Colette Brunel wrote: shroudb wrote: I don't think it's a stretch to say that's fatiguing to ride a horse (at its normal speed and not slower) if you don't know how to ride. It IS a really strenuous activity. For 10 minutes? Really?
shroudb wrote: You can always ride it in half its speed without any problems (2 actions every 2 rounds is nonfatiguing) Then that is no faster than walking.
shroudb wrote: Also, no need for both AC and Ride, either one of them is enough by itself. Hence why I say if you lack both Ride and an animal companion.
To expound on the matter of fatigue:
Quote: You might find that a player wants to do something equivalent to spending 3 actions every 6 seconds, just like she would in combat. This is possible in combat only because combat lasts such a short time, and is not sustainable over the longer time frame of exploration. If someone tries to do this in exploration, it’s best to say no. If pressed, have the tactic cause fatigue after 2 minutes. An unarmored human (unarmored, because most medium armor imposes -5 speed, and heavy armor slaps on -10 speed) has speed 25 feet. Such a human can spend three actions per round to move 75 feet per round. That is 750 feet per minute, or 8.52 miles per hour, a decent run.
If an unarmored human spend 2 minutes moving 1,500 feet, at roughly 8.52 miles per hour, they are fatigued afterwards. They are not just winded; they are so fatigued that only 8 full hours of rest will be sufficient for recovery.
Deadly combat, on the other hand, is apparently far less strenuous. Yes, 10 minutes of riding, at a horse gallop speed, is a) impossible without some training and b) really, really tiring.
The main use of an animal being a beast of burden without some form of training is their much higher carrying capacity, not their speed.
As for the 8 hours thingy, I already commented that I could easily see that fatigue goes away after 1h of rest and not 8.
Running for 10minutes straight can easily result in an hour rest.
Thanks for the explanations, shroudb. I really like how you've used the system. And it is much easier to think about in terms of actions/minute.
Overall, exploration mode is handy to keep everyone involved in the process of moving throughout the dungeon. Too often in PF1, exploration is treated as a brief pause between combats and largely glossed over. Using minute "rounds" in exploration mode can help me as a GM pace exploration and dole out descriptive text in larger areas over time instead of overloading players by describing everything all at once.
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shroudb wrote:
Yes, 10 minutes of riding, at a horse gallop speed, is a) impossible without some training and b) really, really tiring.
The main use of an animal being a beast of burden without some form of training is their much higher carrying capacity, not their speed.
As for the 8 hours thingy, I already commented that I could easily see that fatigue goes away after 1h of rest and not 8.
Running for...
I have resisted posting in the playtest forum since I have read enough that I have no interest at all in this version of the game. I will however bite on this comment...
Speaking as someone who grew up working with horses under saddle and harness, who has worked cattle from horseback in the American southwest, who has done outfitting (horse packing) into wilderness areas, and who's longest day in the saddle has been 14 hours, this is horribly inaccurate. So that we can be speaking in the same terms, the basic gaits I will be referring to (not an exhaustive list from slow to fast) are walk, trot, canter, gallop. Gallop is not something you use to travel unless:
a) you are fleeing something,
b) you are pursuing something and intend to catch it fast,
c) you are only going a short distance and the terrain is such that you don't expect any accidents/injury to your horse, or
d) you don't care if you kill your horse.
If you do care about whether or not your horse survives for a while, you will mostly be traveling at a walk or trot. The trot is actually the hardest gait for new riders to manage, because it is generally the roughest. While this can vary from horse to horse, you are talking about the difference between a very sharp up and down motion (trot) and more of a rocking horse motion that is much more easy to move with (canter/gallop). The only real difference between the canter and gallop is the speed, amount of energy spent by your mount, and how long they can be maintained. No, it is not fatiguing for the rider. If it was, the pony express could have never existed, and that was a service that was based on riding a horse to it's limits for 20 miles and then swapping to another mount.
Basically, the whole galloping thing is something you will rely on if you are basing your game on movies. I prefer games that are more grounded in "reality" with abnormal things only being possible with magic. If I remember correctly, I once read that the US Cavalry used to purchase mounts that were supposed to be able to sustain 70 miles of travel per day. Keep in mind that they can't be traveling to eat, you can only carry a certain amount of grain (high energy food) with you, and they also need rest that can't be taken while they are foraging for food. That limits the amount of time that can be spent each day covering ground if you are traveling a long distance. If you are only going for a day or 2, you could certainly push harder. Of course, if you prefer a game that has more of a movie or video game flavor, then none of this matters.
One thing I would like to point out about pack animals is that (in the case of horses at least), they can't carry packs that weigh as much as a rider. A rider will move with the motion of the animal making motion easier. A pack is dead weight that will not move with the animal at all, and therefore takes more effort over the course of a day. In packing, we usually tried for packs that were 100-120 lbs. (not counting the packsaddle weight).
Kraynic wrote: shroudb wrote:
Yes, 10 minutes of riding, at a horse gallop speed, is a) impossible without some training and b) really, really tiring.
The main use of an animal being a beast of burden without some form of training is their much higher carrying capacity, not their speed.
