paizo.com Recent Posts in Rules Question: Human Ancestry, Natural Ambition and Multiclassingpaizo.com Recent Posts in Rules Question: Human Ancestry, Natural Ambition and Multiclassing2018-08-10T03:29:23Z2018-08-10T03:29:23ZRe: Forums: Ancestries & Backgrounds: Rules Question: Human Ancestry, Natural Ambition and MulticlassingXenocrathttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vasx?Rules-Question-Human-Ancestry-Natural#402018-08-16T01:14:30Z2018-08-16T01:14:30Z<p>It’s also true that the weakest and most restrictive option is the correct one 80% of the time.</p>It’s also true that the weakest and most restrictive option is the correct one 80% of the time.Xenocrat2018-08-16T01:14:30ZRe: Forums: Ancestries & Backgrounds: Rules Question: Human Ancestry, Natural Ambition and MulticlassingCthulhudrewhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vasx?Rules-Question-Human-Ancestry-Natural#392018-08-16T01:13:46Z2018-08-16T01:11:20Z<p>My rule of thumb: if you have to parse the language so much that you're forced into defending your preferred interpretation against a sizable opposition of opinion that you yourself solicited, then your preferred interpretation is probably not the intended one.</p>
<p>So don't do it.</p>My rule of thumb: if you have to parse the language so much that you're forced into defending your preferred interpretation against a sizable opposition of opinion that you yourself solicited, then your preferred interpretation is probably not the intended one.
So don't do it.Cthulhudrew2018-08-16T01:11:20ZRe: Forums: Ancestries & Backgrounds: Rules Question: Human Ancestry, Natural Ambition and MulticlassingMiy2Centshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vasx?Rules-Question-Human-Ancestry-Natural#382018-08-16T00:49:35Z2018-08-16T00:49:35Z<p>Further - </p>
<p>I have spoken to two other player who have been independently reading the Play test rule book and both have separately come to the same conclusion as I have. So again if people are coming to different conclusions than us, then the wording needs to be tightened up but as I and other see it honestly I think its possible under the current play test wording.</p>
<p>Of note however Natural Ambition (and for that matter any feat) can only be picked once unless it specifically states “You can select this feat more than once”. So the “General” is a feat that can be selected more than once spells it out in its description otherwise you can only pick it the once.</p>
<p>Cheers</p>Further -
I have spoken to two other player who have been independently reading the Play test rule book and both have separately come to the same conclusion as I have. So again if people are coming to different conclusions than us, then the wording needs to be tightened up but as I and other see it honestly I think its possible under the current play test wording.
Of note however Natural Ambition (and for that matter any feat) can only be picked once unless it specifically states “You can...Miy2Cents2018-08-16T00:49:35ZRe: Forums: Ancestries & Backgrounds: Rules Question: Human Ancestry, Natural Ambition and MulticlassingVahnyuhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vasx?Rules-Question-Human-Ancestry-Natural#372018-08-15T13:05:16Z2018-08-15T12:56:03Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Apophenia wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">JDLPF wrote:</div><blockquote><p>The rules on p. 279 state "once you have the dedication feat, <b>you can select any feat from that archetype in place of a class feat</b> as long as you meet its prerequisites."
</p>
</blockquote><p>I'm pretty sure that this means you can take one of the Archetype traited feats (in this chapter) as a class feat. So you could take a Fighter Archetype feat, not any Fighter feat.
<p>Although I might be wrong but that is how I read it. </blockquote><p>you are indeed correct. that's exactly what it says. If your Class is Y, you have Archetype X(which allows you access to Feats from Class X), and take Natural Ambition, then:
</p>
-You aren't attempting to get Archetype X Feat Level 4 as a Class Y Feat Level 1.
