Titan Mauler and Large Weapons


Classes


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Hey guys, considering a Titan Mauler but I have a few issues. I've seen other threads talk about this but I think we need game dev clarification.

1. Weapon sizes - The bit about increasing damage die on page 91 specifically says it is for "an effect". Having a large great axe (or any weapon that normally is normally 1d12 damage) has a larger damage die due to the size of the weapon, not an effect. We can only assume the damage is going to be 1d12+2. What if an actual effect is placed on said weapon to increase damage die? Where would we go from there? We need to know what large weapon damage is.

2. Weapon drops - Since weapons aren't listed as "Large" or "Medium", when would I come across a large weapon. The beastiary lists some large monsters wielding weapons and I can only assume they are large. I still think it's an issue though, unless we explicitly know.

Well that's about it, unless we get feedback for these issues, I may have to consider dumping the idea to create this character :(

Let me know what you guys think.


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Yes I agree. Paizo havent distinguished between the weapon sizes in this playtest, and they should. Or quite frankly what is the point of a large weapon
There have been some suggestions but they are just guesses. There needs to be a clear ruling.
1d12+2 seems a reasonable option for now.


Increased weapon size is not an affect that increases your die size. The reason the text is there is so you don't have to flip to a different page to see how Dual-Handed Assault works.

Large weapons have no affect as written unless you're a Titan mauler, in which case using one gives you Sluggish 1 and doubles your Rage bonus damage. That being said, I tried one out anyway and it still did the highest damage of anyone in my (level 1) party without needing heavy optimization.

The item sizes page should have detail about what happens when a creature tries to use a mis-sized weapon, armor, or gear, but they don't. The implied rule, however, seems to be that Large weapons are normally unusable, and that Small and Medium weapons are interchangeable. I'm no final authority though, so someone else is free to swoop in and correct me if they notice something different.

Another clarification that needs to be made is whether or not Titan Mauler functions with two one-handed weapons. With the text as-written, it seems as though nobody even thought of them, as it unwittingly assumes you're going to use the largest two-hander you can find.


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The only thing that i have been able to find for a side by side comparison is that a hill giants greatclub does 2d10 damage instead of the medium size doing the normal 1d10.

So my speculation is that you add another die of weapon damage for each size increase. But i havent been able to find any proof of that anywhere and they seem to either be over looking it or keeping quiet about it.

So my opinion is that if you really wanted to you could just say that you found or got a hill giants greatclub as your starting weapon and boom 2d10 at character creation. I do however feel that this is kinda a cheat in many ways and would be subject to party interpertaion as well as entire party approval.


PerishNflame wrote:
The only thing that i have been able to find for a side by side comparison is that a hill giants greatclub does 2d10 damage instead of the medium size doing the normal 1d10. So my speculation is that you add another die of weapon damage for each size increase. But i havent been able to find any proof of that anywhere and they seem to either be over looking it or keeping quiet about it. So my opinion is that if you really wanted to you could just say that you found or got a hill giants greatclub as your starting weapon and boom 2d10 at character creation. I do however feel that this is kinda a cheat in many ways and would be subject to party interpertaion as we all entire party approval.

Monsters underlie different rules than players so a comparison does not help us here. Hill Giants also deal 3d10 damage with their greatclub, however that might also factor in their actual size.

There are no different weapon sizes in PF2 outside of monsters or polymorph spells, or the titan mauler. Except the fact that they cost double the money and weigh twice as much there is no other effect.

Titan mauler just works under its own ruleset. Normally characters are unable to use large weapons when they are medium or small.

Rage damage is doubled, thats it.

For the drop question, you find someone who makes a large weapon for you, or you kill a large creature wielding a weapon, however with runes granting magic effects finding the appropriate weapon isn't that big of a deal anymore.

Some effects as dual-handed assault or Deific Weapon, increase die size.


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My understanding is that weapon sizes work as such:
-there is no difference in the die size for a weapon of a different size.
-you cannot normally use a weapon not sized for you.
-if you have an ability which lets you use a wrong-sized weapon, that ability will tell you what effect this has.

