Example of how bad crafting magic items currently is


Magic Items


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I don't like the fact that we have a Craft Magic Items catchall talents for anything that goes from crafting armor/weapons to rings to staves/wands to potions.

It feels we should have at least subcategories. Scrolls and Alchemist items already have their own, why not potions? Why not differentiate between armor/weapons to the rest of Wondrous items?

Let's take as an example a PC that wants to craft a minor potion of healing:

- Magic Item of lvl1, common, cost: 3gp
- Requirements: Craft Magic Items Feat, Formula, pay 1,5gp, at least Expert in Crafting, have Artisan Tools, at least 3 Downtime

What is the DC Crafting check? It's up to GM! This is especially bad, we should get guidance for this but I assume it's 14 (baseline for lvl1 magic item) + 1 (item quality is UNKNOWN, so +1? dunno) + 1 (item rarity is common, so +1? dunno), so what? 16? Let's try 16.

To beat the DC, let's assume INT +2 lvl3 char with Expert Crafting it's +6 right? So 10+ beats the DC? Am I correct?

Then the PC either pays the rest of 1,5gp or spends 4 more Downtime (4sp per day to make up for the other 1,5gp), correct?

A batch of 4 potions would require 6gp upfront and 3 base Downtime plus 15 Downtime to finish the batch, correct?

This example somehow makes sense to me (I would lover the DC by 2 for successive brews as if you nail it once it should be lower), but it's too convoluted and I don't like:
- CatchAll talent
- DC is not guided
- Item Quality is a mystery


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Quote:
So 10+ beats the DC? Am I correct?

That pretty much sums up all possible checks and intended DCs.


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"When a character Crafts an item, use the high-difficulty DC
for the item’s level as a baseline—for example, the DC for a
common level 5 magic item is 21. If the item is uncommon,
you might increase the difficulty to severe and rare to extreme." (p. 337)

A level 1 high DC is 14, so to craft a common level 1 item has a DC of 14. So the Int 14 level 3 expert crafter (+6) would need an 8 to succeed. Since he is 2 levels above the item, it only takes 2 days to complete if he was willing to pay full price for the item. As long as he doesn't crit fail, he doesn't lose the materials and can try again. Even if he does crit fail, he only loses 10% of the materials. If he critically succeeds (on an 18-20), you are considered 1 level higher for reducing cost.

So for the 4 minor healing potions, after 2 days, you spent 6 gp (60 sp). You can now spend the remaining amount (60 sp), or reduce the cost by 4 sp for each day over the amount (6 sp if you critically succeed). (p. 148)

You do also need to spend the 10 sp for the formula in the first place (p. 188). The basic artisan's tools are 50 sp. You could also spend 200 sp on expert artisan tools for a +1 to the roll (p. 184). Of course, they are bulk 8, so you aren't carrying them around in your backpack.

If you have a friend, they can provide an additional +2 if they get a DC 15 aid check (+4 if they critically succeed, -2 if they critically fail) (p. 307). If your friend is a bard with inspire competence they cannot fail or critically fail to provide aid, and they use their performance skill to boot (p. 233). (Note that if the person you want to aid you has the higher roll, you should be aiding them.)

These rules are scattered all over the book, so it's not unreasonable for you to have missed them.


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I think it was clear that I read already the rulebook or I would not be able to make the example and most of your copy paste does not really help with my questions..

But yes the base Downtime is indeed 2 not 3 for a 3lvl PC crafting a lvl1 item. For the rest my example seems correct and actually it looks like you forgot to add the item quality and the item rarity to the DC. 14 is only the baseline.

"The GM determines the DC to Craft an item, which is based on its level, quality, and rarity, and might be affected by other circumstances."

p.148

So like I said the real question is how to factor the common item (+1?) and the item quality (standard for all potions?)

We should really get more color on this.