<br />
-You are attempting to get Archetype X Feat Level 4 INSTEAD OF a Class Y Feat Level 1.</p>
<p>For proof, look no further than the Fighter Archetype Feat, Basic Maneuver, which explicitly states: "Gain a level 1 or level 2 fighter feat." The wording couldn't be more clear. <b>Any Fighter Class Feat that is neither level 1 nor 2 just plainly doesn't qualify.</b></p>Apophenia wrote:JDLPF wrote:The rules on p. 279 state "once you have the dedication feat, you can select any feat from that archetype in place of a class feat as long as you meet its prerequisites."
I'm pretty sure that this means you can take one of the Archetype traited feats (in this chapter) as a class feat. So you could take a Fighter Archetype feat, not any Fighter feat. Although I might be wrong but that is how I read it. you are indeed correct. that's exactly what it says. If your...Vahnyu2018-08-15T12:56:03ZRe: Forums: Ancestries & Backgrounds: Rules Question: Human Ancestry, Natural Ambition and MulticlassingRyskyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vasx?Rules-Question-Human-Ancestry-Natural#362018-08-15T13:00:21Z2018-08-15T09:41:09Z<p>Except it's not. You get exactly what it says you get. 1 Class Feat. You have to pick a Class Feat. You do not get a floating Feat Slot that you can trade out or to do anything you wish with. You get exactly what the Feat says.</p>Except it's not. You get exactly what it says you get. 1 Class Feat. You have to pick a Class Feat. You do not get a floating Feat Slot that you can trade out or to do anything you wish with. You get exactly what the Feat says.Rysky2018-08-15T09:41:09ZRe: Forums: Ancestries & Backgrounds: Rules Question: Human Ancestry, Natural Ambition and MulticlassingMiy2Centshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vasx?Rules-Question-Human-Ancestry-Natural#352018-08-15T08:44:33Z2018-08-15T08:44:33Z<p>Remember this is a Playtest and my group is running the game as such, we are skipping multiple char levels between sessions and even swapping out Chars as time goes on. I think it’s RAW but wrong and needs to be re-written as it is ambiguous to some. As there is no “Specific” that means “General trumps”.</p>
<p>If we were playing this for real, playing each and every level over years from L1 all the way to L20 I would say we should use RAI, however this is a playtest we are ment to work with the rules RAW so as to find the broken bits as it were (don’t get me started on resonance).</p>
<p>RAW is that specific trumps general</p>
<p>Right or Wrong The wording is - </p>
<p>ARCHETYPES - “spend your class feats on archetype feats instead of class feats”
<br />
NATURAL AMBITION – “You gain a 1st-level class feat for your class.”</p>
<p>There is no mention of restriction under Archetype to the feat level just spending (using) a class feat, and Natural Ambition says you gain a class feat. Yes you are robbing Peter to pay Paul but that’s RAW.</p>
<p>Cheers</p>Remember this is a Playtest and my group is running the game as such, we are skipping multiple char levels between sessions and even swapping out Chars as time goes on. I think it’s RAW but wrong and needs to be re-written as it is ambiguous to some. As there is no “Specific” that means “General trumps”.
