Half-Orc / Half-Elf

[Steven Constant]

To begin, I see the logic of moving Half-Orc and Half-Elf. But this move is akin to Wizards of the Coast removing the gnome race from D&D 4E - its a bad idea.

To play a "standard" race, iconic to the fantasy game, there is a feat tax. The feat tax - One of the huge flaws from D&D 3.5E that translated in Pathfinder RPG.

Please put Half-Orc and Half-Elf back. Please don't make the same mistake as D&D 4E.

[Ron Sterling]

I personally enjoy how they have it right now. I think it's a neat idea. I'm not sure where people are drawing the line from 4th edition dungeons and dragons to pathfinder 2nd, but it's not even close.

[CorvusMask]

I'm kind of confused if this is even a feat tax.

Like, ancestry feats are free and you only get certain amount of them anyway. Feat taxes are problem because you are forced to take less interesting feats to actually get to good option or need ridiculous amount of feats to do a simple thing. If you want half orc ancestry feats, would you even pick human ancestry feats?

[Rycke]

There's no feat tax. You get all the abilities of a human except the extra chosen ability. Instead, you get 2 abilities from the other race. If anything, you're getting 2 things for the cost of one.

[DanceYrself]

I too understand the move, but it also brings up questions as to why its human based and not elf or orc based. In past editions and other game settings, they are almost always their own unique race with their own lore and qualities.

It's Jarring

[Steven Constant]

Ron Sterling wrote:

I personally enjoy how they have it right now. I think it's a neat idea. I'm not sure where people are drawing the line from 4th edition dungeons and dragons to pathfinder 2nd, but it's not even close.

D&D 4E is infamous for removing the charts and the number grids. Charts scare new players, tbh. The numbers and stats are hidden in the words. Just like PF 2E.

At the same time D&D 4E framed ALL classes on the same proficiency tree. So it didnt feel that each class was unique. Thats why PF 2E has 'T/E/M/L'. To give the feel of each class as unique in power.

If this system will work idk. However, its a step away from feeling like a paper WoW that D&D 4E felt like.

[Pan]

I was annoyed at first too, but seeing that taking half-elf/orc opens the ancestry feats for both elf/orc and human is a neat benny. I mean you still get the trait like boon for taking the ancestry feat too.

The real problem is ancestry being reduced to a trait like system. Its too sparse, lacking in both theme and mechanics.

[Steven Constant]

Rycke wrote:

There's no feat tax. You get all the abilities of a human except the extra chosen ability. Instead, you get 2 abilities from the other race. If anything, you're getting 2 things for the cost of one.

The feat tax is exactly as you state - Even if the feat is free I have to spend it to be "Half-"whatever. Another character has a slight edge over this Half-race.

In the long term a smart player will skip this to get a more powerful ancestry feat. Or, if this method gives a feat that is too powerful, there will be no human characters.

[CorvusMask]

I can sort of understand the argument if its about "All half elves have to pick this feat first while humans can pick whatever they want(though technically that applies to all heritage feats since you can only take them at first level, if you want them everyone has to pickthem), but I don't really buy the "It makes humans/half races too powerful in comparison!" argument. Heritage feat itself gives you mechanical benefits and I'm pretty sure human exclusive options and half elf exclusive options will both have something the other one can't do

[Ronin_Knight]

The argument is that since Half-races don't get a heritage feat, it having been spent to make them a half-race in the first place, it puts them at a disadvantage not makes them more powerful

[Rameth]

I like the idea myself as it makes it flow into the system well but the ancestry feats need to be tweaked a little bit. Also it would make more sense if the Half-Elf and Half-Orc feats gave you an additional ancestory feat in order to make up for the one "lost" by taking that feat.

[Madclaw]

Pan wrote:

I was annoyed at first too, but seeing that taking half-elf/orc opens the ancestry feats for both elf/orc and human is a neat benny. I mean you still get the trait like boon for taking the ancestry feat too.

The real problem is ancestry being reduced to a trait like system. Its too sparse, lacking in both theme and mechanics.

It's not a benny though, that was already present in 1E. It's nothing new. I can see that it saves space, but I would much rather have them separate and be able to take other abilities.

[Sebastian Hirsch]

I kinda like the way they have done this, and getting access to some neat human options is also neat.

