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[Curtailing teleportation] was actually a pretty big component of the adjustment on the outsiders. Also for situations like the pre Wrath of the Righteous Worldwound, with Wardstones protecting a perimeter from teleportation but not preventing physically crossing, the fiends, if they had unlimited planetary teleport, could just barely cross the line at some unguarded point and then go anywhere. There are other examples, but you basically have the gist. With their current setup, they can still absolutely teleport an entire army into your city, but it would need to be a mile away (where you might be able to notice it massing), and that would deny them their get-out-of-jail-free escape route if they did. So they have to think if they want to do that, or if they want to advance normally and keep the easy retreat. They might split the difference with cannon fodder 1 mile-ing in and the big guns, who expect to live to fight another day, saving their retreat, but then they can't strike...
Thank you very much for explaining Paizo's reasons for the change; it's always good to know "what were they thinking?" Of course, the same could be asked about the folks who wrote in planetary teleportation in the first place without thinking about the ramifications.
|Mark Seifter Designer|
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Mark Seifter wrote:[Curtailing teleportation] was actually a pretty big component of the adjustment on the outsiders. Also for situations like the pre Wrath of the Righteous Worldwound, with Wardstones protecting a perimeter from teleportation but not preventing physically crossing, the fiends, if they had unlimited planetary teleport, could just barely cross the line at some unguarded point and then go anywhere. There are other examples, but you basically have the gist. With their current setup, they can still absolutely teleport an entire army into your city, but it would need to be a mile away (where you might be able to notice it massing), and that would deny them their get-out-of-jail-free escape route if they did. So they have to think if they want to do that, or if they want to advance normally and keep the easy retreat. They might split the difference with cannon fodder 1 mile-ing in and the big guns, who expect to live to fight another day, saving their retreat, but then they can't strike...Thank you very much for explaining Paizo's reasons for the change; it's always good to know "what were they thinking?" Of course, the same could be asked about the folks who wrote in planetary teleportation in the first place without thinking about the ramifications.
Thought experimenting out demon army tactics and narrative consequences of monster abilities like that with Logan was one of the most amusing parts of working on the Playtestiary.
Mechagamera wrote:Interesting motivations, though I don't believe the function like per Core/Golarion norms.Rysky wrote:Xenocrat wrote:Rysky wrote:Arakhor wrote:Maybe fiends can still be head-canoned to perform a ritual to plane shift back to their home plane/layer, so that they're not totally bereft of travel options, not that that would matter for combat stats, of course.
I wouldn't doubt if a Plane Shift ability/Ritual is included in the Final.
Only a very tiny number of outsiders ever had Plane Shift in PF1, and this didn't include any of the top tier (non-demigod) fiends. If they get called to the Material Plane and don't go home when the spell released them they're stuck there unless banished or they find some other way home, like buying/extorting a Plane Shift out of a mortal caster.
I like the teleport nerfs, it never made sense to me that entire armies of outsiders could teleport in hundreds of thousands to various staging areas in the event of an invasion. It made planar invasions suicide missions, as anyone not on their home turf would have no way to retreat as infinite reinforcements arrived.
Ah, never really noticed that.
I always thought for demons (and demon lords) that the point was that you get to a place on the material plane, do enough damage/evil that the place gets a lot like the Abyss, and it gets absorbed by the Abyss, which means they go home, probably with an upgrade (promotion for demons, new magguffin for demon lords). Sure you have to beat up whoever is squatting in your level of the Abyss, but a) you have a new magguffin, so should be an easy fight, and b) as a demon lord, you like to fight anyway, so it is just icing on the cake.
Daemons don't really care where they are killing/destroying souls.
Devils, on the other hand, are probably sweating over who has stolen their spot back in Hell.....
Could be, it wouldn't be the first time I mixed up lore from different games. That being said, I don't know if I would buy the assumption that most fiends are in a big hurry to return to their outer planes when they have a whole world of soft squishy things to hurt or corrupt, and without that assumption, the need for plane shift is pretty minimal (and could be covered by the odd magic item if a demon was stealing something for a demon lord and had to go back quickly).
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Yeah! A GM I played with flavored it as chlorine gas and had everything being bleached before o.O
Might pick this back up today since I didn’t get to on Friday, if not I’ll be doing again tomorrow morning at work ^w^
Lol, I don’t think we’ll see any Elder Dragons in Paizo’s stuff, though monsters heavily influenced by them, maybe...
Just woke up. Gonna get ready and then we will begin later in a couple of hours ^w^
They have the Amphibious and Acid (interesting) Traits.
Dragon's don't have Blindsense anymore.
They start with Frightful Presence!
They can Tail Lash as a Reaction, whenever someone within reach tries to attack them or use a Skill check. If the tail hits the target takes a penalty on their roll oooooo go on, try to back talk the Dragon with a social skill, I dare you.
Its Jaws now carries Energy damage, rather than having to wait till Old age.
With Draconic Frenzy it can make 2 Claw Strikes and 1 Horn Strike for 2 Actions in any order.
And Draconic Momentum is very nice, whenever they score a Critical Hit with a Strike their Breath Weapon recharges :3
Sadly, they can no longer talk to (or charm) reptiles :(
Can't Swamp Stride either.
Magical Liquids only need to make a save vs Corrupt Water if they're lower level than the Dragon. Also it now specifies that it has no effect on the liquids inside a Creature's body hehehe.
Its Jaws now have PERSISTENT energy damage added on as well O.O
It's Breath Weapon can't make an Acid Pool anymore.