If we were playing this for real, playing each and every level over years from L1 all the way to L20 I would say we should use RAI, however this is a playtest we are ment to work with the...Miy2Cents2018-08-15T08:44:33ZRe: Forums: Ancestries & Backgrounds: Rules Question: Human Ancestry, Natural Ambition and Multiclassingwilluwontuhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vasx?Rules-Question-Human-Ancestry-Natural#342018-08-12T17:24:12Z2018-08-12T17:23:03Z<p>Continuing on with the OP's line of thought, just to show how much it breaks the system. (Note that I disagree with it)</p>
<p>This means that by using the archetype feats that gain a class feat from another class, I can instead take another archetype feat, allowing me to get 2 (or more) archetype feats into my archetype and allowing me to take other archetypes faster since I complete my dedication requirements faster.</p>Continuing on with the OP's line of thought, just to show how much it breaks the system. (Note that I disagree with it)
This means that by using the archetype feats that gain a class feat from another class, I can instead take another archetype feat, allowing me to get 2 (or more) archetype feats into my archetype and allowing me to take other archetypes faster since I complete my dedication requirements faster.willuwontu2018-08-12T17:23:03ZRe: Forums: Ancestries & Backgrounds: Rules Question: Human Ancestry, Natural Ambition and MulticlassingErichADhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vasx?Rules-Question-Human-Ancestry-Natural#332018-08-11T17:29:23Z2018-08-11T17:29:23Z<p>I find myself agreeing with those saying you get a level 1 class feat and not a level 1 class feat slot. I also would prefer the other interpretation to be the correct one. There's a ton of junk level 1 class feats that I'd prefer to swap out via archetypes or retraining. Particularly if you're looking for a weapon style not normally permitted to your class such as archery rangers or weapon casters.</p>I find myself agreeing with those saying you get a level 1 class feat and not a level 1 class feat slot. I also would prefer the other interpretation to be the correct one. There's a ton of junk level 1 class feats that I'd prefer to swap out via archetypes or retraining. Particularly if you're looking for a weapon style not normally permitted to your class such as archery rangers or weapon casters.ErichAD2018-08-11T17:29:23ZRe: Forums: Ancestries & Backgrounds: Rules Question: Human Ancestry, Natural Ambition and MulticlassingRyskyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vasx?Rules-Question-Human-Ancestry-Natural#322018-08-11T19:18:23Z2018-08-11T10:41:29Z<p>As has been stated here and in other threads, no. Natural Ambition gives you a 1st Level Class Feat. It does not give you a floating 1st Level Class Feat slot that you can trade for anything that a normal Feat slot can be spent on.</p>
<p>You get exactly what it says it gives you.</p>As has been stated here and in other threads, no. Natural Ambition gives you a 1st Level Class Feat. It does not give you a floating 1st Level Class Feat slot that you can trade for anything that a normal Feat slot can be spent on.
You get exactly what it says it gives you.Rysky2018-08-11T10:41:29ZRe: Forums: Ancestries & Backgrounds: Rules Question: Human Ancestry, Natural Ambition and MulticlassingVentnorhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vasx?Rules-Question-Human-Ancestry-Natural#312018-08-11T19:18:23Z2018-08-11T06:42:06Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">JDLPF wrote:</div><blockquote> Natural Ambition doesn't say it grants you a class feat because it doesn't need to. Per p. 279, you can swap any class feat for an archetype feat. You still haven't shown a rule that conflicts with this, merely provided opinions, which while welcome, don't change the actual rules for multiclassing. </blockquote><p>Actually, if you want to be super rules-lawyerly about it, then let's look at the text.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Natural Ambition wrote:</div><blockquote>You were raised to be ambitious and always reach for the stars, causing you to progress quickly in your chosen field. You gain a 1st-level class feat for your class.</blockquote><p>Natural Ambition only allows you to take a 1st-level class feat that is specifically for your class. Archetype feats are not class feats for your class. They are class feats for the specific archetype that they are attached to, which other classes can gain access to by spending class feats at a specified level.
<p>But said archetype feats have the "archetype" tag, and not the "fighter" tag or the "sorcerer" tag. So archetype feats are, <b>R</b>ules <b>A</b>s <b>W</b>ritten, not class feats.</p>JDLPF wrote:Natural Ambition doesn't say it grants you a class feat because it doesn't need to. Per p. 279, you can swap any class feat for an archetype feat. You still haven't shown a rule that conflicts with this, merely provided opinions, which while welcome, don't change the actual rules for multiclassing.