[Phantasmist]

Still reading, but I've made it through the ancestries chapter. Put me in the disappointed category, I wonder if anyone would seriously object if half-orc and half-elf became separate ancestries. I don't seem the harm to doing so, and in the long run humans can gain other feat choices that make up for the minor loss in diversity.

Anyway, I'm more disappointed that ancestries seem a lacking at first level. Some of the feats are admittedly interesting, but every race seems too bare bones. I wish I had more choices upfront at 1st level.

[Jurassic Pratt]

Gonna quote myself here on this issue.

Jurassic Pratt wrote:

I think at it's core it's a design issue. We've seen developers talk about how it's okay that there's a feat tax to play a half race because they're actually going to end up more powerful than a human, essentially human+.

Meanwhile, you've got fans of those races saying "I don't want to be a human+, I just want to play a half race and have a variety of Ancestry choices like everyone else at level 1".

Why not simply make them the same power level as the other races and not require a feat to balance?

[charissi]

When you get to the 'humans' part it is 2 full pages about 'humans' and then ~1/4 page about the demi-ones each.

My idea for making h-orcs and h-elfs feel less like the step children:
Start the whole section as (demi-) humans, then have one trait for every combination: half-elf, half-orc, (pure) human.

[David knott 242]

I think that half-elves and half-orcs point out how for many character concepts, 1st level characters seem to come up exactly one feat short.

The Adopted Ancestry feat can be taken at 1st level only by a human, and doing so uses up the character's ancestry feat, which has to be General Training. If you actually want to gain any benefit from your adopted culture, you have to wait until you get another ancestry feat at 5th level. Maybe some sort of flaw system could work here -- I could easily see an adopted character losing access to ancestry feats from his own actual ancestry as well as his racial languages, for example.

For half-elves and half-orcs, we have a similar problem if, for example, we decide that a half-elf has a parent who is a drow or a Varisian human. Forget about gaining something from both parents -- you currently have to wait until 5th level to get anything from the distinctive culture of either parent. At 1st level, you are just a generic half-elf/half-human.

[Almarane]

I feel like people are overestimating most ancestry feats. Sure, they can pretty well round up your character concept. But they seem pretty low in power compared to class feats, so "missing" one ancestry feat doesn't seem very harsh to me.

It's even more true about Heritage feats. As for now, I haven't been pretty impressed about heritage feats : as I suspected from the human/half-elf/half-orc blog post, since they are level 1 only, they are pretty situationnal, not numerous, and you can easily make a strong character without them. Sure, they can help you out. But no more than Half-blood feats or other ancestry feats. As I predicted, I will happily give up my heritage feat as an elf or my level 1 feat as a human to make a half-elf/half-orc if those half-ancestries fit my concept better.

So I will be in the team of those who like this new system.

[Virellius]

Why can't my half-orc access Orc Weapons at level one? Why does he have to wait FOUR LEVELS to use a weapon he should have grown up knowing about?

It makes 100% no sense.

[Terrordactyl]

Choosing half-elf ancestry equates to being just that, gaining only half of everything the elf ancestry gets. There are no benefits.

The half- ancestries are supposed to be versatile, but how can they be versatile when there's nothing to work with at level one?

Also doesn't making the half-elf and half-orc available only through the 1st level human ancestry make them not actual ancestries? Just ancestry feats of human?

Yeah, I get they're trying represent their mixed parents, but now it shows the half- ancestries as lackluster. In 1e, their diverse parenthood was celebrated by giving the half- races with abilities that rivaled the other races.

I suggest that the half-elf and half-orc automatically gain the benefits of the half-elf ancestry feat or the half-orc ancestry feat and still get a 1st level ancestry feat.

[Philippe Perreault]

Almarane wrote:

I feel like people are overestimating most ancestry feats. Sure, they can pretty well round up your character concept. But they seem pretty low in power compared to class feats, so "missing" one ancestry feat doesn't seem very harsh to me.

I agree with this.

Which is why I feel that gaining one of those lackluster feats at level 13 and 17 is just depressing.

[Aviana]

I feel very frustrated about missing out on picking up an ancestry feat because I'm too busy proving I'm really a half-elf. Like at the very least, please let me take one more ancestry feat with the heritage feat.

[Kalindlara]

David knott 242 wrote:

For half-elves and half-orcs, we have a similar problem if, for example, we decide that a half-elf has a parent who is a drow or a Varisian human. Forget about gaining something from both parents -- you currently have to wait until 5th level to get anything from the distinctive culture of either parent. At 1st level, you are just a generic half-elf/half-human.

