Rules Question: Human Ancestry, Natural Ambition and Multiclassing


Ancestries & Backgrounds


Can the bonus class feat from Natural Ambition be used to purchase a multiclass feat in place of a class feat provided the player meets the prerequisites?

Playtest Rulebook, p. 37 wrote:

NATURAL AMBITION

You were raised to be ambitious and always reach for the stars, causing you to progress quickly in your chosen field. You gain a 1st-level class feat for your class.
Playtest Rulebook, p. 279 wrote:
Applying an archetype requires you to spend your class feats on archetype feats instead of class feats. Start by finding the archetype that best fits your character concept, and select the archetype’s dedication feat using one of your class feat choices. Once you have the dedication feat, you can select any feat from that archetype in place of a class feat as long as you meet its prerequisites.

Example: Gish the Human Wizard decides to multiclass into Fighter. They take Fighter Dedication as their 2nd level class feat, Basic Maneuver as their 4th level class feat, and select Natural Ambition as their 5th level Ancestry Feat, gaining a 1st level class feat. Can Gish use this class feat to purchase Fighter Resiliency?


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JDLPF wrote:
Can Gish use this class feat to purchase Fighter Resiliency?

Fighter Resiliency is a 4th Level Feat, so even if it counts as Class feat for you by virtue of the Dedication Feat, Natural Ambition wouldn't let you take it.


You cannot take class feat from your second class. You must take the appropriate Archetype feat (witch are all level 2 or above) that grant a class feat from your secondary class. So, natural ambition doesn't help.


vagabond_666 wrote:
Fighter Resiliency is a 4th Level Feat, so even if it counts as Class feat for you by virtue of the Dedication Feat, Natural Ambition wouldn't let you take it.

However, per p. 279 "you can select any feat from that archetype in place of a class feat as long as you meet its prerequisites." There's no restriction that the class feat being replaced must be of an equivalent level.

Dekalinder wrote:
You cannot take class feat from your second class. You must take the appropriate Archetype feat (witch are all level 2 or above) that grant a class feat from your secondary class. So, natural ambition doesn't help.

Gish isn't taking a class feat from his second class. He's taking a 1st level class feat from his Wizard class, then selecting an Archetype feat in place of that class feat per the rules on p. 279.


If this is true it's probably the first good news I heard in this playetest

Silver Crusade

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Natural Ambition wrote:
You were raised to be ambitious and always reach for the stars, causing you to progress quickly in your chosen field. You gain a 1st-level class feat for your class.

The bolded part seems to be rather specific.

It would not matter if Gish is a Wizard (fighter archetype) or a Fighter (wizard archetype) or a Fighter without an archetype. If he takes Natural Ambition on 5th level, he gains a 1st-level class feat.

The only thing the dedication feat from the archetype changes is, that he has the option to take 1st-level fighter feats and 1st-level wizard feats.


I don't think this will let you take a feat for a class your multiclassing to according to the wording of the rules. Multiclassing doesn't make you a fighter in the game it just gets you proficiency in armor and weapons.

If it worked like that at 3rd level you could take Ancestral Paragon and get a level 1 feat allowing you to have 2 level 1 feats from 2 different classes and at level 4 still take your normal feat or grab a 2nd level feat from fighter with Basic Maneuver.

For example... If you could use Natural Ambition to do this you could have a level 4 Wizard multiclassing to Fighter with: a school specialization or a level 1 Wizard feat, Proficiency in weapons and armor, a level 1 Fighter feat (Point Blank Shot feels like the best choice for a Wizard to me), a level 4 feat in Wizard/level 1 or 2 feat from Fighter.


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Franz Lunzer wrote:
Natural Ambition wrote:
You were raised to be ambitious and always reach for the stars, causing you to progress quickly in your chosen field. You gain a 1st-level class feat for your class.

The bolded part seems to be rather specific.

It would not matter if Gish is a Wizard (fighter archetype) or a Fighter (wizard archetype) or a Fighter without an archetype. If he takes Natural Ambition on 5th level, he gains a 1st-level class feat.

The only thing the dedication feat from the archetype changes is, that he has the option to take 1st-level fighter feats and 1st-level wizard feats.

I think you're a bit unclear on the way multiclassing works based on your comment here.

A multiclassed character doesn't get to select class feats from their secondary class. They select from the list of multiclass archetype feats from p. 279 onwards. Some of these let you pick a 1st or 2nd level class feat, some add different features.

The rules on p. 279 state "once you have the dedication feat, you can select any feat from that archetype in place of a class feat as long as you meet its prerequisites."