Actually, if you want to be super rules-lawyerly about it, then let's look at the text. Natural Ambition wrote:You were raised to be ambitious and always reach for the stars, causing...Ventnor2018-08-11T06:42:06ZRe: Forums: Ancestries & Backgrounds: Rules Question: Human Ancestry, Natural Ambition and MulticlassingFalxuhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vasx?Rules-Question-Human-Ancestry-Natural#302018-08-11T02:41:25Z2018-08-11T02:19:30Z<p>Natural Ambition is an Ancestry Feat that specifically says you gain a 1st-level class feat for your class. The multi-class rules say you can spend your class feats on archetype feats. Since Natural Ambition is not a class feat, you cannot use it to spend on archetype feats.</p>
<p>I mean, besides the obvious interpretation that Natural Ambition allows you to choose FEAT [1].</p>
<p>But hey, feel free to allow it in your homebrewed games, I doubt your interpretation will be allowed in 'official' games.</p>Natural Ambition is an Ancestry Feat that specifically says you gain a 1st-level class feat for your class. The multi-class rules say you can spend your class feats on archetype feats. Since Natural Ambition is not a class feat, you cannot use it to spend on archetype feats.
I mean, besides the obvious interpretation that Natural Ambition allows you to choose FEAT [1].
But hey, feel free to allow it in your homebrewed games, I doubt your interpretation will be allowed in 'official' games.Falxu2018-08-11T02:19:30ZRe: Forums: Ancestries & Backgrounds: Rules Question: Human Ancestry, Natural Ambition and MulticlassingClaxonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vasx?Rules-Question-Human-Ancestry-Natural#292018-08-11T02:41:28Z2018-08-10T23:29:15Z<p>Regardless of the exact RAW, I will go out on a limb and say that I believe they intended you to only be able to take class feats which were available at first level.</p>
<p>That said, I'm glad to learn of this feat and will be picking it up through Aopted Ancestry as a way to gain extra class feats, which I felt I was lacking as a barbarian. Every level when you get access to new feats there's always at least 1 you want to take. So if there is more than one at a level...well you can't get both. My thing was I wanted sudden charge and raging intimidation.</p>Regardless of the exact RAW, I will go out on a limb and say that I believe they intended you to only be able to take class feats which were available at first level.
That said, I'm glad to learn of this feat and will be picking it up through Aopted Ancestry as a way to gain extra class feats, which I felt I was lacking as a barbarian. Every level when you get access to new feats there's always at least 1 you want to take. So if there is more than one at a level...well you can't get both. My...Claxon2018-08-10T23:29:15ZRe: Forums: Ancestries & Backgrounds: Rules Question: Human Ancestry, Natural Ambition and MulticlassingJDLPFhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vasx?Rules-Question-Human-Ancestry-Natural#282018-08-11T00:09:11Z2018-08-10T21:57:48Z<p>Natural Ambition doesn't say it grants you a class feat because it doesn't need to. Per p. 279, you can swap any class feat for an archetype feat. You still haven't shown a rule that conflicts with this, merely provided opinions, which while welcome, don't change the actual rules for multiclassing.</p>Natural Ambition doesn't say it grants you a class feat because it doesn't need to. Per p. 279, you can swap any class feat for an archetype feat. You still haven't shown a rule that conflicts with this, merely provided opinions, which while welcome, don't change the actual rules for multiclassing.JDLPF2018-08-10T21:57:48ZRe: Forums: Ancestries & Backgrounds: Rules Question: Human Ancestry, Natural Ambition and Multiclassingkaidhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vasx?Rules-Question-Human-Ancestry-Natural#272018-08-10T22:00:24Z2018-08-10T20:48:06Z<p>If there was an archetype dedication that was level 1 you could use natural ambition to take it is just another class feat. But you do need to have the level prereq met to take the feat and at level 1 you lack the levels to acquire any of them with natural ambition. That is subject to change on the final edition or future rule books.</p>
<p>And if you take it at level 5 it still grants a 1st level class feat. It does not say it grants you a bonus class feat it specifies the level of that class feat you get for taking it.</p>If there was an archetype dedication that was level 1 you could use natural ambition to take it is just another class feat. But you do need to have the level prereq met to take the feat and at level 1 you lack the levels to acquire any of them with natural ambition. That is subject to change on the final edition or future rule books.