As for the 8 hours thingy, I already commented that I could easily see that fatigue goes away after 1h of rest and not 8.
Running for...
I have resisted posting in the playtest forum since I have read enough that I have no interest at all in this version of the game. I will however bite on this comment...
Speaking as someone who grew up working with horses under saddle and harness, who has worked cattle from horseback in the American southwest, who has done outfitting (horse packing) into wilderness areas, and who's longest day in the saddle has been 14 hours, this is horribly inaccurate. So that we can be speaking in the same terms, the basic gaits I will be referring to (not an exhaustive list from slow to fast) are walk, trot, canter, gallop. Gallop is not something you use to travel unless:
a) you are fleeing something,
b) you are pursuing something and intend to catch it fast,
c) you are only going a short distance and the terrain is such that you don't expect any accidents/injury to your horse, or
d) you don't care if you kill your horse.
If you do care about whether or not your horse survives for a while, you will mostly be traveling at a walk or trot. The trot is actually the hardest gait for new riders to manage, because it is generally the roughest. While this can vary from horse to horse, you are talking about the difference between a very sharp up and down motion (trot) and more of a rocking horse motion that is much more easy to move with (canter/gallop). The only real difference between the canter and gallop is the speed, amount of energy spent by your mount, and how long they can be maintained. No, it is not fatiguing for the rider. If it was, the pony express could have never... You have worked your whole life with horses, so it might seem easier to you.
I have rode horses about 10 times in my life, when there were still around in my grandpa's village.
First times, when they were led for me (human walking speed), it was super relaxing and fun.
When I tried by myself, going a bit faster, I was sore the whole next day after less than half an hour.
Now, I don't know the English words (not my 1st language) for horse speeds, but I can assure you I was nowhere near "running" with the horse.
The normal villagers as well, who actually knew how to ride, rarely made the horses go fast. They usually rode them slowly to the fields, then loaded whatever they loaded, and then walked by them back.
Not to get stuck up on horse Speeds, but I would think the same logic goes for horses as for humans. Their travel Speed is calculated by them doing one Stride every six seconds, e.g. walking. Their base Speed is just higher than a humans because they are big animals whose Walking Speed is higher than an average humans.
I am happy that we have found some common ground regarding the harshness of the fatiguing condition. And it's good to hear that this Guidelines are helpful for some People. So let's get some more playtesting going on in part 2 and see what other People have to say as well.
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I agree.
Imo, the system works, as a system. It needs some adjustments in fatigue timers (20mins to fatigue, 1h rests should be perfect I think), but as a tool for the GM it's really helpful.
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Part of my experience as an outfitter included taking people that had little to no experience with horses into the wilderness on horseback. Generally a 10 minute break after 2 hours was plenty. A little muscle soreness isn't going to keep someone from being carried along by a mount. It will be less comfortable, but nothing that will force you to stop for an hour to recover.
To put this in game perspective:
If you do not have the riding feat, you can't ride more than 10 minutes without being fatigued with requires an hour of rest to recover from, and will have penalties from being fatigued until you take that rest time.
On the other hand, having an arrow in your gut will not slow you down or give you penalties of any kind. Someone trained to apply bandages can make all discomfort go away in 10 minutes.
I don't think this makes any sense at all.
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shroudb wrote: The shadowing example was actually not good.
This is because our rogue assumed that the target was keeping an eye out for the party, which he wasn't due to a very good previous deception roll.
So, IF the target was keeping an eye out, (seek alongside his sneak) his speed would be even lower, allowing "normal" shadowing even without the rogue having quick sneak.
so the best anti-shadowing tactic is to not care at all and simply wander during 15 minutes?
"I think there's someone shadowing us...
- OK, let's not look around and just walk for a while."
Gaterie wrote: shroudb wrote: The shadowing example was actually not good.
This is because our rogue assumed that the target was keeping an eye out for the party, which he wasn't due to a very good previous deception roll.
So, IF the target was keeping an eye out, (seek alongside his sneak) his speed would be even lower, allowing "normal" shadowing even without the rogue having quick sneak.
so the best anti-shadowing tactic is to not care at all and simply wander during 15 minutes?
"I think there's someone shadowing us...
- OK, let's not look around and just walk for a while."
How do you even reach thus conclusion?
For starters, if you don't try to hide, I don't need to try to spot you.
Secondly, if you don't try to fund me, I don't have to hide, but even if I hide, it's easy to sneak at high speeds, there's plenty of support for that.
shroudb wrote: For starters, if you don't try to hide, I don't need to try to spot you.
Secondly, if you don't try to fund me, I don't have to hide
Wait; what? O_O
So when I don't hide, you don't have to search me; but when you're the one not hiding, I'm the one who must try to find you?
...
That doesn't make any sense. But OK, let's assume you're right. Let's reverse the situation: let's assume you are wandering and I'm shadowing you. How do I do?
As you said, if I don't try to hide, you don't need to try to spot me; hence I have to hide otherwise you spot me. And as you said, if I don't try to find you, you don't even have to hide, so I must search you. Hence I need to sneak, search, and since I'm slower than you (sneaking is half speed) I have to sneak again. So I become fatigued after 2 minutes? Just because you're wandering?