Dark Archive

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Dilvias wrote:

"When a character Crafts an item, use the high-difficulty DC

for the item’s level as a baseline—for example, the DC for a
common level 5 magic item is 21. If the item is uncommon,
you might increase the difficulty to severe and rare to extreme." (p. 337)

A level 1 high DC is 14, so to craft a common level 1 item has a DC of 14. So the Int 14 level 3 expert crafter (+6) would need an 8 to succeed. Since he is 2 levels above the item, it only takes 2 days to complete if he was willing to pay full price for the item. As long as he doesn't crit fail, he doesn't lose the materials and can try again. Even if he does crit fail, he only loses 10% of the materials. If he critically succeeds (on an 18-20), you are considered 1 level higher for reducing cost.

So for the 4 minor healing potions, after 2 days, you spent 6 gp (60 sp). You can now spend the remaining amount (60 sp), or reduce the cost by 4 sp for each day over the amount (6 sp if you critically succeed). (p. 148)

You do also need to spend the 10 sp for the formula in the first place (p. 188). The basic artisan's tools are 50 sp. You could also spend 200 sp on expert artisan tools for a +1 to the roll (p. 184). Of course, they are bulk 8, so you aren't carrying them around in your backpack.

If you have a friend, they can provide an additional +2 if they get a DC 15 aid check (+4 if they critically succeed, -2 if they critically fail) (p. 307). If your friend is a bard with inspire competence they cannot fail or critically fail to provide aid, and they use their performance skill to boot (p. 233). (Note that if the person you want to aid you has the higher roll, you should be aiding them.)

These rules are scattered all over the book, so it's not unreasonable for you to have missed them.

I'm going to either need these rules to be simplified, or have some sort of flowchart while GMing.

It's also interesting from a magic item shop perspective. If I go into a shop and clear them out of healing potions, it's going to take them anywhere from 2 to 17 days to restock. I'm assuming they want to craft at the lowest cost possible to maximize profits, but 17 days for a few potions seems rather harsh.


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Mergy wrote:

I'm going to either need these rules to be simplified, or have some sort of flowchart while GMing.

It's also interesting from a magic item shop perspective. If I go into a shop and clear them out of healing it's going to take them anywhere from 2 to 17 days to restock. I'm assuming they want to craft at the lowest cost possible to maximize profits, but 17 days for a few potions seems rather harsh.

Don't apply PC crafting rules to NPCs. Let NPCs be more specialized, they can create stuff you want them to faster and cheaper and at a higher proficiency level that doesn't coincide with their combat ability. PCs can (eventually, and at low efficiency) do everything, including craft everything. NPCs don't have to work the same way, let them do a few things, but those things better than the PCs if it supports your story and world building.


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Xenocrat wrote:
Mergy wrote:

I'm going to either need these rules to be simplified, or have some sort of flowchart while GMing.

It's also interesting from a magic item shop perspective. If I go into a shop and clear them out of healing it's going to take them anywhere from 2 to 17 days to restock. I'm assuming they want to craft at the lowest cost possible to maximize profits, but 17 days for a few potions seems rather harsh.

Don't apply PC crafting rules to NPCs. Let NPCs be more specialized, they can create stuff you want them to faster and cheaper and at a higher proficiency level that doesn't coincide with their combat ability. PCs can (eventually, and at low efficiency) do everything, including craft everything. NPCs don't have to work the same way, let them do a few things, but those things better than the PCs if it supports your story and world building.

Also, NPCs running a magic shop don't necessarily need to make all their potions themselves. There could be crafters--perhaps hundreds of them throughout the world--creating items merely to resell to stores. They don't have the acumen or desire to run a shop themselves, but they love crafting. A good shopkeep will have contact with probably half a dozen such individuals. They could restock their potions within a few days, or replace other, more significant items in a week.


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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Sure 15 days might seem like a lot to restock 4 lesser healing potions but how often are they actually purchased? Is there likely going to be another group of adventurers through the same place within two weeks? For small towns that seems unlikely.


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Ghilteras wrote:
I don't like the fact that we have a Craft Magic Items catchall talents for anything that goes from crafting armor/weapons to rings to staves/wands to potions.

I actually like it. I'm really over the whole magic mart setup of 3.5e and would much rather have a single feat the party can invest in and give them sufficient downtime to make their own magic items.