And if you take it at level 5 it still grants a 1st level class feat. It does not say it grants you a bonus class feat it specifies the level of that class feat...kaid2018-08-10T20:48:06ZRe: Forums: Ancestries & Backgrounds: Rules Question: Human Ancestry, Natural Ambition and MulticlassingFranz Lunzerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vasx?Rules-Question-Human-Ancestry-Natural#262018-08-11T03:57:18Z2018-08-10T08:50:06Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">JDLPF wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Fuzzypaws wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Hopefully, archetype feats will get down shifted in the final version so dedications are 1st level, 4th level archetype feats become 2nd level feats, and so on.</p>
<p>But in the meantime, no. </p>
<p>Each feat has a level associated with it. That level is bound to the feat and part of its prerequisites. Since as it stands there are no 1st level archetype feats of any kind, you cannot use Ambition to get an archetype feat. </p>
<p>What it does allow you to do is pick up another actual class feat you wanted, so you can save your actual class feat slot for the archetype instead of spending it on the extra 1st level feat you wanted. </blockquote><p>You're committing a logic fallacy in your interpretation.
<p><i><b>Observation: </b>Class Feats have level prerequisites.
<br />
<b>Observation: </b>Archetype Feats have level prerequisites.
<br />
<b>Conclusion: </b>Archetype Feat level must match the Class Feat level.</i></p>
<p>This is wrong. The level prerequisites are the minimum <i>character</i> level you must be to take that Feat.</p>
<p>You can select a 1st level Class Feat at 5th level because you meet the prerequisites of being at least 1st level.</p>
<p>You can select a 4th level Archetype Feat at 5th level because you meet the prerequisites of being at least 4th level.</p>
<p>You can select any Archetype Feat in place of a Class Feat if you meet the prerequisites.</p>
<p>Thus you can select a 4th level Archetype Feat in place of a 1st level Class Feat at 5th level. </blockquote><p>While this all sounds good, I'd say that Natural Ambition doesn't grant you a feat at your characters level, but a "1st level class feat", that is: a feat for your characters class you could take if you were 1st level.
<p>Again I'd post the question I put up in another thread: for your Wizard 4+ with the fighter dedication feat, Conceal Spell and Fighter Resiliency are equivalent choices (as far as prerequisites are concerned), right? Meaning: you could choose to take one when you can choose to take the other, right?
<br />
With that in mind, do you think that at 5th level taking Natural Ambition, Conceal Spell would be a legal choice?</p>JDLPF wrote:Fuzzypaws wrote:Hopefully, archetype feats will get down shifted in the final version so dedications are 1st level, 4th level archetype feats become 2nd level feats, and so on.
But in the meantime, no.
Each feat has a level associated with it. That level is bound to the feat and part of its prerequisites. Since as it stands there are no 1st level archetype feats of any kind, you cannot use Ambition to get an archetype feat.
What it does allow you to do is pick up another actual...Franz Lunzer2018-08-10T08:50:06ZRe: Forums: Ancestries & Backgrounds: Rules Question: Human Ancestry, Natural Ambition and MulticlassingJDLPFhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vasx?Rules-Question-Human-Ancestry-Natural#252018-08-11T00:08:56Z2018-08-10T03:21:06Z<p>Don't forget the part before the section you quoted:</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Playtest Rulebook, p. 318 wrote:</div><blockquote>In general when retraining, you can’t make choices that you couldn’t when first making your character</blockquote><p>If it's legal when first making the choice for your character, it's legal for retraining at a later level. And selecting any archetype feat for any class feat is legal.Don't forget the part before the section you quoted:
Playtest Rulebook, p. 318 wrote:In general when retraining, you can’t make choices that you couldn’t when first making your character
If it's legal when first making the choice for your character, it's legal for retraining at a later level. And selecting any archetype feat for any class feat is legal.JDLPF2018-08-10T03:21:06ZRe: Forums: Ancestries & Backgrounds: Rules Question: Human Ancestry, Natural Ambition and MulticlassingFuzzypaws (alias of Bug Underfoot)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vasx?Rules-Question-Human-Ancestry-Natural#242018-08-30T06:16:29Z2018-08-10T02:58:52Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">JDLPF wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Fuzzypaws wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Hopefully, archetype feats will get down shifted in the final version so dedications are 1st level, 4th level archetype feats become 2nd level feats, and so on.</p>
<p>But in the meantime, no. </p>
<p>Each feat has a level associated with it. That level is bound to the feat and part of its prerequisites. Since as it stands there are no 1st level archetype feats of any kind, you cannot use Ambition to get an archetype feat. </p>
<p>What it does allow you to do is pick up another actual class feat you wanted, so you can save your actual class feat slot for the archetype instead of spending it on the extra 1st level feat you wanted. </blockquote><p>You're committing a logic fallacy in your interpretation.
