If Lore is unique from all other skills, segregate it. The character sheet just gives you two slots for Lore. It should get its own section because I'm going to have knowledge in more than two areas.
Do what Pathfinder 1e should have done and separate Knowledges from Skills.
Acrobatics, Athletics, Deception, Diplomacy, Intimidation, Performance, Stealth, Survival, and Thievery (9) are ability based skills, while Arcana, Crafting, Lore, Medicine, Nature, Occultism, Religion, and Society (8) are knowledge based skills.
Have "Key" Knowledges... those listed above that are essential to adventuring and have Lore covered other "General" Knowledge topics such as Military Training, Competition Archery rules, and the mating practices of the Chelaxian Bugbear Tribes.
Allow for a specific number of topics + INT modifier, at each level of TEML.
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I just don't get lore. I couldn't find a list of acceptable lores in the rule book, and it really seems like you can just pick anything that floats your boat.
If that is the way it is, they should spell it out more clearly. I searched for "lore" in the pdf to try to find a list of lores and I had to go through 200 hits to realize there was no list.
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Lore is basically the Knowledge skills from Shadowrun 4, they're fluffy, infinite, and not particularly useful. Most of the ones you'll run into are from backgrounds.
Functionally, they're a way to turn downtime into petty cash. Or pull a trivia fact out during an encounter. Yet, Planar Lore seem far more appropriate for adventurers, not something you can do for money, and seems straight up too broad and problematic compared to Vampire Lore, which implies a lore skill for each and every creature entry. And each god has a lore skill, according to the acolyte background.
But mostly you'll be dealing with the lores on pages 38-39, and it would be a poor choice to spend actual skills on more.
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If nothing else, there should be a list of common/recommended/suggested Lore skills and/or better guidelines as to what counts as a "narrow topic" for the purposes of the skill. How not to go too broad, or too narrow. Right now it's very unclear and easy to misjudge unless you stick to the pre-existing Background Lore skills.
Haven't dived into the Playtest yet, but the way Lore reads is as a situational skill much like you might use Knowledge (Planes) when approaching a portal or coming across a temple of a long forgotten deity and using Knowledge (Religion) to gain insight.
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I definitely got stuck for quite a while trying to figure out what, if any, Lore skills I could take. There will need to be a list for PFS anyway, I'm sure; might as well put it in the book (or at least example categories).
I'd also really appreciate a space on the character sheet to write what Lore I have, the way the PF1 sheet has a blank after Craft/Perform/Profession.
I remember reading the Barkeep background, and noting they get Alcohol Lore. Interesting, I wonder what Alcohol Lore does. Ctrl-F, "alcohol lore" - nothing. Ctrl-F, alcohol - nothing. So, wtf does Alcohol Lore do?
That was my immediate problem with the Lore skills - everyone gets one and there's no clue (beyond GM fiat, seemingly) on what they do. The Courtly Graces feat is all about using Society rather than Noble Lore, but Society seems like the skill for that anyway and there are no suggested DCs for the lore's use.
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Adding my voice to this chorus. No list. No concrete examples of use (I haven't looked over the adventure yet). Why on earth would anyone spend a feat or any other resource to pick up another Lore skill? Almost any other skill is going to have a broader usage and appeal. Also, I remember seeing a feat that says you can become Legendary in a specific lore... and yet the Lore section itself says Lore skills are always considered signature skills. At least part of that feat is pointless and a waste of word count, or there is some difference I've missed somewhere. (I don't recall the name and I don't have access to the PDFs at the moment, but will try to find it later.)
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I remember reading the Barkeep background, and noting they get Alcohol Lore. Interesting, I wonder what Alcohol Lore does. Ctrl-F, "alcohol lore" - nothing. Ctrl-F, alcohol - nothing. So, wtf does Alcohol Lore do?
You can answer trivia questions about alcohol, and earn some downtime money in an alcohol related job. Like brewing or serving.
The example with Harsk and 'Tea Lore' is pretty much exactly equivalent.
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Lore is PF1 Profession. Arcana, Occultism, Nature, Religion, and Society are the knowledge skills in PF2.
Lore is PF1 Profession. Arcana, Occultism, Nature, Religion, and Society are the knowledge skills in PF2.
You are probably right, but it seems that everyone here agrees that this is just explained terribly in the book.