Natural Ambition grants a 1st level class feat. You can select any feat from your archetype in place of a class feat. Ergo, you can select an archetype feat in place of a 1st level class feat unless you know of a rule that says this is an exception to the rules for archetypes?

Darres147 wrote:

I don't think this will let you take a feat for a class your multiclassing to according to the wording of the rules. Multiclassing doesn't make you a fighter in the game it just gets you proficiency in armor and weapons.

If it worked like that at 3rd level you could take Ancestral Paragon and get a level 1 feat allowing you to have 2 level 1 feats from 2 different classes and at level 4 still take your normal feat or grab a 2nd level feat from fighter with Basic Maneuver.

For example... If you could use Natural Ambition to do this you could have a level 4 Wizard multiclassing to Fighter with: a school specialization or a level 1 Wizard feat, Proficiency in weapons and armor, a level 1 Fighter feat (Point Blank Shot feels like the best choice for a Wizard to me), a level 4 feat in Wizard/level 1 or 2 feat from Fighter.

Can you clarify where you think there's rules stating this doesn't work? Because the rules for multiclassing let you take a multiclass archetype feat in replacement of a class feat, and Natural Ambition grants you a level 1 class feat. Seems pretty clear it does work according to the rules. And thus Ancestral Paragon becomes a great 3rd level general feat to get early progress into your multiclass.


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JDLPF wrote:

The rules on p. 279 state "once you have the dedication feat, you can select any feat from that archetype in place of a class feat as long as you meet its prerequisites."

I'm pretty sure that this means you can take one of the Archetype traited feats (in this chapter) as a class feat. So you could take a Fighter Archetype feat, not any Fighter feat.

Although I might be wrong but that is how I read it.

Grand Lodge

Apophenia wrote:
JDLPF wrote:

The rules on p. 279 state "once you have the dedication feat, you can select any feat from that archetype in place of a class feat as long as you meet its prerequisites."

I'm pretty sure that this means you can take one of the Archetype traited feats (in this chapter) as a class feat. So you could take a Fighter Archetype feat, not any Fighter feat.

Although I might be wrong but that is how I read it.

Look below the part you quoted. He says as much.
JDLPF wrote:
Natural Ambition grants a 1st level class feat. You can select any feat from your archetype in place of a class feat. Ergo, you can select an archetype feat in place of a 1st level class feat...


Jurassic Pratt wrote:
Apophenia wrote:
JDLPF wrote:

The rules on p. 279 state "once you have the dedication feat, you can select any feat from that archetype in place of a class feat as long as you meet its prerequisites."

I'm pretty sure that this means you can take one of the Archetype traited feats (in this chapter) as a class feat. So you could take a Fighter Archetype feat, not any Fighter feat.

Although I might be wrong but that is how I read it.

Look below the part you quoted. He says as much.
JDLPF wrote:
Natural Ambition grants a 1st level class feat. You can select any feat from your archetype in place of a class feat. Ergo, you can select an archetype feat in place of a 1st level class feat...

you can select any feat from that archetype in place of a class feat, I think this means to say you can take other archetype feats not just any feat from the class otherwise Advanced Maneuver is pointless and weaker then just selecting a feet you would meet the prereq of.

Grand Lodge

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No one has been arguing that you can take any feat best I can tell. Look at the OP's original post. It's talking about taking natural ambition and then using it to gain an archetype feat.


OK so at some point I thought we were arguing you can use natural ambition to take a class feat for your multiclass(which would be a no because your class doesn't change).

Now I'm thinking the argument is You take Natural Ambition to take a level 1 class feat which you then use to take an archetype feat using those rules. A VERY strict reading of the rules would say..yes but I'd say it's meant for a level 1 feet meaning it acts as if it was a level 1 feet you were retraining which wouldn't allow it to be used this way

We're supposed to break the game right? That's what a play test is for.


There are no level 1 archetype feats. The lowest level at which you can get an archetype is 2.

So, no, you can’t use Natural Ambitiin to get any archetype feats, multiclass feats included.


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Ventnor wrote:

There are no level 1 archetype feats. The lowest level at which you can get an archetype is 2.

So, no, you can’t use Natural Ambitiin to get any archetype feats, multiclass feats included.

Why not? I appreciate your comment, but could I ask you to include details as to which rule you're using in the Playtest Rulebook to back up this statement?

My own reading is that it is legal, precisely because p. 279 allows any class feat to be used for any archetype feat, without any wording restricting them by level. The only restriction is prerequisites, which are all met at 5th level in the example.