So, a 3rd level giant totem Barbarian with 18 strength and a large guisarme (for example) would deal 1d10+4(strength)+6(rage bonus) damage when raging, and 1d10+4 when not raging. A 20th level giant totem barbarian, now with a 22 strength and a +5 Guisarme would deal 6d10+6+14 when raging and 6d10+6 when not raging.


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vestris wrote:

Monsters underlie different rules than players so a comparison does not help us here. Hill Giants also deal 3d10 damage with their greatclub, however that might also factor in their actual size.

There are no different weapon sizes in PF2 outside of monsters or polymorph spells, or the titan mauler. Except the fact that they cost double the money and weigh twice as much there is no other effect.

Titan mauler just works under its own ruleset. Normally characters are unable to use large weapons when they are medium or small.

Rage damage is doubled, thats it.

For the drop question, you find someone who makes a large weapon for you, or you kill a large creature wielding a weapon, however with runes granting magic effects finding the appropriate weapon isn't that big of a deal anymore.

Some effects as dual-handed assault or Deific Weapon, increase die size.

i agree that thats what it says, but i dont feel that its a good enough justification for all the negatives that you suffer for the basically +2 damage you end up with. Also i have a logical objection to it on the grounds that a great club made for a tiny creature and a great club made for a large creature should if dropped from a given height will do the exact same amount of damage. I just feel that its an under powered over hindered ability that could have been polished and made great.


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Page 91 does specify increasing the damage die by one step or by +2 if already d12. So my rulings for our titan mauler have been:

* The larger weapon does increase by one step per page 91.

* A magic weapon then multiplies this modified value. A +1 large d12 weapon would have a net damage of 2d12+4, plus Str etc.

* Raging then also doubles the rage damage modifier.

I feel this is the correct interpretation of the rules on the matter. It also doesn't feel overpowered with how punitive it is to have Sluggish from a larger weapon.


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Why are you increasing the weapon damage die? Page 91 specifies: "When an effect calls on you to increase your weapon damage dice" but titan mauler simply says "When you are wielding such a weapon in combat, double your conditional bonus to damage rolls from raging."

I think weapons which do more or less damage because they are bigger or smaller are a PF1 thing not a PF2 thing. My logic is that since a small rapier and a medium rapier do exactly the same damage now, why should a large rapier do more than either?


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

Why are you increasing the weapon damage die? Page 91 specifies: "When an effect calls on you to increase your weapon damage dice" but titan mauler simply says "When you are wielding such a weapon in combat, double your conditional bonus to damage rolls from raging."

I think weapons which do more or less damage because they are bigger or smaller are a PF1 thing not a PF2 thing. My logic is that since a small rapier and a medium rapier do exactly the same damage now, why should a large rapier do more than either?

My answer would be that something that has more mass should do more damage if not then make all weapons do the exact same amount of damage say a d6 across the board cause the size shape and bulk are meaningless and the description is just there to make the player feel like they are using diffrent weapons.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

Why are you increasing the weapon damage die?

He's doing it because it makes sense, not because the rules say so.


Draco18s wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

Why are you increasing the weapon damage die?

He's doing it because it makes sense, not because the rules say so.

Yep that how it should work. It should be possible to get some combinations going here but they have all been nerfed.


If Large weapons were to do more damage than Normal weapons again then Small weapons would have to do less and I'm guessing that return to the roots of 1st edition will not be a very popular decision...


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I am much happier to have people try to wield "too large weapons" because they think it's cool, rather than "I am trying to get a small amount of additional damage" as it was in PF1.

I am extremely happy that small characters aren't at a damage disadvantage anymore and would not be happy to see that reversed.


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dnoisette wrote:
If Large weapons were to do more damage than Normal weapons again then Small weapons would have to do less and I'm guessing that return to the roots of 1st edition will not be a very popular decision...