<p><i><b>Observation: </b>Class Feats have level prerequisites.
<br />
<b>Observation: </b>Archetype Feats have level prerequisites.
<br />
<b>Conclusion: </b>Archetype Feat level must match the Class Feat level.</i></p>
<p>This is wrong. The level prerequisites are the minimum <i>character</i> level you must be to take that Feat.</p>
<p>You can select a 1st level Class Feat at 5th level because you meet the prerequisites of being at least 1st level.</p>
<p>You can select a 4th level Archetype Feat at 5th level because you meet the prerequisites of being at least 4th level.</p>
<p>You can select any Archetype Feat in place of a Class Feat if you meet the prerequisites.</p>
<p>Thus you can select a 4th level Archetype Feat in place of a 1st level Class Feat at 5th level. </blockquote><p>Oh, you're <i>that</i> kind of abusive rules lawyer. I see. :p
<p>The intent of the rules is very clear. For example, from the retraining rules:</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Page 318 wrote:</div><blockquote> For instance, you can’t exchange a feat for a different type of feat, a higher-level feat, or one that requires prerequisites you didn’t meet at the time you took the original feat.</blockquote><p>You would not be able to retrain at 4th level to replace a 1st level class feat with a 4th level archetype feat.
<p>By the same token, you cannot replace a specifically called-out 1st level bonus feat with a 4th level archetype feat, no matter whether they forgot to include the words "of the same or higher level" one time on page 279.</p>JDLPF wrote:Fuzzypaws wrote:Hopefully, archetype feats will get down shifted in the final version so dedications are 1st level, 4th level archetype feats become 2nd level feats, and so on.
But in the meantime, no.
Each feat has a level associated with it. That level is bound to the feat and part of its prerequisites. Since as it stands there are no 1st level archetype feats of any kind, you cannot use Ambition to get an archetype feat.
What it does allow you to do is pick up another actual...Fuzzypaws (alias of Bug Underfoot)2018-08-10T02:58:52ZRe: Forums: Ancestries & Backgrounds: Rules Question: Human Ancestry, Natural Ambition and MulticlassingJDLPFhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vasx?Rules-Question-Human-Ancestry-Natural#232018-08-10T03:29:12Z2018-08-10T01:22:38Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Fuzzypaws wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Hopefully, archetype feats will get down shifted in the final version so dedications are 1st level, 4th level archetype feats become 2nd level feats, and so on.</p>
<p>But in the meantime, no. </p>
<p>Each feat has a level associated with it. That level is bound to the feat and part of its prerequisites. Since as it stands there are no 1st level archetype feats of any kind, you cannot use Ambition to get an archetype feat. </p>
<p>What it does allow you to do is pick up another actual class feat you wanted, so you can save your actual class feat slot for the archetype instead of spending it on the extra 1st level feat you wanted. </blockquote><p>You're committing a logic fallacy in your interpretation.
<p><i><b>Observation: </b>Class Feats have level prerequisites.
<br />
<b>Observation: </b>Archetype Feats have level prerequisites.