Ghilteras wrote:
What is the DC Crafting check? It's up to GM! This is especially bad, we should get guidance for this

Page 337 actually has explicit guidelines on this. So you are right in saying DC 14.

Ghilteras wrote:
To beat the DC, let's assume INT +2 lvl3 char with Expert Crafting it's +6 right? So 10+ beats the DC? Am I correct?

Yup.


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John Lynch 106 wrote:
I actually like it. I'm really over the whole magic mart setup of 3.5e and would much rather have a single feat the party can invest in and give them sufficient downtime to make their own magic items.

This is one of the biggest draws for me, as I love the idea of a party that can make, repair and upgrade their own gear as needed, rather than relying on the DM to place a 'Christmas list' of their most desired items in random treasure, or for shops to always have exactly what they need in stock.

Only other change I'd like in this area is a way to make Crafting a signature skill for classes that lack it, like Barbarians, most Clerics and Monks.


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Still... the gains are awful. It went from being a moneymaking feature (buy all half price, not good) to being an instant shop (pay all but you can do it in any town, also not good). Would really appreciate a halfway so characters who invested several ranks and feats could get a return benefit.


Fallyna wrote:
John Lynch 106 wrote:
I actually like it. I'm really over the whole magic mart setup of 3.5e and would much rather have a single feat the party can invest in and give them sufficient downtime to make their own magic items.

This is one of the biggest draws for me, as I love the idea of a party that can make, repair and upgrade their own gear as needed, rather than relying on the DM to place a 'Christmas list' of their most desired items in random treasure, or for shops to always have exactly what they need in stock.

Only other change I'd like in this area is a way to make Crafting a signature skill for classes that lack it, like Barbarians, most Clerics and Monks.

Possible down side; if the players are allowed to make any item they want, and heck can maybe even easily make custom items later..., why would they like any custom item I give them? Just sell it to make what they really wanted.

That's for later I suppose so let me return to a different argument.

How long of Down time do other GMs usually give out?


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MerlinCross wrote:
Possible down side; if the players are allowed to make any item they want, and heck can maybe even easily make custom items later..., why would they like any custom item I give them? Just sell it to make what they really wanted.
Ediwir wrote:
Still... the gains are awful. It went from being a moneymaking feature (buy all half price, not good) to being an instant shop (pay all but you can do it in any town, also not good).

Actually Paizo have already anticipated this and require the formula of a magic item be written down. So effectively we've gone from buying magic items to buying formulas. I personally prefer that because any town can have some "scrolls of strange formulas" lying around that they never understood and are happy to let the PC's borrow. PC's are also able to only craft magic items of their level so you can hand out items above the PC's level as treasure (I believe the book says you should hand out one above level item per level). That stuff will be the coveted treasure.

MerlinCross wrote:
How long of Down time do other GMs usually give out?

I expect it will need to increase significantly for those GMs who currently complete an AP in the span of 1 in character month.


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MerlinCross wrote:

Possible down side; if the players are allowed to make any item they want, and heck can maybe even easily make custom items later..., why would they like any custom item I give them? Just sell it to make what they really wanted.

That's for later I suppose so let me return to a different argument.

How long of Down time do other GMs usually give out?

Already an issue with the current wealth by level system, as the DM can allocate twice as much treasure that the party doesn't want or can't use (which they then sell for half as much), or give them exactly what they want, despite the sheer improbability of a randomly encountered monster possessing it. I'd rather see them gather the resources needed (including formulas) to craft what they really want, as well as setting aside the downtime to do so. The ones that aren't crafting can practice other downtime activities.

As John Lynch 106 pointed out, they can't craft items above their own level, so they'll always be greedy for those items, as well as looking for ways to barter them to other NPC's for items of equivalent value, rather than selling them for half price. Not all crafting attempts will be successful, so the players should always be left wanting more, providing a strong motivation for adventuring.


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Apophenia wrote:
Sure 15 days might seem like a lot to restock 4 lesser healing potions but how often are they actually purchased? Is there likely going to be another group of adventurers through the same place within two weeks? For small towns that seems unlikely.