Small size is an odd corner case in this, where it's a standard size for PCs to start from. Tiny and smaller are not. Large and bigger are not. It would definitely feel like Small & Medium are "standard." The concession made wasn't that Small deals same as Medium, and so larger weapons cannot. The balance point was that Small lost the +1 AC and +1 to hit (both massive within this tight math system), and so it gains back damage equal to Medium. You can definitely change back to Large weapons safely within this system, because the +2 damage after reaching a 1d12 weapon die continues to be additive. Previously, the die increases were multiplicative, giving a 1.5x damage per size. If you started with a 2d6 weapon at Medium (or the yikes level of "Why did they print this!?" Butcher's Axe 3d6 at Medium), you could have a very, very large weapon damage. 2d6 med, 3d6 large, 4d6 huge, 6d6 garg, 8d6 col. Combine that with the existence of Vital Strike and niche builds got massive, massive damage. In PF2, that same array looks like: 1d12 med, 1d12+2 large, 1d12+4 huge, 1d12+6 garg, 1d12+8 col. That's much, much safer damage scaling.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

dnoisette wrote:
If Large weapons were to do more damage than Normal weapons again then Small weapons would have to do less and I'm guessing that return to the roots of 1st edition will not be a very popular decision...

I'd be a lot happier if weapon size mattered, including small weapons doing less damage. I want a game that's way more simulationist that PF2 is aiming for. I might as well play the card game war if I want a game that has few ties to logic.

Liberty's Edge

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I for one am VERY happy to see that weapons of all sizes are treated the same. Honestly, a Large Greatsword being used by a Medium PC, Enlarged to Large, then adding another layer of "effective" size changes has only resulted in the silliiest munchkin nonsense I ever had the displeasure of dealing with in Society Games. I've NEVER seen anyone take this kind of mechanic and try using it for anything other than silly min/max powergaming PCs. There is no good reason to make a GM have to deal with 2-3-4d8 Weapon Attacks that aren't even magical.

I for one welcome our new munchkin crushing overlords.


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Themetricsystem wrote:
There is no good reason to make a GM have to deal with 2-3-4d8 Weapon Attacks that aren't even magical.

There are no rules that would do that. All weapons right now are single-die. The suggestion on making large weapons do more damage was to use the rules on page 91. Which never scales to more than one die.

The things Greg.Everham said were about other editions and he made no claims that PF2 has, would have, will have, or could have 2d6 medium sized non magical weapons with or without this house rule.


Draco18s wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:
There is no good reason to make a GM have to deal with 2-3-4d8 Weapon Attacks that aren't even magical.

There are no rules that would do that. All weapons right now are single-die. The suggestion on making large weapons do more damage was to use the rules on page 91. Which never scales to more than one die.

The things Greg.Everham said were about other editions and he made no claims that PF2 has, would have, will have, or could have 2d6 medium sized non magical weapons with or without this house rule.

He wasn't entirely wrong to be afraid of explosive weapon dice. I love my Titan Fighting Goliath Druid from PF1, but he's something that really did trivialize content. I would point out his damage per round while Vital Striking was still comparable to spell casters or to optimized martials, so I dunno if even the "cheese" aspect was so bad.

But, yes, PF2 moves from multiplicative increases by size step to additive. With the penalty of Sluggish 1 in PF2, it would see that the damage die could increase safely in this system. With or without it, the Barbarian seems to be leading the DPR math right now, so it seems like the game designers have the effect that they want either way.


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I mean, the simplest way to deal with wrong sized weapons is "you can't" and the "double rage bonus" to damage is better than "increased damage dice" at every level. So if we were to take away the doubling of the rage bonus and add a bonus die, all this would do is help the giant barbarian deal more damage on their fatigued turns, which is honestly not a turn you want to be attacking much during (nobody wants a turn when they get -4 to AC and all saves if there are still people who want to hurt you around.)


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I personally think it's bizarre that weapons deal identical damage regardless of size. You can't tell me that a pixie's dagger would be more than a pinprick compared to a normal sized one. Likewise, much larger weapons should deal commensurately more damage. They cut through more of the body.


If you want further evidence that the weapon die doesn't increase, look at the Enlarge spell.


Yeah I'm actually in the size should matter camp myself. I also think the cap of a d12 is too limiting they could make magic items incrase by die type even for a 2d6 or higher weapom (ofcourse it could end up being op if to many things stack) so a +1 potent would do 4d6 a +2 6d6 etc.

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