<br />
<b>Conclusion: </b>Archetype Feat level must match the Class Feat level.</i></p>
<p>This is wrong. The level prerequisites are the minimum <i>character</i> level you must be to take that Feat.</p>
<p>You can select a 1st level Class Feat at 5th level because you meet the prerequisites of being at least 1st level.</p>
<p>You can select a 4th level Archetype Feat at 5th level because you meet the prerequisites of being at least 4th level.</p>
<p>You can select any Archetype Feat in place of a Class Feat if you meet the prerequisites.</p>
<p>Thus you can select a 4th level Archetype Feat in place of a 1st level Class Feat at 5th level.</p>Fuzzypaws wrote:Hopefully, archetype feats will get down shifted in the final version so dedications are 1st level, 4th level archetype feats become 2nd level feats, and so on.
But in the meantime, no.
Each feat has a level associated with it. That level is bound to the feat and part of its prerequisites. Since as it stands there are no 1st level archetype feats of any kind, you cannot use Ambition to get an archetype feat.
What it does allow you to do is pick up another actual class feat...JDLPF2018-08-10T01:22:38ZRe: Forums: Ancestries & Backgrounds: Rules Question: Human Ancestry, Natural Ambition and MulticlassingFuzzypaws (alias of Bug Underfoot)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vasx?Rules-Question-Human-Ancestry-Natural#222018-08-10T00:55:05Z2018-08-10T00:55:05Z<p>Hopefully, archetype feats will get down shifted in the final version so dedications are 1st level, 4th level archetype feats become 2nd level feats, and so on.</p>
<p>But in the meantime, no. </p>
<p>Each feat has a level associated with it. That level is bound to the feat and part of its prerequisites. Since as it stands there are no 1st level archetype feats of any kind, you cannot use Ambition to get an archetype feat. </p>
<p>What it does allow you to do is pick up another actual class feat you wanted, so you can save your actual class feat slot for the archetype instead of spending it on the extra 1st level feat you wanted.</p>Hopefully, archetype feats will get down shifted in the final version so dedications are 1st level, 4th level archetype feats become 2nd level feats, and so on.
But in the meantime, no.
Each feat has a level associated with it. That level is bound to the feat and part of its prerequisites. Since as it stands there are no 1st level archetype feats of any kind, you cannot use Ambition to get an archetype feat.
What it does allow you to do is pick up another actual class feat you wanted, so...Fuzzypaws (alias of Bug Underfoot)2018-08-10T00:55:05ZRe: Forums: Ancestries & Backgrounds: Rules Question: Human Ancestry, Natural Ambition and MulticlassingAsuethttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vasx?Rules-Question-Human-Ancestry-Natural#212018-08-15T12:58:21Z2018-08-09T16:51:43Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Jurassic Pratt wrote:</div><blockquote> You can take a first level class feat with any of your higher level class feats, so I don't see how the fact that natural ambition granting you a 1st level class feat is any different in regards to whether it could be swapped out. </blockquote><p>Because natural ambition is supposed to be restricted to lvl 1 feats and by using that for an archetype feat would let you in theory take a lvl 18 feat which is just ridiculous.Jurassic Pratt wrote:You can take a first level class feat with any of your higher level class feats, so I don't see how the fact that natural ambition granting you a 1st level class feat is any different in regards to whether it could be swapped out.
