I simply cannot fathom how people can choose to participate in RPG Superstar by submitting an item, and yet somehow completely ignore every iota of design advice given on these boards.
Seriously, I am flabbergasted. You figure with the sheer concentration of good advice here on these boards that something must have gotten through to these designers, but apparently they all color their computer screens in with black permanent marker except for a tiny window just big enough to click the submission link.
I've seen swiss army knife-ish spells in a can that are also joke items. And they're formatted incorrectly. And they're seriously cribbing and/or outright stealing functionality from other classes.
smh
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Okay, that came out a lot crueler and elitist than I intended it to, and for that I apologize. I realize that there are a lot of people who are unfamiliar with RPGSS (or even Pathfinder for that matter), and who may have just thrown an item together on a whim and submitted it for fun.
That being said, the core of the complaint still stands. People, please, for the love of Pathfinder, take a few minutes to read some of the advice on these boards before you submit.
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I feel your pain. Unfortunately, it looks like a lot of contestants never scroll down far enough to even discover the forum section of the contest page. That, or they rush together an item and submit it immediately upon discovering the contest. It's the only reasons I can think of for some of the items we're seeing.
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Personally, I think it's a symptom of a TLDR generation. But maybe that's just me?
TLDR? Neil, have you seen the length of the Incessant Rambling thread?
TLDR? Neil, have you seen the length of the Incessant Rambling thread?
Sure, lots of people are posting, but I don't think anyone's reading it. There's a reason the phrase isn't "Too long; didn't write."
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I read it. It's even more fun than the voting booth!
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It's hard to keep up with that thread.
TLDR? Neil, have you seen the length of the Incessant Rambling thread?
The problem is I started that thread after the start of voting... Which means that those who submitted haven't had chance of reading related complaints. I am afraid that they did not paid attention to voters' complaints last year, when we threw those tantrums in two or three threads.
I know what you mean, I peek once per hour and it's like (another 200+ new posts).
Very fun reading at times though.
RPG Superstar 2015
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Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka mamaursula
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TLDR? Neil, have you seen the length of the Incessant Rambling thread?Sure, lots of people are posting, but I don't think anyone's reading it. There's a reason the phrase isn't "Too long; didn't write."
Hey now! I'm reading it. Sort of. We need Cliffs Notes for it.
I skipped some of the 750 posts between yesterday evening and today afternoon.
I'm reading it, but a person has to sleep sometime. I got up this morning to let the dogs out and in the mere 5 hours I'd been sleeping there were hundreds of new posts. Then hundreds more when I got back up 4 hours later.
As for the disregard of the advice--not to mention a complete disregard for the rules--this happens year after year. People want to win, but they don't really want to do what it takes to win. They throw their item in (sometimes not even the item asked for) and expect luck to carry the day.
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I've been keeping up with the thread as In keep seeing repeat items and have a minute between votes. Funny snark
Reading the various entries provides a very interesting window into how people are playing this game since so many of the entries would only be useful in very specific situations and campaigns. For instance some items take years of game time to be useful; my campaigns have never spanned that much time, but it's cool to see that others' apparently do. Other items seem only to provide an esthetic benefit.
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I simply cannot fathom how people can choose to participate in RPG Superstar by submitting an item, and yet somehow completely ignore every iota of design advice given on these boards.
Seriously, I am flabbergasted. You figure with the sheer concentration of good advice here on these boards that something must have gotten through to these designers, but apparently they all color their computer screens in with black permanent marker except for a tiny window just big enough to click the submission link.
I've seen swiss army knife-ish spells in a can that are also joke items. And they're formatted incorrectly. And they're seriously cribbing and/or outright stealing functionality from other classes.
smh
Bryan, my initial reaction was much like yours. A night's rest has given me time to consider just who is submitting. Or more to the point, who can submit... Everyone.
I'm not confident that it has to do with a TL;DR culture. Disinterest in considering the guidelines and constructively examining the item seems just as likely a culprit. Truly, it is a variety of reasons that account for the many items I have read by this point, and will continue to read.
When I think of the majority of players I have shared a table with at Pathfinder Society events I can say honestly that I wouldn't trust these people to create content for our hobby. And I imagine that these are just the people who are submitting items that fly in the face of the information that has been easily presented to us.
Fortunately, there are some incredible exceptions. Which is the point of all of this. I feel somewhat fortunate that I was encouraged to participate in RPG Superstar to experience the rise of those skilled few! My hope is that many of us learn a great deal from the process and the pool of talent only grows.
I do also hope that Paizo reaches a point where they can remove a noteworthy amount of items that simply aren't up to par ;)
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it could also be the message of "DO IT IS SUPER FUN AND WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO LOSE FUN FUN FUN" giving folks the perception that it's just something to spend a few minutes on while the reality is more like "do hours and hours of research and reading only to submit something that will be made fun of by thread people"
I'm fairly certain that the vast majority of items submitted that are the brunt of the jokes were not submitted by anyone that bothered to do any research or reading.