I can see how easy it is for you to follow me when I'm not paying attention, but how does the reverse situation works?
Gaterie wrote: shroudb wrote: For starters, if you don't try to hide, I don't need to try to spot you.
Secondly, if you don't try to fund me, I don't have to hide
Wait; what? O_O
So when I don't hide, you don't have to search me; but when you're the one not hiding, I'm the one who must try to find you?
...
That doesn't make any sense. But OK, let's assume you're right. Let's reverse the situation: let's assume you are wandering and I'm shadowing you. How do I do?
As you said, if I don't try to hide, you don't need to try to spot me; hence I have to hide otherwise you spot me. And as you said, if I don't try to find you, you don't even have to hide, so I must search you. Hence I need to sneak, search, and since I'm slower than you (sneaking is half speed) I have to sneak again. So I become fatigued after 2 minutes? Just because you're wandering?
I can see how easy it is for you to follow me when I'm not paying attention, but how does the reverse situation works?
It's much simpler :
If you're just strolling in the city, I can easily follow you, anybody can. There's still a chance to see me, that's the passive perception.
If you hide I need to seek though, if I hide you need to seek.
If you're hiding, and SIMULTANEOUSLY seeking (I. E. Keeping up the sneak speed instead of stopping, looking around, continuing) the other needs to do the same.
Try to imagine a shadowing scene, ANY shadowing scene, and you'll notice that the normal thing to do, when you think you're followed, is usually stop and search, not dart from corner to corner twisting your head to do so.
Finally, the thing people keep missing, is that you can do all that, without fatigue, but simply slower (1 round seek, 1 round seek+sneak, ad infinity)
It really is simple.
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shroudb wrote: It's much simpler :
If you're just strolling in the city, I can easily follow you, anybody can. There's still a chance to see me, that's the passive perception.
Can you quote the relevant rule (with page number)?
I didn't see anything about having to roll Per to see someone who doesn't hide. As far as I know, not hiding = being seen. I can't even determine what DC I should use to detect someone who's not hiding.
Wandering is full-speed. Sneaking is half speed. Double-sneaking is fatiguing. Wandering auto-wins vs sneaking after 10 minutes. Is this so hard to understand?
Gaterie wrote: shroudb wrote: It's much simpler :
If you're just strolling in the city, I can easily follow you, anybody can. There's still a chance to see me, that's the passive perception.
Can you quote the relevant rule (with page number)?
I didn't see anything about having to roll Per to see someone who doesn't hide. As far as I know, not hiding = being seen. I can't even determine what DC I should use to detect someone who's not hiding.
Wandering is full-speed. Sneaking is half speed. Double-sneaking is fatiguing. Wandering auto-wins vs sneaking after 10 minutes. Is this so hard to understand?
Is shadowing really so hard to understand for people?
You wander in a city, abundant concealment present due to normal traffic.
If you don't try to hide and someone is specifically looking at you, you're seen.
If someone is following you, sure, you can see that there's a person behind you. In fact there are dozens of people around you at any given point of time.
Without seek, or investigation, or something, you just fail to notice that there's a persistent guy keeping up with you.
On the other hand, if you're cautious, and keep looking intently and detailed, exactly who's around you (seek action, half speed) then you'll notice the guy.
Now, if the guy is actually sneaking, you need to beat his sneak with your perception.
If you're also sneaking, then you either move at 1/4 of speed (seek/sneak+seek routine) or you're moving for a limited time on 1/2 speed (sneak+seek routune)
The exact same options apply to the pursuer.
Edit:
As far as following someone on an empty street without him noticing you, then yes, your sneak speed needs to be at least equal to his walking speed. What's weird about that?
Edit2:
Your problem isn't even with the exploration system.
You argue that the problem is that double sneak is fatiguing, but you fail to realise, that if double sneak was "normal", double stride would be equally normal. If in exploration mode you had 3 actions to do 3ple sneak, 3ple stride would be equally normal. And etc.
Basically, you think that without any investment, you should sneak as fast as one walks.
This has nothing to do with exploration mode. Is that so hard to understand?
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Oh, good grief. As it turns out, all six of my parties so far had been using the Searching tactic incorrectly... and the correct rule actually screws over parties significantly. According to page 331:
Quote: If more than one character is searching, give the group a chance to detect anything that’s hidden, using the skill bonus of the character with the highest bonus for whatever is hardest to notice. This rule, buried away in the GM section and completely out-of-sight from helpless players, ensures that there is no point in having anything but the highest-Perception character use Searching. It also gives them only one shot at detecting anything as important as a trap or something similar.
Given that Sneaking is one of those "either the entire party is doing it, or no one is doing it" exploration tactics as per the encounter guidelines in In Pale Mountain's Shadow and The Rose Street Revenge, and that Investigating will potentially drown characters in erroneous knowledge due to critical failures, will this not mean that the rest of the party is often stuck twiddling thumbs?
