment based, and it can then use ki to ignore ANYTHING'S DR. This means that your GM can't throw a neutral golem at you any more as a 'turn off the paladin' option. So this is a rather lateral move due to the trade offs.
Past the loss of smite, you actually keep a lot of paladin goodies- you are still a fantastic tank character. You trade in heavy armor for dex+cha too AC (pretty good trade really- you can have good AC with minimal investment in either stat, and you can still use light armor). You also retain lay on hands, cha to AC, and spells.
the only real problem with the archetype is that it has little unarmed strike support- it gives you nothing to support the TWF needed for good unarmed builds. As such, it isn't great as an unarmed class... however, Wuxia isn't just about simple punches.
You could go for a weapon user- a nice sword, or maybe a spear (reach is a really good option for iroran paladins- you have unarmed strikes to cover close range). Please reference the Jet Li movie "Hero" if you need visual inspiration/just want to watch a good wuxia movie.
So I’ve taken Noble Scion, and Steadfast Personality, are there any other good “Charisma-focused” feats to look out for that won’t feel like a waste? I’ve gone over the Getting X to Y guide, is there anything besides those few listed?
Have you considered the Sacred Fist Warpriest? It's a single class version of the Monk/Paladin build you were debating. You'd be providing much needed healing and divine magic. Fervor and Blessed Fortitude let you tank like a paladin.
There are two major downsides to this option: Strange Flurry of Blows and not Charisma based. The Sacred Fist's Flurry of blows does not treat his Flurry BAB as equal to his level. I'd ask your GM if he'd be willing to allow your flurry to function as the standard Monk's flurry.
As far being Wisdom based rather than Charisma focussed, I feel this can be worked around. Pick up the Persuasive feat for a +2 to Diplomacy and Intimidate.
Have you considered the Sacred Fist Warpriest? It's a single class version of the Monk/Paladin build you were debating. You'd be providing much needed healing and divine magic. Fervor and Blessed Fortitude let you tank like a paladin.
There are two major downsides to this option: Strange Flurry of Blows and not Charisma based. The Sacred Fist's Flurry of blows does not treat his Flurry BAB as equal to his level. I'd ask your GM if he'd be willing to allow your flurry to function as the standard Monk's flurry.
As far being Wisdom based rather than Charisma focussed, I feel this can be worked around. Pick up the Persuasive feat for a +2 to Diplomacy and Intimidate.
As far as Wisdom goes, I’m intentionally tanking it to 7 to replicate a sort of “Haughty Noble” figure who got exiled/banished from his family’s house and sent to a monastery for the Way Of The Heavenly Dragon because he angered the family Head, and never really learned from that mistake. He’s like the Rival character in an average Fantasy Kung Fu manga.
Side note: I’ve learned resurrection and the like isn’t in the campaign world either, so plans to go get Ultimate Mercy are out the window; survival options just became a much, much higher priority. Would grabbing a second level of Paladin for Divine Grace and Lay on Hands be worth delaying the U-Monk or sorcerer dip, and if so which one?