Tanglefoot bags are broken


Magic Items


So I ran into an issue when considering the tanglefoot bag for my alchemist. At first, I thought that it was too powerful, considering that on hit any creature regardless of size or strength entangles it for 1 minute, requiring 3 actions to remove.

But then I looked into the entangled condition and discover a whole new problem. All that entangling does is reduce speed by 10 ft, and gives a 25% chance of failure to certain action types. This effect is thoroughly underwhelming; unless the bag is throw at the maximum range, most of humanoid races can still close the distance to you and attack you unhindered. And even at maximum range, a tanglefoot bag won't stop an elf.

The entangled condition essentially does nothing. You're better off with liquid ice, since it at least does damage. I think that the entangled condition needs a major overhaul for it to make sense. In fact, I think a lot of the hindrance values need to be rethought.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

Note that entangled gives a 25% fail chance to basically anything with the manipulate trait. This includes the following actions:
- Interact (picking items up, opening doors, interacting with the world around you in any way)
- Dropping an Item
- Somatic Casting
- Material Casting

Effectively, almost all spellcasting gains a 25% fail chance.


so Tanglefoot is for slow and anti-Casters?

So Heavy armor dudes and Warlocks.

Remember Heavy Armor dude likely has only 5 movement speed after being hit. 25-10 Heavy Armor=15 -10 Bag=5 ft


Again, liquid ice is still a better tool against armored/slow enemies, since it slows on hit while still dealing damage. And a 25% failure chance is still not a very reliable way of interfering with casters. So it's situational, and not even all that useful in the applicable situations.

Entanglement should be an actual problem, not a minor inconvenience.


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It stacks with the liquid ice, and if I read it correctly it stops opening doors, activating the lever to the trap, drawing a weapon or potion, casting a spell...

Size small NPC trying to ring an alarm bell to get the guards? He's going to need twice as many move actions to get across the room, and could fail to get his hand off his own shirt. If you happen to use both, he now has to spend both actions just to get to the bell, and next turn still have a chance of failing to ring it (though failing a flat 5 check twice would be rather unfortunate).

I'm not saying it isn't possible to have it do more, in fact I'd like to see hampered 10 slow 1, but it's possible that could be an improved version. Alchemist feat maybe, make tanglefoot bombs that hamper 15 and slow 1 instead of normal? Or a few item levels higher for the stronger version.

A final version would be roots the target altogether, and slow 2. That basically reduces them to only being able to struggle to break free or take a swing at someone nearby. That's a save-or-suck though, so it would need to be handled at the appropriate...

Ah, now there's an idea.

Tanglefoot Bag Reflex DC15
Critical success: no effect
Success: hamper 5
Failure: hamper 10 slow 1
Critical failure: rooted and slow 2


Cellion wrote:

Note that entangled gives a 25% fail chance to basically anything with the manipulate trait. This includes the following actions:

- Interact (picking items up, opening doors, interacting with the world around you in any way)
- Dropping an Item
- Somatic Casting
- Material Casting

Effectively, almost all spellcasting gains a 25% fail chance.

If a spell has Somatic and Material components, does the caster need to succeed at 2 checks?

Also, it's 20%. A DC 5 check means you only fail on a 1-4.


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Paradozen wrote:
Cellion wrote:

Note that entangled gives a 25% fail chance to basically anything with the manipulate trait. This includes the following actions:

- Interact (picking items up, opening doors, interacting with the world around you in any way)
- Dropping an Item
- Somatic Casting
- Material Casting

Effectively, almost all spellcasting gains a 25% fail chance.

If a spell has Somatic and Material components, does the caster need to succeed at 2 checks?

Also, it's 20%. A DC 5 check means you only fail on a 1-4.

Yes, each action would be an individual check, so a somatic + material action spell would have a combined probability of failure of 36%.


Xenocrat wrote:


Yes, each action would be an individual check, so a somatic + material action spell would have a combined probability of failure of 36%.

It will probably be only one check for the spell. Entangle disrupts an activity which includes multi-action spells. The flat check will be for the entire activity rather than each action within the activity.

+++++++

I think that ability to disrupt reactions is going to be the interesting addition to the entangle condition. Reactive shield, AoO's, cleave, deflect arrow, retributive strike, divine grace, nimble dodge & etc will now have a 20% of failure when the user is entangled.

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