The character with the highest Perception uses Searching, someone with detect magic uses that, someone with good Intelligence and/or Wisdom uses Investigating for the Recall Knowledge skills they have a good chance at avoiding erroneous knowledge for, someone with higher Stealth than Perception uses Sneaking solely to use Stealth for initiative and less to actually hide amidst the noisy party... and Strength-based martials with their armor check penalties just twiddle their thumbs and Wander? Or Defend, if they use shields for some misguided reason.
Also, during the Rose Street Revenge, my players in both parties were grousing and complaining over how Carousing, Conversing, and Looking Out were all separate tactics. If characters want to discover any deceptions, they have to remain silent throughout a conversation, which is rather off-putting to many. And if they try to use Conversing and Looking Out each turn, if the conversation drags out for ten minutes or more, they are fatigued and must spend 8 hours to recover, as if the character is so socially anxious that simultaneously talking to people and reading people is just that exhausting.
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shroudb wrote: Your problem isn't even with the exploration system. My problem is that the exploration rules can't even handle a simple situation like "someone walks while someone else sneakily follows him" (or "chat with someone while walking", as explained by Colette). When a rule is worse than no rule, the rule is just a waste of space in the book and in my mind.
Now, let's assume I use the following awesome exploration tactic (doable by any real-world grown-up adult): "I walk, and every ~2 minutes or so, I start looking around during ~10 seconds - while still walking". If you need technical details, you may assume I Stride during 1d10+14 rounds, then I Stride and Seek during 1d3 rounds, then I Stride during 1d10+14 rounds, etc.
How can you follow me without being noticed? Do you need a feat for that? How many feats does a Pathfinder character need to be a fully-functional grown-up adult?
Hint: "prepare an action to hide" costs 2 actions; doing so while walking makes you fatigued after 2 minutes.
Gaterie wrote: shroudb wrote: Your problem isn't even with the exploration system. My problem is that the exploration rules can't even handle a simple situation like "someone walks while someone else sneakily follows him". When a rule is worse than no rule, the rule is just a waste of space in the book and in my mind.
Now, let's assume I use the following awesome exploration tactic (doable by any real-world grown-up adult): "I walk, and every ~2 minutes or so, I start looking around during ~10 seconds - while still walking". If you need technical details, you may assume I Stride during 1d10+14 rounds, then I Stride and Seek during 1d3 rounds, then I Stride during 1d10+14 rounds, etc.
How can you follow me without being noticed? Do you need a feat for that? How many feats does a Pathfinder character need to be a fully-functional grown-up adult?
Hint: "prepare an action to hide" costs 2 actions; doing so while walking makes you fatigued after 2 minutes.
that was the case forever.
if you sneak slower than the other walks how do you expect to follow him?
that never worked in any edition of any rpg.
that's simply impossible. and it has nothing to do with exploration mode.
i can put you in encounter mode and you STILL won't be able to follow someone walking if you sneak slower than his walk.
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Battelmaps aren't large enough to allow for a 1-minute walk in the street; this kind of challenge can't be done using the encounter mode. It was resolved using a lot of hand-waving and it worked.
Now there's a subsystem to handle this, this subsystem uses a lots of page and takes a lot of time to understand, and this subsystem isn't as good as hand-waving. What's the point of this subsystem again? Add complexity for no gain? Pretend the game is more elaborate than its competitor because the page count is higher - the fact those pages are filled with ludicrous and unusable subsystems isn't the point?
Gaterie wrote: Battelmaps aren't large enough to allow for a 1-minute walk in the street; this kind of challenge can't be done using the encounter mode. It was resolved using a lot of hand-waving and it worked.
Now there's a subsystem to handle this, this subsystem uses a lots of page and takes a lot of time to understand, and this subsystem isn't as good as hand-waving. What's the point of this subsystem again? Add complexity for no gain?
you're handwaving is explicitly "you can sneak as fast as you walk"
that's giving everyone a level 7 master stealth skill feat for free.
again, nothing to do with exploration mode. again your issue is "a character sneaking at 15feet/time unit is slower than a character walking at 30ft/time unit" (which is.... well obvious.)
if you want to give everyone that feat for free, go ahead and do so.
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shroudb wrote: that's giving everyone a level 7 master stealth skill feat for free. Again, how many feats does a Pathfinder character need to be a fully-functional grown-up adult?
Gaterie wrote: shroudb wrote: that's giving everyone a level 7 master stealth skill feat for free. Again, how many feats does a Pathfinder character need to be a fully-functional grown-up adult?
while i do agree that some of the feats (and especially some of the skill feats) are redundant and should be baseline uses of the skills.
sneaking at moving speed is not one of them (again, imo)
sneaking should be slower than walking since you take a lot of extra precautions to move and step (as well as concealing your footstep sounds and such) and you are limited to the places you dart from and to.
shroudb wrote: if you want to give everyone that feat for free, go ahead and do so. WOW! That's a lot of assumptions you're making here. Like the fact I'll play Path 2 as it is now.
