I want to play a person of mysterious and indistinct gender...

[PossibleCabbage]

... and I don't want to wait until level 2 (or be human, or have to be deceptive) to do it.

For reference the "Close Match" Feat on page 164, a General Skill Feat 1, requiring you to be trained in deception.

Quote:

You’re androgynous, look a bit older or younger than you are, or look like you might have an ancestry other than your own. Choose a different gender, an age other than your own, or an ancestry the same size as yours. You can disguise yourself as that sort of person without taking a penalty to your Deception check. At the GM’s discretion, if you are extremely small or big for your size, you can choose an ancestry of a size different from your own

So on base this is a fine feat, it basically lets you pick a specific different person and disguise yourself as them. But this kind of runs into the "10th Amendment Problem" wherein by specifying "you can do this with this particular rules mechanic" you imply that you cannot do it without that particular rules element.

So what if I want to play a character who is just androgynous in who they are (i.e. it's not a disguise), why can't I just do that? It seems especially relevant if I'm playing a character from an unusual species (there aren't rules in PF2 for them, but there will be) like an Astomoi (who, I will note, tend to be wretched at disguise as a species.)

So can we remove the line "you're androgynous" from the feat, so we don't imply you need the feat to be androgynous? We can just let the player explain how they are so good at portraying a fixed, but different-somehow person with their own reasoning.

[PossibleCabbage]

Proposed feat text revision-

Quote:

You are skilled at a kind of person slightly different from yourself. Choose a different gender, an age other than your own, or an ancestry of the same size as yourself. You can disguise yourself as that sort of person without taking a penalty to your Deception check. At the GM's discretion, if you are extremely small or big for your size, you can choose an ancestry of a size different from your own.

[trokll]

I think you would just say ambigous gender in your gender box and leave it at that. I see this feat meaning you are good at looking like someone who is the ancestry/sex/age. I dont think it means you cant be of undetermined gender

[James Jacobs]

This is an excellent bit of feedback. It's important for us to aim for feat descriptions that don't imply that choices like this rely upon things you can't select until 2nd level or higher.

You can and should be able to make choices about your character's gender from the very start, just as you do all other choices in that regard, without the implication of the rules saying otherwise.

Thanks again for pointing this out!

[Vic Wertz]

I will note that "Determine Your Character's Concept" includes this paragraph:

Playtest Rulebook wrote:

Of course, you can always build a concept from any aspect of a character’s details. You can use roleplaying to challenge not only the norms of Pathfinder’s fictional world, but also real-life societal norms. Your character might challenge binary gender notions, explore cultural identity, have a disability, have any sexual orientation, or any combination of these suggestions. Your character can live any life you see fit.

...and the actual rules regarding choosing your character's gender say this:

Playtest Rulebook wrote:

Note your character’s gender, if applicable. Characters of all genders are equally likely to become adventurers.

(Note "if applicable," and the use of "all genders" as opposed to "both genders.")

[Witch of Miracles]

Vic Wertz wrote:

I will note that "Determine Your Character's Concept" includes this paragraph:

Playtest Rulebook wrote:

Of course, you can always build a concept from any aspect of a character’s details. You can use roleplaying to challenge not only the norms of Pathfinder’s fictional world, but also real-life societal norms. Your character might challenge binary gender notions, explore cultural identity, have a disability, have any sexual orientation, or any combination of these suggestions. Your character can live any life you see fit.

...and the actual rules regarding choosing your character's gender say this:

Playtest Rulebook wrote:

Note your character’s gender, if applicable. Characters of all genders are equally likely to become adventurers.

(Note "if applicable," and the use of "all genders" as opposed to "both genders".)

Also worth noting that disguise only says you're disguising as something you are not. While that is pretty binary implying language on first pass, on a second pass, you could just take it to mean "looking like whatever you don't look like naturally." So if you're androgynous, appearing exceedingly masculine or feminine might require a disguise check, since that's attempting to disguise as not-androgynous.

That being said -- having played an androgynous character myself in the past -- I'd still prefer it if the feat were reworded. I do like that there's a feat that lets you be good at this, though.

[Sebastian Hirsch]

I like the fact that character creation is that open about the issue and "Note your character’s gender, if applicable." really should cover everyone.

[Draco18s]

James Jacobs wrote:

This is an excellent bit of feedback. It's important for us to aim for feat descriptions that don't imply that choices like this rely upon things you can't select until 2nd level or higher.

Take a look at GURPS some time. Gender (and things like it) are "0 point qualities." That is: you can have as many of them as you want and it costs nothing because there was no mechanical effect.

The only time it would cost something would be changing your race (which impacts how others treat you), like the Elf-poser and Orc-poser qualities from Shadowrun. The first was a Perk because everyone wants to be an elf, while the latter was a Flaw because orcs were brutish (why the hell would anyone want to be an orc?) and even then they were priced about as low as you could go (IIRC) at 5 points.

[Ediwir]

You guys realise that, unlike other systems, Path2’s background mechanics are modular enough that custom backgrounds can be built very easily and nothing forbids you from adding Close Match as the skill feat for a new background?

Several background give you at level1 feats that are normally higher level, like Merchant (Bargain Hunter) or that other one that grants Robust Recovery.
Just figure out what your character’s past led them to, apply an appropriate matching Lore skill and modifier, and that’s a background.

A finite numbers of backgrounds can hardly fit every possible character after all.