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Lore is PF1 Profession. Arcana, Occultism, Nature, Religion, and Society are the knowledge skills in PF2.You are probably right, but it seems that everyone here agrees that this is just explained terribly in the book.
I don't. They're specific trivia topics and really mundane professions wrapped up together in a ball of mostly fluff and petty cash.
Since they mostly come from backgrounds, they add some depth without costing actual character resources, which is very good. [3.x fighters that spent half their skills on profession:brewer or sailor made me very sad]
Maybe I'm missing something then, but is the only way to know anything about high society using Noble Lore? Courtly Graces would seem to imply that.
I'd agree that Lore probably needs a bit more clarification. Based on the fact that one of its Trained usages is to allow for the conduct of tradecraft (and, subsequently, the ability to provide for oneself economically), Lore would seem to be actually a very specialized form of trained knowledge/ability. However, the current presentation of it lends it too easily to be dismissed as trivia.
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Lore seems to work as a profession skill and a really limited trivia skill, but it's not clear why you'd spend skill slots on training it even up to Expert, let alone beyond (unless of course you don't adventure for your money).
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Lore - all is basically Bardic Knowledge.
I really like Lore for fluff reasons. I like the idea that I can play somebody who knows a lot about Shoanti, or wine, or whatever.
My main concern is where it comes to knowing about monsters (which is, in PF1, pretty much the main game effect that knowledge skills have).
There are two problems here :
1) How narrow does a Lore have to be? The fact that one of the examples is "Lore - Vampires" really bothers me. At that granularity not even wizards investing a LOT into Lore can learn about more than a small subset of monsters, especially once the bestiary train gets started.
I think a granularity along the lines of PF1 Favoured enemies would be about right, at least for mechanical benefits. So, Lore Undead would tell me about the basic combat abilities of vampires, Lore Vampires would also tell me about notable vampires, vampire culture, etc.
2) One gets VERY little information. A successful check gets you one piece of information, a crit 2. You can keep trying but at the cost of additional actions and increased difficulty. Lets look at a Vampire again. It has something over a dozen interesting abilities. So my Legendary Giles the Watcher (from Buffy the Vampire Slayer) character with Legendary Vampire Lore is going to know only a little bit about vampires. That just seems totally and utterly wrong
Again, Lore skills in PF2 are profession skills meant to make money and incidentally know stuff about your narrow job field. They are not knowledge skills. Arcana, Nature, Religion, Occultism, and Society are the knowledge skills.
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Which is fine for vocational lores, Xenocrat. Noble Lore? Vampire Lore?
Which is fine for vocational lores, Xenocrat. Noble Lore? Vampire Lore?
Society and Religion. If those are published lores then someone made a mistake or found a really niche labor market.
The skill feat Additional Lore would be very OP if Lore wasn't just a super-niche skill (for making gold as people have said).
Additional Lore. General / Skill feat 1
The breadth of your knowledge has increased to encompass a new field. Choose an additional Lore skill subcategory. You become trained in it and it counts as a signature skill. At 3rd, 5th, and 13th levels, you gain an additional skill increase you can apply only to Lore. When you select this feat, you gain the skill increases immediately for all listed levels at or below your current level.
This is the only way i've found to get an additional signature skill (albeit a Lore skill), and it seems like you can end up Legendary in the chosen lore by level 13 using the extra (free) skill increases the feat grants you.
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Which is fine for vocational lores, Xenocrat. Noble Lore? Vampire Lore?
Maybe you ply your trade at being a noble? Or maybe you are the guy other adventurers come to when they don't know anything about vampires, so you charge them for it.
On a more serious note, I think most can agree that the skill can at least do with a little clearer direction. It may not need to be more powerful, that's fine, but at least give us some help in making it actually transparent on its usefulness.
Also: A list for anybody who doesn't want to keep jumping back and forth. If I missed any, please add them.
Academia
Alcohol
Animal
Deity-Specific (Desna, Sarenrae, etc).
Desert
Entertainment
Farming
Gladiatorial
Hunting
Labor
Mercantile
Nobility
Sailing
Scouting
Smithing
Underworld
Vampire
Warfare
Also: A list for anybody who doesn't want to keep jumping back and forth. If I missed any, please add them.Academia
Alcohol
Animal
Deity-Specific (Desna, Sarenrae, etc).