The argument is that the feat you get from Natural ambition is not just a normal feat. It is restricted in what it's supposed to give, namely a lvl 1 feat. So that restriction has to be applied to the archetype feat as well. And there are no lvl 1 archetype feats. That is obviously how it is intended. Rules as written you might be right. This should get some clarification in an upcoming errata.

Liberty's Edge

Both positions make sense, though I’m inclined to lean toward the reading that Natural Ambition does allow an archetype feat so long as the prerequisites are met.

The specific trumps the general, so I guess it comes down to which of Natural Ambition or the dedication feat is more specific.

Silver Crusade

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Luke Styer wrote:

Both positions make sense, though I’m inclined to lean toward the reading that Natural Ambition does allow an archetype feat so long as the prerequisites are met.

The specific trumps the general, so I guess it comes down to which of Natural Ambition or the dedication feat is more specific.

That would be rather easy to determine: The rules for dedication feats are pretty general. The rules in the text of Natural Ambition ("a 1st level class feat") sound rather specific.

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I would say that no, it doesn't let you take an archetype feat, because Natural Ambition specifically says you can select a first-level class feat. An archetype feat is decidedly not a first-level class feat, so therefore, the specific rule of Natural Ambition supersedes the general rule of taking archetype feats in place of class feats.

Grand Lodge

You can take a first level class feat with any of your higher level class feats, so I don't see how the fact that natural ambition granting you a 1st level class feat is any different in regards to whether it could be swapped out.


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Jurassic Pratt wrote:
You can take a first level class feat with any of your higher level class feats, so I don't see how the fact that natural ambition granting you a 1st level class feat is any different in regards to whether it could be swapped out.

Because natural ambition is supposed to be restricted to lvl 1 feats and by using that for an archetype feat would let you in theory take a lvl 18 feat which is just ridiculous.


Hopefully, archetype feats will get down shifted in the final version so dedications are 1st level, 4th level archetype feats become 2nd level feats, and so on.

But in the meantime, no.

Each feat has a level associated with it. That level is bound to the feat and part of its prerequisites. Since as it stands there are no 1st level archetype feats of any kind, you cannot use Ambition to get an archetype feat.

What it does allow you to do is pick up another actual class feat you wanted, so you can save your actual class feat slot for the archetype instead of spending it on the extra 1st level feat you wanted.


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Fuzzypaws wrote:

Hopefully, archetype feats will get down shifted in the final version so dedications are 1st level, 4th level archetype feats become 2nd level feats, and so on.

But in the meantime, no.

Each feat has a level associated with it. That level is bound to the feat and part of its prerequisites. Since as it stands there are no 1st level archetype feats of any kind, you cannot use Ambition to get an archetype feat.

What it does allow you to do is pick up another actual class feat you wanted, so you can save your actual class feat slot for the archetype instead of spending it on the extra 1st level feat you wanted.

You're committing a logic fallacy in your interpretation.

Observation: Class Feats have level prerequisites.
Observation: Archetype Feats have level prerequisites.
Conclusion: Archetype Feat level must match the Class Feat level.

This is wrong. The level prerequisites are the minimum character level you must be to take that Feat.

You can select a 1st level Class Feat at 5th level because you meet the prerequisites of being at least 1st level.

You can select a 4th level Archetype Feat at 5th level because you meet the prerequisites of being at least 4th level.

You can select any Archetype Feat in place of a Class Feat if you meet the prerequisites.

Thus you can select a 4th level Archetype Feat in place of a 1st level Class Feat at 5th level.


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JDLPF wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:

Hopefully, archetype feats will get down shifted in the final version so dedications are 1st level, 4th level archetype feats become 2nd level feats, and so on.

But in the meantime, no.

Each feat has a level associated with it. That level is bound to the feat and part of its prerequisites. Since as it stands there are no 1st level archetype feats of any kind, you cannot use Ambition to get an archetype feat.

What it does allow you to do is pick up another actual class feat you wanted, so you can save your actual class feat slot for the archetype instead of spending it on the extra 1st level feat you wanted.

You're committing a logic fallacy in your interpretation.

Observation: Class Feats have level prerequisites.
Observation: Archetype Feats have level prerequisites.
Conclusion: Archetype Feat level must match the Class Feat level.

This is wrong. The level prerequisites are the minimum character level you must be to take that Feat.

You can select a 1st level Class Feat at 5th level because you meet the prerequisites of being at least 1st level.