I can see that, but healing potions would be pretty high in demand even without adventurers. All sorts of injuries happen in small towns, like a kid getting kicked by a mule, someone breaking a limb in a fall, injury chopping wood, animal bite etc. Using them to heal injured livestock is something else I can see, a cow or horse is a big investment and it makes sense to take care of them. I could see a small village going through a couple a month on average. They won't necessarily have access to a cleric.


I rather like the approach of the new crafting system, you can have your items cheap or quick, pick one. The crafting per day quite possibly needs to be increased though, I'll have to see how it works in play. Also the rules need to be clarified, they're a bit hard to follow at bits. That applies to most of the rules though.

I do wonder about downtime. The APs rarely have any real downtime at all. It's usually a race against the clock. And it looks like crafting on the go isn't really a thing anymore, so this can be an issue. Hopefully going forward they'll add more downtime to the APs.


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Given that the book lists dozens of magic items, I think it would have been reasonable to list the DC to make them, rather than making the GM go through the spurious and arbitrary rigmarole of working it out.


Mudfoot wrote:
Given that the book lists dozens of magic items, I think it would have been reasonable to list the DC to make them, rather than making the GM go through the spurious and arbitrary rigmarole of working it out.

it does say so in the crafting section.

for common items, it's a high DC for the item level


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I mean for each individual item. So on p382 is Blessed Oil. It tells me that it's 8th level and costs 60gp and so on. Why not just tell me there and then the DC to make it? I don't know offhand what the High DC is for level 6 and I don't know offhand* where in the book to look for that. And I don't know its Quality anyway. Maybe Expert? At least in PF1 there was a formula which you could know, rather than an arbitrary range of numbers spread around the book.

* p337 in case anyone's wondering


Mudfoot wrote:

I mean for each individual item. So on p382 is Blessed Oil. It tells me that it's 8th level and costs 60gp and so on. Why not just tell me there and then the DC to make it? I don't know offhand what the High DC is for level 6 and I don't know offhand* where in the book to look for that. And I don't know its Quality anyway. Maybe Expert? At least in PF1 there was a formula which you could know, rather than an arbitrary range of numbers spread around the book.

* p337 in case anyone's wondering

well, the simplest answer is: to reserve space and remove clutter.

you, as a player, don't even need to know, but as a DM it's a very, VERY handy table to keep open in front of you at all times.

as for quality, if it's expert/master/etc it's always written on the item.


Doktor Weasel wrote:
healing potions would be pretty high in demand even without adventurers.

I disagree. I think most people would simply die.

Doktor Weasel wrote:
All sorts of injuries happen in small towns, like a kid getting kicked by a mule, someone breaking a limb in a fall, injury chopping wood, animal bite etc. Using them to heal injured livestock is something else I can see, a cow or horse is a big investment and it makes sense to take care of them. I could see a small village going through a couple a month on average. They won't necessarily have access to a cleric.

If a kid gets kicked by a mule and survives, first aid can save him from dying. Also if this kid has CHA 8 he's just outta luck with wanting a potion to work. Breaking a limb is also not life threatening and so the expense of a 30 silver piece item vs being off work for the duration of the recuperation may just not work out for most commoners. Instead waiting until they can get the local priest to heal with a substantially smaller donation would be the ticket (assuming a broken limb is represented by HP damage and cured by restoring HP damage). Your cow or horse may have a priest be called for. Because trying to get it to eat or drink something the potion has been imbued with isn't going to be easy. Also if the horse has CHA 8 or less then you're screwed.

Resonance has definitely reduced the level in which magic could theoretically be applied. In practice however, I think a 50gp item in the PF1e economy (which was copper/silver based for non-adventurers) would be prohibitively expense in most cases. So setting-wise very little has likely changed.