The only Innate spell they gain appear to be darkness, you'll have to use the Dragon Spellcaster alternate rule if you want them to have more spells.
No mention of the iconic Crush attack, that might have been moved to Great Wyrm status.
They have the Electricity Trait now instead of Earth.
Sound Imitation works pretty much the same, cept they also get a +4 bonus on the check.
looking through the statblocks all Young Dragons get Frightening Presence, Draconic Frenzy, and Draconic Momentum so I'm not gonna repeat that info every time.
They get the Wing Deflection Reaction, which lets them raise a wing (singular, curious if they can do it a second time?) when they're targeted by an attack to raise their AC, if they're flying they descend a little bit.
Their Jaws start with Electrical Damage.
They start with Innate Spells at Young instead of waiting till Adult.
Desert Thirst still has the callout that when casting create water it can do that instead, not really sure what that is for? Anywho, Liquids lower level than the Dragon have to make a save or be destroyed, and this ALSO has the callout that it can't target the liquids in a Creature's body. To sand my ass.
Just buffed up and more innate spells. They don't gain the Electrical Aura anymore either.
Also noticed that Dragons don't get Resistance anymore.
No Persistent damage on the Jaws.
More Innate Spells, Illusion stuff mostly.
Their Breath Weapon now creates a storm cloud anywhere above the Breath's line of effect and as 1 Action they can call down a lighting bolt that strikes everything in a line.
They still have Mirage.
Are Amphibious as well, don't have any other Traits that stand out though I'm curious if "Poison" should be a Trait at this point.
Are Immune to Poison rather than Acid.
Twisting Tail is their Reaction, provoked when a creature uses a Move Action or "leaves a square during a move action it's using." ??? *shrugs* If they thwap em that Action they were doing is interrupted.
Its Jaws deal Poison damage, also curious if that's automatically persistent or just another type of damage? It's not mentioned under types of Damages on p. 293 of the Rulebook, nor at the back of the Bestiary.
It has charm as an Innate Spell now as well as entangle.
It's Breath Weapon also makes a cloud of toxic gas now.
Buffed and gets the abilities it gained in 1st (Trackless Step).
It's Miasma forms automatically after the Dragon uses it's Breath Weapon, and it last for 1 round. Any Creature that ends its turn in it takes damage (no save) and has concealment and treats all other creatures as having concealment. The Dragon ignores this concealment :3 No mention of strong winds being able to remove the Miasma.
No Persistant Poison on the jaws, must've been a unique treat for Black Dragons.
Almost missed Camouflage, it's next to the Stealth score.
No mention of the ability to create Treants, might be Great Wyrm stuff.
Keeps Smoke Vision aka ignores concealment due to smoke.
Weak to Ice.
Gets Opportune Bite as a Reaction, which is AoO but just with its Jaws.
Its Jaws deal Fire Damage.
It’s Innate Spells are Read Aura and Detect Magic. I LOLed but then I realized Red Dragons are the poster child for Draconic conquerors and pillagers. Seek. Raze. Pillage.
Has probably one of the strongest breath weapons (lots of d6s), the others have the possibly to be higher (d12s, but less of them), but Red’s gonna have higher Damage on average I would say.
Dragon Heat is its old Fire Aura, creatures that enter or end their turn in it take quite a bit (as auras go) of Damage, no save.
Gains the Redirect Flame Reaction, whenever someone or something casts a Fire spell within 100ft they can take full control of the spell as if they were the Caster O.O ... granted if you were using Fire magic against a Red Dragon to begin with...
Yep, strongest Breath Weapon.
To use its Manipulate Flame ability it has to make a Dispel check, if successful they gain control of the spell (and are considered having been concentrating on said spell of applicable) or they can dispel it.
No ability to Melt Stone, again, maybe that got pushed to Great Wyrm.
Snow Vision has changed slightly, they ignore concealment from snowfall. No word on if they suffer from snow glare.
Weak to Fire.
Has very cold blood apparently, as its Reaction is Freezing Blood, if it hit with piercing or slashing damage it sprays the adjacent attacker with blood, dealing cold damage.
The dragon's blood sprays on the creature, dealing 1d6 cold damage. If the creature takes cold damage, it is slowed 1 for 1 round.
*scratches head* is this a way of saying if they’re resistant/immune and take no damage they aren’t slowed? A lil but clunky if so. But I can’t think of a better way to state it atm either *shrugs*
Jaws deal Cold Damage.
Ice Climb grants it a climb speed on icy surfaces and it ignore difficult terrain due to ice and snow and never risks falling when crossing ice.
It can Ground Slam as 1 Action (woohoo!), either while on the ground or flying closes enough to it. Each creature with the area must make an Acrobatics check or be knocked prone and take damage (no mention of if you take extra damage for being at ground zero of the slam). The Dragon can then Step afterward :3
It can still Ice Shape with snow and ice (for 2 Actions), and if it does it while someone is standing on the area they have to make an Acrobatics check or be knocked Prone.
Ah! Guess this answers my earlier question, Adult’s Snow Vision means they are unimpaired by snow.
(Might be a typo, but their Fire Weakness doesn’t increase at this stage)
Dragon Chill gets it an aura of Cold, no save for the damage.
It creates a Blizzard whenever it uses its Breath Weapon, extended its Dragon Chill to the range of the Blizzard and everything in range of it is treated as having concealment and and being difficult terrain (unless you’re borrowing or swimming, nice callout by omission there)
No Icy Fog or Ice Tomb ability (I REALLY hope the latter is a Great Wyrm ability, it’s really cool)