Another big slice of my problem. My personal character is, essentially, a tattooed sorcerer. When a Varisian Tattoo feat rolls around, she won't be able to get it (without Ancestral Paragon) because of the half-elf blood price.

[Gug on the Silver Mountain]

I can see advantages but you could get the same effect from giving Half elves and Half orcs a feat allowing them to choose human and elf/orc feats.

I think the bigger problem is it makes them sort of fade in to the background. They aren't there, getting the full treatment other races are. If it feels like the CRB isn't treating them with respect, but rather as 'humans-with-a-dash', then you can't expect players to get as invested in them.

Even if losing an ancestry feat isn't particularly unbalancing, it still feels like you are having to sacrifice something that every other option has just to play them; It still decentivises playing them, even if they don't actually play any worst. It's something that annoyed me in Dungeon World (not a game I recommend, btw), and it annoys me here too.

[Br11741]

If you can have a Half-Elf and a Half-Orc (the other half of both being human) the why can’t there be an Elven-Orc or an Orcian-Elf? The fact that Elves can mate with humans and produce children that are reproductively viably children (meaning they can have children with other Half-Elves making more Half-Elves [soon we will be sorounded by Half-Elves. Oh god no please help us all!!!!] and the same goes for Half-Orcs.) The Half-Elves and Half-Orcs can both mate with Elves, Humans and Orcs as well. Meaning that they are not a Species that they are a Race or a Breed kind of like with Dogs.

So why can’t an Elf mate an Orc or/and an Orc mate an Elf? Do you think that they would produce reproductively viable off-spring so that they could continue to create more of their kind? I think that they would be because the human factor and they'd have to be at least somewhat compatible on a DNA level but the children might be sterile. But as a race that is out there somewhere in hiding with resentments towards their Elvish, Orcish and possibly even their Human cousins, waiting for their chance to destroy them or maybe be embraced by these cousins of theirs, nah just kill all of them.

What would those stats look like they it they could exist? How would Human, Elves and even Orcs react to them? I think it could be an interesting race to add to the game as possibly as an enemy or even as a playable race or “ancestry".

[doc the grey]

Kalindlara wrote:

David knott 242 wrote:

For half-elves and half-orcs, we have a similar problem if, for example, we decide that a half-elf has a parent who is a drow or a Varisian human. Forget about gaining something from both parents -- you currently have to wait until 5th level to get anything from the distinctive culture of either parent. At 1st level, you are just a generic half-elf/half-human.

Another big slice of my problem. My personal character is, essentially, a tattooed sorcerer. When a Varisian Tattoo feat rolls around, she won't be able to get it (without Ancestral Paragon) because of the half-elf blood price.

Hell you think that's bad, a Half-Orc can't get darkvision till 5th at the earliest and god forbid you're trying to grab up some proficiencies too. I'm still gobsmacked that if I want to make a Half-Orc Barbarian with an orc double axe & darkvision that they are going to have to be 9th!

Seriously, why the hell can't I just get darkvision at 1st with the trait? Dwarves get it, Goblins get it, just give it to the half-orcs as one of the options.

[Aldaron79]

DanceYrself wrote:

I too understand the move, but it also brings up questions as to why its human based and not elf or orc based. In past editions and other game settings, they are almost always their own unique race with their own lore and qualities.

It's Jarring

And all the abilities of the human is... nothing. They get nothing. Other races at least get darkvision.

[Scimmy]

I too am of the feat tax party. You gain minor benefits but you can't start truly exploring the divided nature of your ancestry. As pointed out above weapon familiarity or iconic elf/orc things get pushed to 5th level or beyond before they are even an option. I'm sure it was done for balance reasons, but maybe make the Half ancestries be free then gain the traits as written but also the ability flaw. Then you have immediate access to human and half ancestries. This keeps humans from being an automatic choice and gives them a free ancestry only for taking the half option which also streamlines things like you are aiming for.

[Turgin]

Would it be worth noting that the thought of making Half-Elf and Half-Orc be their own races and allow them to take either one or two Race/Heritage Feats to gain access to the Elf and Human Race choices might be a bit better overall?

If not, how so?

If so, how so?

I guess I like the idea of letting a Human be a Half-Elf or Half-Orc is great, but it's the execution in the book that drives the point home that where any other race gets a Race Feat.