Shadow Lodge

Doktor Weasel wrote:
Apophenia wrote:
Sure 15 days might seem like a lot to restock 4 lesser healing potions but how often are they actually purchased? Is there likely going to be another group of adventurers through the same place within two weeks? For small towns that seems unlikely.
I can see that, but healing potions would be pretty high in demand even without adventurers. All sorts of injuries happen in small towns, like a kid getting kicked by a mule, someone breaking a limb in a fall, injury chopping wood, animal bite etc. Using them to heal injured livestock is something else I can see, a cow or horse is a big investment and it makes sense to take care of them. I could see a small village going through a couple a month on average. They won't necessarily have access to a cleric.

True, but healing potions aren't entirely necessary for such injuries when there are alchemy remedies and an expert in Medicine to set your broken bone. After that, it's just a day or two of bed rest, and those insecure civilians should be perfectly fine again.

Healing potions are for when you need those injuries reversed right now, usually for life-threatening wounds or between rooms with certainly hostile foes in them.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
John Lynch 106 wrote:
Also if this kid has CHA 8 he's just outta luck with wanting a potion to work.

"Outta luck" is a weird way to spell "has a 55% chance of it working."


Shisumo wrote:
John Lynch 106 wrote:
Also if this kid has CHA 8 he's just outta luck with wanting a potion to work.
"Outta luck" is a weird way to spell "has a 55% chance of it working."

I forgot you can use stuff with no resonance. How many silver can a typical village family spare though on a chance to save their kid? 60? 90? 150? How many emergency potions does a town keep on hand?


Mergy wrote:
Dilvias wrote:

"When a character Crafts an item, use the high-difficulty DC

for the item’s level as a baseline—for example, the DC for a
common level 5 magic item is 21. If the item is uncommon,
you might increase the difficulty to severe and rare to extreme." (p. 337)

A level 1 high DC is 14, so to craft a common level 1 item has a DC of 14. So the Int 14 level 3 expert crafter (+6) would need an 8 to succeed. Since he is 2 levels above the item, it only takes 2 days to complete if he was willing to pay full price for the item. As long as he doesn't crit fail, he doesn't lose the materials and can try again. Even if he does crit fail, he only loses 10% of the materials. If he critically succeeds (on an 18-20), you are considered 1 level higher for reducing cost.

So for the 4 minor healing potions, after 2 days, you spent 6 gp (60 sp). You can now spend the remaining amount (60 sp), or reduce the cost by 4 sp for each day over the amount (6 sp if you critically succeed). (p. 148)

You do also need to spend the 10 sp for the formula in the first place (p. 188). The basic artisan's tools are 50 sp. You could also spend 200 sp on expert artisan tools for a +1 to the roll (p. 184). Of course, they are bulk 8, so you aren't carrying them around in your backpack.

If you have a friend, they can provide an additional +2 if they get a DC 15 aid check (+4 if they critically succeed, -2 if they critically fail) (p. 307). If your friend is a bard with inspire competence they cannot fail or critically fail to provide aid, and they use their performance skill to boot (p. 233). (Note that if the person you want to aid you has the higher roll, you should be aiding them.)

These rules are scattered all over the book, so it's not unreasonable for you to have missed them.

I'm going to either need these rules to be simplified, or have some sort of flowchart while GMing.

It's also interesting from a magic item shop perspective. If I go into a shop and clear them out of healing...

If the potion shop has a level 4 alchemist there which they probably would they can make 8 potions a batch. So they could restock pretty quickly for a small profit or restock more slowly for a much bigger profit.


Shisumo wrote:
John Lynch 106 wrote:
Also if this kid has CHA 8 he's just outta luck with wanting a potion to work.
"Outta luck" is a weird way to spell "has a 55% chance of it working."

I never heard a doctor describe 55% chance as good.

The cost of a magic or alchemical potion (they are the same) is kinda exorbitant for village kids.

Maybe hiring a master doctor is more cost effective, with a 14 wis (starting 12 plus the increase at level 5),a level 7 doctor should have like 7+2+2+1(expert tools)= a +12. If he has an assistant that could be bumped up to +14.

So 75% for a d10+2 healing.

Not sure how much hiring a level 7 npc for a task costs though.