Right now it's less work to create a system from scratch, than house-rule Path 2 into something playable. And there are other games around that don't require houserule to be playable and even enjoyable.
shroudb wrote: Gaterie wrote: shroudb wrote: that's giving everyone a level 7 master stealth skill feat for free. Again, how many feats does a Pathfinder character need to be a fully-functional grown-up adult?
while i do agree that some of the feats (and especially some of the skill feats) are redundant and should be baseline uses of the skills.
sneaking at moving speed is not one of them (again, imo)
sneaking should be slower than walking since you take a lot of extra precautions to move and step (as well as concealing your footstep sounds and such) and you are limited to the places you dart from and to. Yet, it is possible for any grown-up adult to shadow someone who's suspicious and look around from time to time. Except in Path 2, where there's a subsytem saying explicitly "no it's totally impossible, you have to be at least level 7 and spend feat for that lol".
Anyway at level 7, it is basically impossible for the PC to shadow anyone worth it. The max stealth is +13, every level 7 monster has a Perception between +13 and +15.
The level 7 Cleric of Callistria NPC has somehow Per +13 (and stealth +10 because why not?). Now let's look at the stealth rules: "The GM rolls your Stealth check in secret and compares the result to the Perception DCs of creatures that you were sensed or unseen by at the start of your movement". So each round, you have to succeed a DC 23 check (with your fully optimized +13 Stealth). What does happen if you fail 1 roll? "Failure: You’re seen by the creature throughout your movement and remain so. If you’re invisible and were sensed by the creature, you’re still sensed throughout your movement and remain sensed, but you aren’t seen." Being seen is a result of the failure of your check - the Cleric of Callistria doesn't have to search for you. If the Cleric was Searching in the right direction, she would be allowed a Per check against your stealth DC of 23 as per the Seek rule - on top of seeing you automatically if you roll less than 23 on Stealth as per the Sneak rule.
At level 7, there's no way you can stay undetected against any level 7 NPC or monster during 1 minute.
So maybe you should follow an easier target? Like the level 5 Alchemical renegade? Speed 35 (faster than you), Per +10, Stealth +13 because why not. If you're lucky you may shadow him 1 minute, there's no way you can do it 2 minutes.
So at level 7 maybe you can shadow a level 3 NPC that isn't a mercenary scout - although the Cleric of rovagug is quite hard to shadow, you have 20% chance every round of being seen, but maybe a generous DM may give you a +4 circumstance bonus. Why bother anyway? He's not an encounter worth mentioning, just KO him and torture him until he gives you the information you need.
So there's some level 7 skill feat allowing to do stuff any grown-up adult can do (like shadow someone), but at that level an optimized skill is barely able to compete with a level 5 random monster or NPC. The more you grow in level and the worse it is: every opponent's skill are better than your fully-optimized skills, and you don't have many optimized skills to begin with. This is how Path 2 is designed.
Conclusion: it's never possible to shadow anyone, either you don't have the necessary feat either your skills can't be high enough, that's how the exploration mode and the skill system work. Do you understand why i said you shouldn't assume I'll play the game?
Gaterie wrote: shroudb wrote: if you want to give everyone that feat for free, go ahead and do so. WOW! That's a lot of assumptions you're making here. Like the fact I'll play Path 2 as it is now.
Right now it's less work to create a system from scratch, than house-rule Path 2 into something playable. And there are other games around that don't require houserule to be playable and even enjoyable.
shroudb wrote: Gaterie wrote: shroudb wrote: that's giving everyone a level 7 master stealth skill feat for free. Again, how many feats does a Pathfinder character need to be a fully-functional grown-up adult?
while i do agree that some of the feats (and especially some of the skill feats) are redundant and should be baseline uses of the skills.
sneaking at moving speed is not one of them (again, imo)
sneaking should be slower than walking since you take a lot of extra precautions to move and step (as well as concealing your footstep sounds and such) and you are limited to the places you dart from and to. Yet, it is possible for any grown-up adult to shadow someone who's suspicious and look around from time to time. Except in Path 2, where there's a subsytem saying explicitly "no it's totally impossible, you have to be at least level 7 and spend feat for that lol".
Anyway at level 7, it is basically impossible for the PC to shadow anyone worth it. The max stealth is +13, every level 7 monster has a Perception between +13 and +15.
The level 7 Cleric of Callistria NPC has somehow Per +13 (and stealth +10 because why not?). Now let's look at the stealth rules: "The GM rolls your Stealth check in secret and compares the result to the Perception DCs of creatures that you were sensed or unseen by at the start of your movement". So each round, you have to succeed a DC 23 check (with your fully optimized +13 Stealth). What does happen if you fail 1 roll? "Failure: You’re seen by the creature throughout your movement and remain so. If you’re invisible and were... you keep confusing 2 things, sneaking behind someone and shadowing.
what you describe (following someone) doesn't need stealth, just needs the person to not be suspicious of you and not knowing you. that's usually how tailing is done. Sneaking means to not be seen, at all, by him.