A Half-race needs really two of their very valuable Race Feats to get where they could otherwise have been, if they were both rolled up as base Races, and given options to spread their Race Feats around to let the player customize the Heritage of their given specific character.

[Lucas Yew]

Speaking of the Titular "races", can it be said that the Elf-Human-Orc relations are some sort of ring species?

[pauljathome]

Personally, I think that the solution to much of this is very straight forward. Everybody should start with 2 ancestry feats (doesn't completely solve the problem but goes a very long way towards doing so).

[FormerFiend]

This does strike me as a worse implementation of alternate race traits. And I'm not okay with that.

[ChibiNyan]

I don't think the Ancestry system will survive the playtest as it is right now. They really went overboard in stripping out every Ancestry...

I used to be in the "2 Ancestry Feat" camp, but now I think you need 3 or 4 to actually get anything that resembles your race at level 1. Except Human, I suppose...

[Lanathar]

I am also in the 3 or 4 ancestry feat camp along with the introduction of actual higher level feats so that you are not forced to pick a level 1 one at level 17. As posted above that will be lackluster

But I think those higher level ancestry feats are coming in the main book

What would be interesting is say:

- 4 ancestry feats at level 1
- 8+ to pick from at level 1
- the higher level ones either being expansions (like the weapons) or compeltely stand alone

That way you can have a character that feels different and feels like a unique ancestry flavour but have a chance of being very different every time

[Malthraz]

Feat tax? Half elves are amazing. +5 feet and LLV for 1 feat! Then dip into Elf for Nimble and pick up Fleet with a general feat. 40 ft movement.

So good.

Grab Natural Ambition from your human side.

[Malthraz]

Virellius wrote:

Why can't my half-orc access Orc Weapons at level one? Why does he have to wait FOUR LEVELS to use a weapon he should have grown up knowing about?

It makes 100% no sense.

It's because level 1 characters are no very good at things. Orc weapons are hard.

You think being a half orc teaches sorcerers how to use falchions from level 1? 100% don't agree.

[John Lynch 106]

Steven Constant wrote:

To begin, I see the logic of moving Half-Orc and Half-Elf. But this move is akin to Wizards of the Coast removing the gnome race from D&D 4E - its a bad idea.

I disagree. I just think it's poorly implemented.

Steven Constant wrote:

To play a "standard" race, iconic to the fantasy game, there is a feat tax. The feat tax - One of the huge flaws from D&D 3.5E that translated in Pathfinder RPG.

I strongly agree. I think the half-elf and half Orc feats can be so much better.

Here is my alternative feats:
Half-elf (Heritage Feat 1)
Either one of your parents was an elf, or one or both were half-elves. You have pointed ears and other telltale signs of elf heritage. You lose 2 HP but gain the elf trait and one of the following benefits: elven speed (increase your Speed by 5 feet), elven tongue (add Elven to your list of languages), gifted speaker (you are trained in Diplomacy), or low-light vision (you can see in dim light as well as you can in bright light). In addition, you can gain 1 bonus ancestry feat at 1st level and can select elf, half-elf, and human feats whenever you gain an ancestry feat.

Half-Orc (Heritage Feat 1)
Either one of your parents was an orc, or one or both were half-orcs. You have a green tinge to your skin and other indicators of orc heritage. You gain the orc trait but only gain 1 language instead of 2. Select one of the following benefits: intimidating visage (you are trained in Intimidation), low-light vision (you can see in dim light as well as you can in bright light), orc tongue (add Orcish to your list of languages), or orc toughness (gain 2 Hit Points). In addition, you can gain 1 bonus ancestry feat at 1st level and can select select orc, half-orc, and human feats whenever you gain an ancestry feat.
----
Pros:
They're modular and any race could take these feats as a GM houserule (this is important as tieflings will use the same mechanical structure as half-elves).
They grant a minor "I'm a half" benefit and then an extra feat.

Cons:
You don't get to take this feat multiple times. That's ok. You no longer have to spend a feat to play your ancestry when everyone else gets their ancestry for free.

[Davor Firetusk]

I haven't completely specked out the mechanics, but I kind of like that the system just hardwires alternate racial traits in from the beginning. Given that you do get other benefits for taking the Half-orc or half elf feat its not a dead choice. Perhaps one that needs some adjustment. It also makes it easy to see how they might expand other half human options later which is a nice piece of design.