And you'll probably need to be in a city.

In a village, a level 5 expert healer would not be unheard of though, but lower chances (like 60%)


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John Lynch 106 wrote:
Also if this kid has CHA 8 he's just outta luck with wanting a potion to work.

Only dwarf infants would have 8 CHA, since now you start with 10 in all Abilities. So by now, people would know that potions do not work very well in dwarves, and be wary of possibly wasting precious resources (if the potion was a communal good in the village) on them. And that's how racism begins :p

That said, yes the potions are expensive as hell for the everyday commoner. Expert healers, as suggested by shroudb, would be the solution?


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Given the healing you can get with natural medicine it seems like that would probably be more often used by villagers than potions.
You can spend 10 minutes applying natural cures
to heal a creature, after which you must attempt a DC 20 Nature
check. On a success, the target regains Hit Points equal to 1d8
plus your Wisdom modifier. If you’re a master of Nature, the
target regains an additional 1d8 Hit Points. You can use this feat
to heal a particular creature only once per day.
If you’re in the wilderness, you might have easier access to fresh
ingredients, allowing you to restore an additional 1d8 Hit Points on
a success or critical success, subject to the GM’s determination.

No cost no resonance usage and probably pretty reasonble to find some village wise woman or healer who can do it consistently enough for the villagers requirements. Between that and the medine stuff I don't see that villagers would ever mess much with alchemy elixers or potions. Those are good for people who are "rich" and need fast in the heat of the moment healing. If you are poor then the slower options make a lot more sense.


freduncio wrote:
John Lynch 106 wrote:
Also if this kid has CHA 8 he's just outta luck with wanting a potion to work.

Only dwarf infants would have 8 CHA, since now you start with 10 in all Abilities. So by now, people would know that potions do not work very well in dwarves, and be wary of possibly wasting precious resources (if the potion was a communal good in the village) on them. And that's how racism begins :p

That said, yes the potions are expensive as hell for the everyday commoner. Expert healers, as suggested by shroudb, would be the solution?

Do NPC non-classed children start with a 10 in every score? If so the world just became a more boring place.


MerlinCross wrote:
Fallyna wrote:
John Lynch 106 wrote:
I actually like it. I'm really over the whole magic mart setup of 3.5e and would much rather have a single feat the party can invest in and give them sufficient downtime to make their own magic items.

This is one of the biggest draws for me, as I love the idea of a party that can make, repair and upgrade their own gear as needed, rather than relying on the DM to place a 'Christmas list' of their most desired items in random treasure, or for shops to always have exactly what they need in stock.

Only other change I'd like in this area is a way to make Crafting a signature skill for classes that lack it, like Barbarians, most Clerics and Monks.

Possible down side; if the players are allowed to make any item they want, and heck can maybe even easily make custom items later..., why would they like any custom item I give them? Just sell it to make what they really wanted.

That's for later I suppose so let me return to a different argument.

How long of Down time do other GMs usually give out?

I don't know but every time I DMastered, I usually prepare one magical item (or something special) for every player, I can't recall any of my players that didn't love their special magic item.

Sincerely to me it is maybe the best part of DMing, understand the character and building on top of it.

Examples of PC's special items:
1.- White Dragon (baby) for a Viking Paladin, he had to grow the dragon, restrained him, taught him to be good.
2.- Psionic Ice and Fire Axe, he spend one point to turn it into Ice or Fire and three to turn it into Frostbrand or Firebrand
3.- Whacky Dagger (to a rogue) on 20, the Dagger triggered a random power: 1 - Healed the target 2 - Freedom the target 19 - Drain a level 20 - Destroy vs save (if passes 10d6)
4.- Symbiont (like venom) to a rogue, but made of chains: spiked chain + 10 to climb, -4 to wis, protective chain....
5.- Heart of darkness to a master spy (the class sucks): magic jar 4/day; suck memories; feed on soul.
6.- Gurthang (to an archer) evil black sword; no bonuses, if it hits it kills. The player was terribly afraid of the sword (in a crit failure he could get hurt (and killed))
You are the DM, just give them flavour, not bonuses. Bonuses are for computer games.