Monster skill DCs are insane. We know that. The developers know that. Their stats use an erroneous previous skill tier system and that gives them extra +2 or higher to skills.
btw, since you said that in pf1 you handwave it, you already houserule it there, since in pf1 too, sneak is half speed to walk.
also, who cares if you play the edition or not. you're in this editions forums, talking about it's rules.
obviously, you're set your mind that it's badwrongfun to sneak slower than normal speed, that's your issue, not the edition's issue, but since you're dead set, there's no helping it.
let's call it a day and be done.
shroudb wrote: you're set your mind that it's badwrongfun to sneak slower than normal speed No. Stop lying/strawmaning please.
Quote: also, who cares if you play the edition or not. you're in this editions forums, talking about it's rules. O_O
Did i do anything else than talking about this edition's rules? You're the one talking about how it was before.
Gaterie wrote: shroudb wrote: you're set your mind that it's badwrongfun to sneak slower than normal speed No. Stop lying/strawmaning please.
Quote: also, who cares if you play the edition or not. you're in this editions forums, talking about it's rules. O_O
Did i do anything else than talking about this edition's rules? You're the one talking about how it was before. I'll give you your one last answer before ignoring you:
Your WHOLE argument is that it's slower to sneak than to walk.
My response is the exact OPPOSITE of "strawman argument" (you should probably read what that is btw), but I guess you like to throw big words and think that that somehow validates your nonsense.
bye
shroudb wrote: I'll give you your one last answer before ignoring you: Explain me again, why should I care?
Quote: My response is the exact OPPOSITE of "strawman argument" (you should probably read what that is btw), but I guess you like to throw big words and think that that somehow validates your nonsense. Let me quote you: "you're set your mind that it's badwrongfun to sneak slower than normal speed". I've never written anything like this. That's the exact definition of a strawman: you invent a new argument and pretend that's what I said.
At the moment you start strawmaning, there's no point to answer any of your arguments - you will change my answer anyway, why bother? And again, I don't know why I should care if some random strawmaning internet dude ignores me. Congratulation, using strawman you've won the internet.
shroudb wrote: you keep confusing 2 things, sneaking behind someone and shadowing.
what you describe (following someone) doesn't need stealth, just needs the person to not be suspicious of you and not knowing you. that's usually how tailing is done. Sneaking means to not be seen, at all, by him.
Say you're tailing someone. They start off not suspicious of you, going about their day. They're not blind though, and presumably are doing things that involve needing to be specific places, so they're looking around to make sure they don't miss their goal. They see you, but (assuming you're not someone they personally know) they pay you no mind and continue on.
Bit later, you're still tailing them. They look around again, notice you're still right there. They shrug, surely it's just coincidence.
Bit later again, still tailing them. They look around again. This exact same person is still behind them for the third time, likely the exact same distance behind them. At this point, any sane person is probably going to be suspicious, and someone doing something shady (which is the likely reason a Hero is tailing them) is going to be on full alert. Chances are, now they are actively searching, if not turning around and starting a fight.
There are a couple ways around this, based on the fiction I've read.
1) Every so often pause to make a disguise check. This is going to take Expert Deception and a skill feat in PF2e to do at a reasonable speed, but then it does take some training to do it effectively so whatevs.
2) Take a route out of the target's sight. A common example would be roof-running. IRL, this works awesomely, people tend to not look up, and the brain tends to ignore things it doesn't expect to be there (like a person on the rooftops) even if you are glimpsed. Unfortunately, Pathfinder gives everyone a full sphere of awareness at every moment unless the GM fiats it away, and since they might as well be staring right at you if anything you're more likely to be noted... unless you use the Sneaking tactic. Which slows you to half speed. A skilled enough roof runner can move over the roof tops at the same speed they can move on the ground, but because of the mechanics of PF2e it just... doesn't work right without a lot of GM Fiat.
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Shinigami02 wrote:
2) Take a route out of the target's sight. A common example would be roof-running. IRL, this works awesomely, people tend to not look up, and the brain tends to ignore things it doesn't expect to be there (like a person on the rooftops) even if you are glimpsed. Unfortunately, Pathfinder gives everyone a full sphere of awareness at every moment unless the GM fiats it away, and since they might as well be staring right at you if anything you're more likely to be noted... unless you use the...
well, we start off with saying that most things in pf universe are superhuman by default.
literally, every single breathing thing is ambidextrous and has 360degree vision (among many, many, other ridiculous things we naturally assume every creature/player can do by default).
so, in order to make things "work" there's "circumstance" bonus, that's exactly a bonus awarded (either by abilities or by the one running the world (gm)) that's SUPPOSSED to emulate bonuses due to... circumstances.
your target getting a circumstance penalty to see you because you're in the roof is not "gm fiat", it's literally the gm doing his job right*. Same thing with looking behind your back while moving forward and etc.
as for actually emulating stuff through abilities, there are abilities to keep up with people while you're stealthed, there are abilities to jump around on the roofs faster than he walks, and there are even abilities to disguise yourself in record time.
all those are "mundane" skills that one can pick up. all those are suppossed to show the character's "growth" in a specific field he's trained at. like stealthing, shadowing, or jumping.
*I want to take this opportunity to adress this issue even further, because it's actually a quite detrimental issue for the rpg genre, and especially PF.