You can select a 4th level Archetype Feat at 5th level because you meet the prerequisites of being at least 4th level.

You can select any Archetype Feat in place of a Class Feat if you meet the prerequisites.

Thus you can select a 4th level Archetype Feat in place of a 1st level Class Feat at 5th level.

Oh, you're that kind of abusive rules lawyer. I see. :p

The intent of the rules is very clear. For example, from the retraining rules:

Page 318 wrote:
For instance, you can’t exchange a feat for a different type of feat, a higher-level feat, or one that requires prerequisites you didn’t meet at the time you took the original feat.

You would not be able to retrain at 4th level to replace a 1st level class feat with a 4th level archetype feat.

By the same token, you cannot replace a specifically called-out 1st level bonus feat with a 4th level archetype feat, no matter whether they forgot to include the words "of the same or higher level" one time on page 279.


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Don't forget the part before the section you quoted:

Playtest Rulebook, p. 318 wrote:
In general when retraining, you can’t make choices that you couldn’t when first making your character

If it's legal when first making the choice for your character, it's legal for retraining at a later level. And selecting any archetype feat for any class feat is legal.

Silver Crusade

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JDLPF wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:

Hopefully, archetype feats will get down shifted in the final version so dedications are 1st level, 4th level archetype feats become 2nd level feats, and so on.

But in the meantime, no.

Each feat has a level associated with it. That level is bound to the feat and part of its prerequisites. Since as it stands there are no 1st level archetype feats of any kind, you cannot use Ambition to get an archetype feat.

What it does allow you to do is pick up another actual class feat you wanted, so you can save your actual class feat slot for the archetype instead of spending it on the extra 1st level feat you wanted.

You're committing a logic fallacy in your interpretation.

Observation: Class Feats have level prerequisites.
Observation: Archetype Feats have level prerequisites.
Conclusion: Archetype Feat level must match the Class Feat level.

This is wrong. The level prerequisites are the minimum character level you must be to take that Feat.

You can select a 1st level Class Feat at 5th level because you meet the prerequisites of being at least 1st level.

You can select a 4th level Archetype Feat at 5th level because you meet the prerequisites of being at least 4th level.

You can select any Archetype Feat in place of a Class Feat if you meet the prerequisites.

Thus you can select a 4th level Archetype Feat in place of a 1st level Class Feat at 5th level.

While this all sounds good, I'd say that Natural Ambition doesn't grant you a feat at your characters level, but a "1st level class feat", that is: a feat for your characters class you could take if you were 1st level.

Again I'd post the question I put up in another thread: for your Wizard 4+ with the fighter dedication feat, Conceal Spell and Fighter Resiliency are equivalent choices (as far as prerequisites are concerned), right? Meaning: you could choose to take one when you can choose to take the other, right?
With that in mind, do you think that at 5th level taking Natural Ambition, Conceal Spell would be a legal choice?


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If there was an archetype dedication that was level 1 you could use natural ambition to take it is just another class feat. But you do need to have the level prereq met to take the feat and at level 1 you lack the levels to acquire any of them with natural ambition. That is subject to change on the final edition or future rule books.

And if you take it at level 5 it still grants a 1st level class feat. It does not say it grants you a bonus class feat it specifies the level of that class feat you get for taking it.


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Natural Ambition doesn't say it grants you a class feat because it doesn't need to. Per p. 279, you can swap any class feat for an archetype feat. You still haven't shown a rule that conflicts with this, merely provided opinions, which while welcome, don't change the actual rules for multiclassing.


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Regardless of the exact RAW, I will go out on a limb and say that I believe they intended you to only be able to take class feats which were available at first level.

That said, I'm glad to learn of this feat and will be picking it up through Aopted Ancestry as a way to gain extra class feats, which I felt I was lacking as a barbarian. Every level when you get access to new feats there's always at least 1 you want to take. So if there is more than one at a level...well you can't get both. My thing was I wanted sudden charge and raging intimidation.


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Natural Ambition is an Ancestry Feat that specifically says you gain a 1st-level class feat for your class. The multi-class rules say you can spend your class feats on archetype feats. Since Natural Ambition is not a class feat, you cannot use it to spend on archetype feats.

I mean, besides the obvious interpretation that Natural Ambition allows you to choose FEAT [1].

But hey, feel free to allow it in your homebrewed games, I doubt your interpretation will be allowed in 'official' games.