John Lynch 106 wrote:
freduncio wrote:
John Lynch 106 wrote:
Also if this kid has CHA 8 he's just outta luck with wanting a potion to work.

Only dwarf infants would have 8 CHA, since now you start with 10 in all Abilities. So by now, people would know that potions do not work very well in dwarves, and be wary of possibly wasting precious resources (if the potion was a communal good in the village) on them. And that's how racism begins :p

That said, yes the potions are expensive as hell for the everyday commoner. Expert healers, as suggested by shroudb, would be the solution?
Do NPC non-classed children start with a 10 in every score? If so the world just became a more boring place.

As far as I know, there is no standard NPC array, at least not yet. That is up to the GM. I wouldn't make it the case though.

Dark Archive

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John Lynch 106 wrote:
freduncio wrote:
John Lynch 106 wrote:
Also if this kid has CHA 8 he's just outta luck with wanting a potion to work.

Only dwarf infants would have 8 CHA, since now you start with 10 in all Abilities. So by now, people would know that potions do not work very well in dwarves, and be wary of possibly wasting precious resources (if the potion was a communal good in the village) on them. And that's how racism begins :p

That said, yes the potions are expensive as hell for the everyday commoner. Expert healers, as suggested by shroudb, would be the solution?
Do NPC non-classed children start with a 10 in every score? If so the world just became a more boring place.

Given the way NPCs are created, I don't think the stats matter. Just have nearly all unclassed NPCs have 1 resonance by default, and then they have the option to find a magical ring that turns them invisible.


30sp would be at worst 2 months work. The thing is the worst is not normal, so I would say one to two weeks pay on the low end of average. Remember that the characters start off with 150sp and that a lot of NPC would likely have at least a third of that on hand in savings. If the elixirs do not go bad over time I would think most families would have one or two on hand.

A character can make lower level items faster than at level items. I would think that Minor elixir of life would be very common item. It could be made quickly and cheaply. A level 5 expert could make a batch of 4 at lowest cost in just 13 days. That is just a little over 3 days per a elixir and an average profit of just under 10sp a day.

As for the level of skill the NPC are likely to have? It takes only a few months to become trained at a job. It takes 3 to 5 years to get skilled at a job or expert level. Job listing have 10 to 15 years exp. to be the leader. So Master level. I would say most NPC are at least expert in one skill, now that skill is likely something like baking, farming, or fishing. But they can use that skill to earn coin.


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John Lynch 106 wrote:

I actually like it. I'm really over the whole magic mart setup of 3.5e and would much rather have a single feat the party can invest in and give them sufficient downtime to make their own magic items.

Most people don't. See how many threads against crafting we have already and how many people marked them favorite. I guess we just don't see any appeal on the fact that a single PC with crafting can craft anything. To be honest and I'm surprised that Mark Seifter in the last Friday podcast said they are not considering any changes to crafting. Maybe they are not reading the forums?

I'd very much rather have crafting specialization: dwarven blacksmith that knows how to forge armors and swords, the ranger that skin animals and makes arrows/bows/leather armors, the mage that crafts ring and wands, the druid that crafts potions instead of having a single PC that can do all of that and more. It really makes no sense for me for a single PC to ingest all the formulas. What if 2 PCs have crafting? Without specialization they just would end up being redundant. I'm pretty sure this will be a common problem especially in Pathfinder Society.

FInally the Item quality problem highlighted by my example is still a mystery..


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I am a really big fan of the new crafting system, and appreciate all of the work they have put into it. It's leaps and bounds better than the old method that was based on D&D 3rd Edition.

Just because you have your crafting skill trained does not make you an instant crafter. You still need to dedicate time building out your formula list. Because of this you will still have people who focus on certain aspects of their craft and make a name for themselves with it.

Additionally, you'll have people who even further focus on crafting and obtain the Specialty Crafting / Impeccable Craft to represent the true masters of an art. The level 15 Dwarven Blacksmith that focuses on Metal Items. The renowned woodworker that focuses on making bows that are works of art.