We keep complaining (rightfully so) that things that should be "baseline" to our abilities and our skills, are getting shoved into "feats". Making the base skills/abilities/strikes lose more and more value as supplements get published shoehorning perfectly reasonable uses into "feats".
And yet, when someone says a perfectly reasonable thing like "my character is in the roof so he should have a bonus" we suddenly jump into "where does it says so", "this is gm fiat", "how can you do that", "what ability is that" and etc.
We can't have it both ways.
We can either have (give) GM freedom to arbitate for us what we can and can't do, or we can "feats" doing the GMs work for us at the price of buying them.
It's reasonable that we can't have in writing every single thing someone can think of doing. That would make a CRB of around 1 million pages. So, we either let the GM decide what we can and can't do, or use the very, very small percentage of our abilities that's actually written or covered by rules.
"GM fiat" is being thrown around like it's a BAD thing around here. well.. GM fiat is a GOOD thing. It actually means that you don't have to buy a feat in order to breathe, to tie your shoe, or to stab with the pointy edge or... to get a circumstance bonus while on the roofs.
shroudb wrote: *I want to take this opportunity to adress this issue even further, because it's actually a quite detrimental issue for the rpg genre, and especially PF.
We keep complaining (rightfully so) that things that should be "baseline" to our abilities and our skills, are getting shoved into "feats". Making the base skills/abilities/strikes lose more and more value as supplements get published shoehorning perfectly reasonable uses into "feats".
And yet, when someone says a perfectly reasonable thing like "my character is in the roof so he should have a bonus" we suddenly jump into "where does it says so", "this is gm fiat", "how can you do that", "what ability is that" and etc.
We can't have it both ways.
We can either have (give) GM freedom to arbitate for us what we can and can't do, or we can "feats" doing the GMs work for us at the price of buying them.
It's reasonable that we can't have in writing every single thing someone can think of doing. That would make a CRB of around 1 million pages. So, we either let the GM decide what we can and can't do, or use the very, very small percentage of our abilities that's actually written or covered by rules.
"GM fiat" is being thrown around like it's a BAD thing around here. well.. GM fiat is a GOOD thing. It actually means that you don't have to buy a feat in order to breathe, to tie your shoe, or to stab with the pointy edge or... to get a circumstance bonus while on the roofs.
Just to note here, not everyone has the advantage of a GM that will apply such bonuses, and I'm not just talking PFS. In my group GMs are very stingy with bonuses, to the point that they might as well be a non-entity... unless it's something spelled out in the book. So just assuming "oh, doing that will get you a circumstance bonus that'll make everything easier" when no such thing is said anywhere really doesn't help in my case.
Of course, that's a bit beside the point, because a circumstance bonus doesn't help... unless a circumstance bonus to speed is a thing I've just completely missed to this point. Because either you're moving at full speed to keep pace with them, in which case that full sphere of awareness kicks in and they spot you with no check involved (Circumstance bonus doesn't help if there's nothing to apply it to) or you're doing the sneaking thing which means you're moving slower and are quickly out-paced.
If shadowing someone is not about sneaking, but about pretending you're a random bystander, shouldn't it be a Deception check?
So we're back at step one: every round you Stride and you use one action for Deception, you're fatigued after 10 minutes.
And then there are feats. Because everything is feat. "Look like an innocent bystander" isn't listed as a Deception action, I guess you need a feat for that? And one or two more feats to do that while moving at full speed.
And then there's the über-legendary Perception of every NPC and monster. If your Deception is optimized, then your Stealth isn't - you can't possibly have enough +skill items for both. At the moment you can't pretend you're a random bystander (eg the target enters a deserted alley), you're spotted.
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Shinigami02 wrote: shroudb wrote: *I want to take this opportunity to adress this issue even further, because it's actually a quite detrimental issue for the rpg genre, and especially PF.
We keep complaining (rightfully so) that things that should be "baseline" to our abilities and our skills, are getting shoved into "feats". Making the base skills/abilities/strikes lose more and more value as supplements get published shoehorning perfectly reasonable uses into "feats".
And yet, when someone says a perfectly reasonable thing like "my character is in the roof so he should have a bonus" we suddenly jump into "where does it says so", "this is gm fiat", "how can you do that", "what ability is that" and etc.
We can't have it both ways.
We can either have (give) GM freedom to arbitate for us what we can and can't do, or we can "feats" doing the GMs work for us at the price of buying them.
It's reasonable that we can't have in writing every single thing someone can think of doing. That would make a CRB of around 1 million pages. So, we either let the GM decide what we can and can't do, or use the very, very small percentage of our abilities that's actually written or covered by rules.
"GM fiat" is being thrown around like it's a BAD thing around here. well.. GM fiat is a GOOD thing. It actually means that you don't have to buy a feat in order to breathe, to tie your shoe, or to stab with the pointy edge or... to get a circumstance bonus while on the roofs.
Just to note here, not everyone has the advantage of a GM that will apply such bonuses, and I'm not just talking PFS. In my group GMs are very stingy with bonuses, to the point that they might as well be a non-entity... unless it's something spelled out in the book. So just assuming "oh, doing that will get you a circumstance bonus that'll make everything easier" when no such thing is said anywhere really doesn't help in my case.