Desert
Entertainment
Farming
Gladiatorial
Hunting
Labor
Mercantile
Nobility
Sailing
Scouting
Smithing
Underworld
Vampire
Warfare
That looks like the beginning of a table of contents for a splat book...
Lore of Golarion anyone?
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The skill feat Additional Lore would be very OP if Lore wasn't just a super-niche skill (for making gold as people have said).
Additional Lore. General / Skill feat 1
The breadth of your knowledge has increased to encompass a new field. Choose an additional Lore skill subcategory. You become trained in it and it counts as a signature skill. At 3rd, 5th, and 13th levels, you gain an additional skill increase you can apply only to Lore. When you select this feat, you gain the skill increases immediately for all listed levels at or below your current level.This is the only way i've found to get an additional signature skill (albeit a Lore skill), and it seems like you can end up Legendary in the chosen lore by level 13 using the extra (free) skill increases the feat grants you.
I actually interpreted the quoted text differently. I thought it allowed you to raise ANY lore skill one level and not JUST the one bought with additional lore.
If I'm right then you still wouldn't be able to become legendary in Lore until level 15.
Which is fine for vocational lores, Xenocrat. Noble Lore? Vampire Lore?Society and Religion. If those are published lores then someone made a mistake or found a really niche labor market.
I'd agree with you, but check the Noble background. Other than the stat boost, its entire benefit is to give you Nobility Lore and a feat to allow you to use the Society skill (instead of Nobility Lore) to do stuff I would have expected to be in Society in the first place.
This is the only way i've found to get an additional signature skill (albeit a Lore skill), and it seems like you can end up Legendary in the chosen lore by level 13 using the extra (free) skill increases the feat grants you.
Lore skills are Always signature, and the statement in Additional Lore appears to just be a verification that it doesn't contradict that.
Nobility Lore's ability to generate cash could be interpreted as a stipend from your wealthy family, I suppose.
I agree with all of the suggestions of the original poster who started this thread. Lore needs some tweaking for it to work and not be a trap.
Again, Lore skills in PF2 are profession skills meant to make money and incidentally know stuff about your narrow job field. They are not knowledge skills. Arcana, Nature, Religion, Occultism, and Society are the knowledge skills.
You're right. I think the problem people are having is that they don't realize exactly how gamist 2E is, and they are looking at Lore as "Lore".
For a while I was "Why can't you use other skills to earn money during downtime?" I mean, some of them might not be appropriate, but Medicine certainly seems like something that I could earn (a very decent) wage from, especially when compared to Sailing Lore in a landlocked city.
Then I realised it's all just fluff on a skill that should really be called "Make money during downtime".
Again, Lore skills in PF2 are profession skills meant to make money and incidentally know stuff about your narrow job field. They are not knowledge skills. Arcana, Nature, Religion, Occultism, and Society are the knowledge skills.You're right. I think the problem people are having is that they don't realize exactly how gamist 2E is, and they are looking at Lore as "Lore".
For a while I was "Why can't you use other skills to earn money during downtime?" I mean, some of them might not be appropriate, but Medicine certainly seems like something that I could earn (a very decent) wage from, especially when compared to Sailing Lore in a landlocked city.
Then I realised it's all just fluff on a skill that should really be called "Make money during downtime".
They could just keep it Profession and have done with it. Then you can make a profession check to primarily earn money and also sometimes to know something small about the profession you've learned (or earn a bonus to official "skill checks because of it).
Solves the "lore" confusion and makes clear that you want to earn money primarily using the skill.
I preferred Starfinder's approach where you could make income rolls with vocational skills such as Medicine or Computers.
Personally, I had to add some personal rule to Recall Knowledge in order to make it functional (and because my players used it). In the case of Lore, what I do is lower the DC by one tier for that specific topic, or two if it's very narrow.
The narrower the Lore, the more accurate it is, so if someone had Undead Lore and tried to ID a vampire rogue spawn (level 4 creature, normally a Low difficulty Religion check with DC17) he'd succeed on a simple 13 (a Trivial lv4 check). If he had Vampire Lore, I'd lower that by an extra 2 levels (since it's already Trivial), bringing it to DC 11.
I would personally tie Lore to campaign backgrounds, and I imagine it is already meant to happen (think of Doomsday Dawn, three out of six adventure-specific backgrounds give Lore that deals with the main themes of the adventure).