These people will likely have the recipes for powerful legendary magic weapons and armor focused around their craft. They will also be able to consider all of their successes critical successes when working with their specialty and have a much better chance of meeting the necessary DCs.

All in all, I think it definitely fits within the general lore of the world and spreads the investment out over several different areas rather than focusing the tax on skill points and feats.


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shroudb wrote:

you, as a player, don't even need to know, but as a DM it's a very, VERY handy table to keep open in front of you at all times.

This is kind of off topic, so I'm sorry about this, but I just found this reasoning very very wrong. I'm only writing this because the designers seem to share this notion that I find really weird, and with really impractical consequences in the way information is organized.

I need to know the dcs when I'm making a character. I need to know precisely how much of my scarce resources to allocate in each thing I'm going to try to do.
If my concept is of a great crafter, good swordsman and mediocre swimmer, for example, I need to know how to organize my skills/abilities/whatever so as to actually be a great crafter, good swordsman and mediocre swimmer. If, for example, a modest resource allocation on "swimming" can only get me to the level of "lousy swimmer", then maybe I don't want to build my pc that way, because I rather be a mediocre performer than a lousy swimmer. And all these decisions are made at character creation, so the dcs should not be in page 330 in the DM section.
Dcs being hidden in the middle of the book only accomplishes longer times when creating characters
/end rant, carry on


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I like the new crafting system.
For one, it can be an alternative to buying - max. 4 days, roll once, pay full price, that's it if you just want the item. If you want savings, it gets more complex but it starts that simple.
And with only one basic crafting feat plus speciality crafting you have versality while still having one primary use.


Agreed with gib, I really like that you can make some what level-relevant (level-3) items in just 1 day, and those of your level in only 4! You can still get discounts if you have downtime, but if you just need a specific thing in a reasonable timeframe? Yup, done.


Ghilteras wrote:
Most people don't. See how many threads against crafting we have already and how many people marked them favorite. I guess we just don't see any appeal on the fact that a single PC with crafting can craft anything. To be honest and I'm surprised that Mark Seifter in the last Friday podcast said they are not considering any changes to crafting. Maybe they are not reading the forums?

Maybe they have bigger fish to fry? Maybe they consider it a worthwhile simplification of the system that someone who wants to be a party crafter now doesn't need five feats to do it?

I'm perfectly fine with a single feat for this, personally. I wish the crafting rules were easier to follow, but an editing pass on the book and some examples of how one would create an item from end to end can address that.

It sounds like for PCs, aside from the flavor of making your own magic thing, the appeal will be that if you can get a formula, you'll have reliable access to things that you can't reliably find or buy. There's value in that. It won't be a huge money saver unless you have tons of downtime, but that's okay.


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John Lynch 106 wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
John Lynch 106 wrote:
Also if this kid has CHA 8 he's just outta luck with wanting a potion to work.
"Outta luck" is a weird way to spell "has a 55% chance of it working."
I forgot you can use stuff with no resonance. How many silver can a typical village family spare though on a chance to save their kid? 60? 90? 150?

As a real-life parent of a child who died, my answer is "All of it". Every penny. Everything I owned. I would sell everything I had and live in a cardboard box if I could have saved my daughter. If that wasn't enough I would have begged or stolen more, or got more jobs until I was working 24/7 until I dropped from exhaustion. Sadly, money couldn't have saved her, but if our world had healing magic, you bet I would have found the money I needed for whatever spell or potion would have saved her.

Further, if I ever know anybody, even a virtual stranger, with a child who will die but could be saved by money, I'll give them everything I can spare just to save them from suffering the loss of their child. Which is to say that any village would likely have people who feel the same way and would make sure the villager with a dying child could afford whatever they need. It literally "takes a village".

Liberty's Edge

I love how people hate Resonance so much they're even projecting it onto NPCs with no statblocks to try to push the wedge.

I'm 100% confident Resonance rules apply to PCs only, even IF we did have filler NPC stat-blocks for hypothetical Dwarf Children.

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