Of course, that's a bit beside the point, because a circumstance bonus doesn't help... unless a circumstance bonus... if you're not happy with your GM, or if your GM doesn't use the part of the book that specifically says that circumstance bonus comes from circumstances, then it's up to you to find another. That's not the system's fault.
again, we can't (resonably) create a book that lists each and every action and situation. That's why GMs exists in the firsts place.
Players can say whatever, and it's the gm's job to award a bonus or a penalty to it based on what's happenning.
In short, the gm isn't the "bad guy". He literally is the one running the world.
The same way that it's perfectly normal that if you sneak into someone's home in the night, chances are he's sleeping, it's perfectly normal for teh GM to rule what's a reasonable bonus/penalty/EFFECT that happens due to your actions, even if that's an autosuccess in something.
AnimatedPaper wrote: I had such high hopes for exploration mode too. I wanted it structured more like the 4e skill challenges. In that context, breaking these down to specific tactics and getting specific kinds of "hits" each round (you ARE investigating and searching at the same time, but this round you want a information reward, and next round you want to know whether or not the room has any secret doors or traps) might make some sense. Tying it to initiative seems less ideal. I think it maps well to The One Ring RPG's rules for journeys and roles. When you take a journey in TOR, the roles of Guide, Scout, Huntsman, and Look-out Man have to filled by one or more PCs. Unlike PF2, where an Exploration activity won't always be relevant, it's assumed that something bad will happen on the long journey through Mirkwood, and it's up to the PCs to do their best. Not rolling every hour or day, but maybe once or twice a journey, when the GM feels it would be appropriate in-game.
Getting a bit more constructive again - the main points I worry about are
1. the 10 minutes fatiguing rule. This is a weirdly arbitrary amount of time for a System that is mostly used for overland travel or other very Long term activities.
2. The guidance to Transfer Encounter Actions into comparable longer activities (not capitalised to avoid confusion with the game term). Searching something has no relation to looking around 2 out of 6 Actions in a strictly defined space. Trying to upscale from a balanced combat simulator to everyday activities does not work in any useful way.
The whole discussion about if and how shadowing works breaks down to "Roll Stealth vs his perception DC". Is anybody really going to forbid shadowing based on movement Speed reductions? The only alternative would be to have the character autosucceed, which feels equally wrong.
The same goes for the bizarre disconnect between the Encounter rules for riding vs Exploration rules. They make sense in a the combat Simulation of Encounter mode, where action economy is king - but trying to Transfer it into Encounter Tactics leads to bizarre results.
I still think Exploration Mode has it's place, but trying to link it directly into Encounter mode Actions will fail.
DerNils wrote: Getting a bit more constructive again - the main points I worry about are
1. the 10 minutes fatiguing rule. This is a weirdly arbitrary amount of time for a System that is mostly used for overland travel or other very Long term activities.
2. The guidance to Transfer Encounter Actions into comparable longer activities (not capitalised to avoid confusion with the game term). Searching something has no relation to looking around 2 out of 6 Actions in a strictly defined space. Trying to upscale from a balanced combat simulator to everyday activities does not work in any useful way.
The whole discussion about if and how shadowing works breaks down to "Roll Stealth vs his perception DC". Is anybody really going to forbid shadowing based on movement Speed reductions? The only alternative would be to have the character autosucceed, which feels equally wrong.
The same goes for the bizarre disconnect between the Encounter rules for riding vs Exploration rules. They make sense in a the combat Simulation of Encounter mode, where action economy is king - but trying to Transfer it into Encounter Tactics leads to bizarre results.
I still think Exploration Mode has it's place, but trying to link it directly into Encounter mode Actions will fail.
i agree that the fatiguing thing needs to be a bit better. The 10mins imo feel fine. It's the 8h rest that doesn't.
I mean, yeah, if you run for 10minutes, you may be tired, but after a short rest you should be on your feet again, not a full 8h rest.
(and to close the shadowing issue, yes, MOST gms I know would require more effort than "i roll stealth vs his perception" to shadow someone that moves at twice your speed, there's a reason you want fast scouts)
I would still love for them to give some nice examples of combined tactics like you brought up OR make the system work on different scales. E.g. one scale for dungeon crawl, one for social encounters and one for overland travel. 10 minute intervals are just not useful measurement steps for day long activities.
Things like forced March, scouting (sneak&seek) and looking for ambushes are so common that I would like them presented as ready made tactics.
Or they move travelling into the downtime mode (and rename this into something like long-term activities), which already scales on a daily basis.
One other point I am just wondering about - why is stealing a fatiguing tactic? Surely they do not expect the players to use 2 steal actions per turn. Is it supposed to be a combination of seek&steal?
sherlock1701 wrote: eddv wrote: engage in...social combats I find this phrasing amusing. Does winning initiative here mean you quickly speak before your opponent can? Can I leave a link here? It seems relevant... https://www.prequeladventure.com/2018/08/14473/
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