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I can see both sides of it. A lot of the voters are expecting people to bring their A-game, and the contest was posted with expected guidelines which are being repeatedly disregarded. Meanwhile, Lamontius is right - the thing is advertised as "Do it! Fun!" There's a pretty big disconnect from urging relative newcomers to submit and the reality of letting the public at-large loose on it.
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it could also be the message of "DO IT IS SUPER FUN AND WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO LOSE FUN FUN FUN" giving folks the perception that it's just something to spend a few minutes on while the reality is more like "do hours and hours of research and reading only to submit something that will be made fun of by thread people"
From what I've seen, I can generally tell when someone put effort into an item that ended up flawed vs. when someone didn't try at all, or submitted a ring/staff/armor/weapon as a wondrous item, or just went for easy edgy/shocking, or minor changes to a published core book item. There are a lot of items that aren't even up to ok/functional-but-boring standards. My snarkiness so far has just been a combo of frustration from so many items that fell into one of the latter categories and punchiness from seeing the same bad items again (and again and again).
My intent in the thread comments was not to belittle or shame the people who tried. I do take my judging seriously. If I upset or disgusted you, Lamontius, or anyone else, I sincerely apologize.
What Amby said. I'm not trying to jump on people, and I'm sorry if I've hurt anyone.
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I couldn't come up with anything remotely interesting to submit, so I didn't, I'm just voting this year (which is my first RPGSS in any form). I have't voted on that many items yet, and I haven't even tried the Incessent thread yet (and frankly probably won't) because I don't have a lot of free time, but I'm having a hard time not clicking the "equally good/bad" button a lot. When faced with two uninteresting or equally convoluted, seemingly pointless items, with formatting errors in both, it's hard to suggest either. With experience as both a writing center consultant and a graduate teaching assistant, seeing people not follow the bloody rules for their submission makes me grind my teeth.
On the other hand there have been a couple of cool items so far, and I haven't read very many, so hopefully it'll get better.
Because someone has to help determine the cull? I never expected it wouldn't be work. There are a lot of good ideas with flawed execution/grammar & writing issues that I'd still like to see upvoted over a dull but better-executed spell-in-a-can/whatever. Writing/item creation skills can be learned/honed over time, but creative/innovative thinking is much harder to come by. And it's fun to see/upvote a few true SuperStar-worthy items before they hopefully hit the Top 32.
If it's any consolation, I spotted at least two, possibly three, tiny errors or possible problems with my submission after I'd clicked submit. At least one is serious enough for me to lose votes, no matter how good (IMO) the rest of it is. But that comes with the territory.
I think the bulk of the frustration comes from the large number of items submitted that continue to show the same mistakes made year after year. Yes, Paizo encourages people to enter the contest, but they're not saying to just slap something together, toss it in, and hope for the best. The message is to try, to put actual effort into the contest. This is reinforced by people like Sean Reynolds taking the time to provide advice to potential entrants on what to do and what to avoid. Yet many people ignore all of that.
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1) Many people don't bother to read contest rules.
2) Most people don't bother to read advice about the contest, either because they don't know it exists, don't bother to research, or think they're awesome enough that they've got it covered.
1 + 2 = A lot of items that are never going to make it.
Remember that we get around a thousand R1 submissions each year, and we narrow that down to just 32. Most items are average, maybe 20% are significantly below average. 20% of 1000 is 200 items... 200 below-average items that you'll be seeing in various combinations until the tech team does a cull. And, unfortunately, if nobody votes in this early period, we'll have less data to sort out the lowest-ranked items, which means many of those items will still be around after the cull. The solution is to vote early, vote often, and go to sleep knowing that you made the post-cull voting a better place for everyone. :)
RPG Superstar 2013
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka Steven T. Helt
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What Neil said. We're all anecdotally awesome, so we don't need advice. Just ask us how awesome we are.
And I think the voter rant thread is funny. Just remember: if you think your item is one people are kvetching about, learn from the experience and have fun along with everyone.
1) Many people don't bother to read contest rules.
2) Most people don't bother to read advice about the contest, either because they don't know it exists, don't bother to research, or think they're awesome enough that they've got it covered.1 + 2 = A lot of items that are never going to make it...
+1.
Watching some of the players and DM's in my local games, I see (and am guilty of myself) those occasional bouts of silly rule-breaking and general immature, ego-driven snarkiness, that remind me that, as a rule, the average gamer tends to be the sort of person less likely to always "play well with others". This, of course, often includes a certain amount of impulsiveness -- "Oooh!! I just came up with this totally AWESOME thingie of gaming goodness that IS SOO wack I must submit it RIGHT NOW!! (and mebbie I'll check out those "rules" or whatev's later...)"
The gamers I know -- and I include myself -- aren't as a pool exactly a hotbed of mental health, or paradigms of maturity. This makes them fun gamers, but not always the steadiest of game designers. I'm happy to say, though, there seem to be plenty of exceptions to the rule.