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JDLPF wrote:
Natural Ambition doesn't say it grants you a class feat because it doesn't need to. Per p. 279, you can swap any class feat for an archetype feat. You still haven't shown a rule that conflicts with this, merely provided opinions, which while welcome, don't change the actual rules for multiclassing.

Actually, if you want to be super rules-lawyerly about it, then let's look at the text.

Natural Ambition wrote:
You were raised to be ambitious and always reach for the stars, causing you to progress quickly in your chosen field. You gain a 1st-level class feat for your class.

Natural Ambition only allows you to take a 1st-level class feat that is specifically for your class. Archetype feats are not class feats for your class. They are class feats for the specific archetype that they are attached to, which other classes can gain access to by spending class feats at a specified level.

But said archetype feats have the "archetype" tag, and not the "fighter" tag or the "sorcerer" tag. So archetype feats are, Rules As Written, not class feats.

Silver Crusade

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As has been stated here and in other threads, no. Natural Ambition gives you a 1st Level Class Feat. It does not give you a floating 1st Level Class Feat slot that you can trade for anything that a normal Feat slot can be spent on.

You get exactly what it says it gives you.


I find myself agreeing with those saying you get a level 1 class feat and not a level 1 class feat slot. I also would prefer the other interpretation to be the correct one. There's a ton of junk level 1 class feats that I'd prefer to swap out via archetypes or retraining. Particularly if you're looking for a weapon style not normally permitted to your class such as archery rangers or weapon casters.


Continuing on with the OP's line of thought, just to show how much it breaks the system. (Note that I disagree with it)

This means that by using the archetype feats that gain a class feat from another class, I can instead take another archetype feat, allowing me to get 2 (or more) archetype feats into my archetype and allowing me to take other archetypes faster since I complete my dedication requirements faster.


Remember this is a Playtest and my group is running the game as such, we are skipping multiple char levels between sessions and even swapping out Chars as time goes on. I think it’s RAW but wrong and needs to be re-written as it is ambiguous to some. As there is no “Specific” that means “General trumps”.

If we were playing this for real, playing each and every level over years from L1 all the way to L20 I would say we should use RAI, however this is a playtest we are ment to work with the rules RAW so as to find the broken bits as it were (don’t get me started on resonance).

RAW is that specific trumps general

Right or Wrong The wording is -

ARCHETYPES - “spend your class feats on archetype feats instead of class feats”
NATURAL AMBITION – “You gain a 1st-level class feat for your class.”

There is no mention of restriction under Archetype to the feat level just spending (using) a class feat, and Natural Ambition says you gain a class feat. Yes you are robbing Peter to pay Paul but that’s RAW.

Cheers

Silver Crusade

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Except it's not. You get exactly what it says you get. 1 Class Feat. You have to pick a Class Feat. You do not get a floating Feat Slot that you can trade out or to do anything you wish with. You get exactly what the Feat says.


Apophenia wrote:
JDLPF wrote:

The rules on p. 279 state "once you have the dedication feat, you can select any feat from that archetype in place of a class feat as long as you meet its prerequisites."

I'm pretty sure that this means you can take one of the Archetype traited feats (in this chapter) as a class feat. So you could take a Fighter Archetype feat, not any Fighter feat.

Although I might be wrong but that is how I read it.

you are indeed correct. that's exactly what it says. If your Class is Y, you have Archetype X(which allows you access to Feats from Class X), and take Natural Ambition, then:

-You aren't attempting to get Archetype X Feat Level 4 as a Class Y Feat Level 1.
-You are attempting to get Archetype X Feat Level 4 INSTEAD OF a Class Y Feat Level 1.

For proof, look no further than the Fighter Archetype Feat, Basic Maneuver, which explicitly states: "Gain a level 1 or level 2 fighter feat." The wording couldn't be more clear. Any Fighter Class Feat that is neither level 1 nor 2 just plainly doesn't qualify.


Further -

I have spoken to two other player who have been independently reading the Play test rule book and both have separately come to the same conclusion as I have. So again if people are coming to different conclusions than us, then the wording needs to be tightened up but as I and other see it honestly I think its possible under the current play test wording.

Of note however Natural Ambition (and for that matter any feat) can only be picked once unless it specifically states “You can select this feat more than once”. So the “General” is a feat that can be selected more than once spells it out in its description otherwise you can only pick it the once.

Cheers


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My rule of thumb: if you have to parse the language so much that you're forced into defending your preferred interpretation against a sizable opposition of opinion that you yourself solicited, then your preferred interpretation is probably not the intended one.

So don't do it.


It’s also true that the weakest and most restrictive option is the correct one 80% of the time.

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