Because natural ambition is supposed to be restricted to lvl 1 feats and by using that for an archetype feat would let you in theory take a lvl 18 feat which is just ridiculous.Asuet2018-08-09T16:51:43ZRe: Forums: Ancestries & Backgrounds: Rules Question: Human Ancestry, Natural Ambition and MulticlassingJurassic Pratthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vasx?Rules-Question-Human-Ancestry-Natural#202018-08-09T13:48:15Z2018-08-09T13:48:15Z<p>You can take a first level class feat with any of your higher level class feats, so I don't see how the fact that natural ambition granting you a 1st level class feat is any different in regards to whether it could be swapped out.</p>You can take a first level class feat with any of your higher level class feats, so I don't see how the fact that natural ambition granting you a 1st level class feat is any different in regards to whether it could be swapped out.Jurassic Pratt2018-08-09T13:48:15ZRe: Forums: Ancestries & Backgrounds: Rules Question: Human Ancestry, Natural Ambition and MulticlassingRethgaal (RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vasx?Rules-Question-Human-Ancestry-Natural#192018-08-09T13:34:47Z2018-08-09T13:34:47Z<p>I would say that no, it doesn't let you take an archetype feat, because Natural Ambition specifically says you can select a first-level class feat. An archetype feat is decidedly not a first-level class feat, so therefore, the specific rule of Natural Ambition supersedes the general rule of taking archetype feats in place of class feats.</p>I would say that no, it doesn't let you take an archetype feat, because Natural Ambition specifically says you can select a first-level class feat. An archetype feat is decidedly not a first-level class feat, so therefore, the specific rule of Natural Ambition supersedes the general rule of taking archetype feats in place of class feats.Rethgaal (RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32)2018-08-09T13:34:47ZRe: Forums: Ancestries & Backgrounds: Rules Question: Human Ancestry, Natural Ambition and MulticlassingFranz Lunzerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vasx?Rules-Question-Human-Ancestry-Natural#182018-08-09T13:22:47Z2018-08-09T13:22:47Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Luke Styer wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Both positions make sense, though I’m inclined to lean toward the reading that Natural Ambition does allow an archetype feat so long as the prerequisites are met.</p>
<p>The specific trumps the general, so I guess it comes down to which of Natural Ambition or the dedication feat is more specific. </blockquote><p>That would be rather easy to determine: The rules for dedication feats are pretty general. The rules in the text of Natural Ambition ("a 1st level class feat") sound rather specific.Luke Styer wrote:Both positions make sense, though I’m inclined to lean toward the reading that Natural Ambition does allow an archetype feat so long as the prerequisites are met.
The specific trumps the general, so I guess it comes down to which of Natural Ambition or the dedication feat is more specific.
That would be rather easy to determine: The rules for dedication feats are pretty general. The rules in the text of Natural Ambition ("a 1st level class feat") sound rather specific.Franz Lunzer2018-08-09T13:22:47ZRe: Forums: Ancestries & Backgrounds: Rules Question: Human Ancestry, Natural Ambition and MulticlassingLuke Styer (alias of lstyer)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vasx?Rules-Question-Human-Ancestry-Natural#172018-08-09T11:34:59Z2018-08-09T11:34:59Z<p>Both positions make sense, though I’m inclined to lean toward the reading that Natural Ambition does allow an archetype feat so long as the prerequisites are met.</p>
<p>The specific trumps the general, so I guess it comes down to which of Natural Ambition or the dedication feat is more specific.</p>Both positions make sense, though I’m inclined to lean toward the reading that Natural Ambition does allow an archetype feat so long as the prerequisites are met.
The specific trumps the general, so I guess it comes down to which of Natural Ambition or the dedication feat is more specific.Luke Styer (alias of lstyer)2018-08-09T11:34:59ZRe: Forums: Ancestries & Backgrounds: Rules Question: Human Ancestry, Natural Ambition and MulticlassingAsuethttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2vasx?Rules-Question-Human-Ancestry-Natural#162018-08-09T07:54:07Z2018-08-09T07:54:07Z<p>The argument is that the feat you get from Natural ambition is not just a normal feat. It is restricted in what it's supposed to give, namely a lvl 1 feat. So that restriction has to be applied to the archetype feat as well. And there are no lvl 1 archetype feats. That is obviously how it is intended. Rules as written you might be right. This should get some clarification in an upcoming errata.</p>The argument is that the feat you get from Natural ambition is not just a normal feat. It is restricted in what it's supposed to give, namely a lvl 1 feat. So that restriction has to be applied to the archetype feat as well. And there are no lvl 1 archetype feats. That is obviously how it is intended. Rules as written you might be right. This should get some clarification in an upcoming errata.Asuet2018-08-09T07:54:07Z