On the other hand as I was joking with my son with how long some of this takes maybe I can finally get that 0th level character adventure off the ground and run some 2E through level 5.

[Fumarole]

pauljathome wrote:

Personally, I think that the solution to much of this is very straight forward. Everybody should start with 2 ancestry feats (doesn't completely solve the problem but goes a very long way towards doing so).

While I see this as an acceptable solution, there would no doubt still be people complaining that their half-elf is not as powerful as other races.

[Hythlodeus]

Malthraz wrote:

Feat tax? Half elves are amazing. +5 feet and LLV for 1 feat! Then dip into Elf ...

How does one 'dip' ito Elf?

Also, I thought in PF as long as ancestor of yours was an Elf, you were considered a Half-elf? It was not necessary to dip into an Elf to create an Half-elf

[epicmusic42]

The way they currently have it set up, it almost feels like they're wanting us to back off on the number of half-elves and half-orcs that get played-either that or they were after thoughts. Having them hidden inside of Human feats makes it look like they aren't an option, and making players spend their 1st level ancestry feat to be ALLOWED to have mixed blood will likely make it unappealing to newer players. (Like seriously, I don't play humans as a rule and despite reading through the ancestry chapter twice I still didn't catch that half-elf and half-orc were playable races in 2.0. If I were introduced to PF2.0, coming from D&D, I won't know that I could play my half-orc barbarian UNTIL I sat down at a table with someone who's playing a half-elf or half-orc and end up asking what book I need for it).

If they want half-elf and half-orc ancestries to be available with the CRB, then they need to make them separate ancestries, not a special way of playing humans. Now personally, I'm fine with them being removed; bit sad to see them go, but paizo'd have no complaints from me if they removed them from core ancestries entirely and gave me another book a couple months later that let me mix and match ANY two races.

Hopefully they'll see the concern and we'll get half-elf and half-orc as actual ancestries in the official release.

[Cantriped]

My biggest problem at the moment is that for most builds, you would have been better off playing an Elf Adopted By Humans over an actual Half-Elf. Both are 'a feat behind' to access both human and elf feats; namely Natural Ambition, the rest of the human list is garbage. Except the Elf starts with more initial benefits; including actually getting to pick an ancestry feat at 1st level (instead of waiting til 3rd like half-elves must).

[Rysky]

Hythlodeus wrote:

Malthraz wrote:

Feat tax? Half elves are amazing. +5 feet and LLV for 1 feat! Then dip into Elf ...

How does one 'dip' ito Elf?

*opens mouth* … *closes it*

[Almarane]

Kalindlara wrote:

David knott 242 wrote:

For half-elves and half-orcs, we have a similar problem if, for example, we decide that a half-elf has a parent who is a drow or a Varisian human. Forget about gaining something from both parents -- you currently have to wait until 5th level to get anything from the distinctive culture of either parent. At 1st level, you are just a generic half-elf/half-human.

Another big slice of my problem. My personal character is, essentially, a tattooed sorcerer. When a Varisian Tattoo feat rolls around, she won't be able to get it (without Ancestral Paragon) because of the half-elf blood price.

Why not ? Unless I missed something, I don't see anything preventing you from saying that you are a varisian half-elf. You don't need to take an ancestry feat to say "I am varisian".

[Rysky]

Almarane wrote:

Kalindlara wrote:

David knott 242 wrote:

For half-elves and half-orcs, we have a similar problem if, for example, we decide that a half-elf has a parent who is a drow or a Varisian human. Forget about gaining something from both parents -- you currently have to wait until 5th level to get anything from the distinctive culture of either parent. At 1st level, you are just a generic half-elf/half-human.

Another big slice of my problem. My personal character is, essentially, a tattooed sorcerer. When a Varisian Tattoo feat rolls around, she won't be able to get it (without Ancestral Paragon) because of the half-elf blood price.

Why not ? Unless I missed something, I don't see anything preventing you from saying that you are a varisian half-elf. You don't need to take an ancestry feat to say "I am varisian".

You might, and thus the concern.

[Gug on the Silver Mountain]

Almarane wrote:

Why not ? Unless I missed something, I don't see anything preventing you from saying that you are a varisian half-elf. You don't need to take an ancestry feat to say "I am varisian".

Well yeah, you can say your character has traditional tats, but if you want that to actually mean anything (like being the basis of your spells) you'll be behind an actual human, who's character sheet reflects their background. I mean, I can play a half-orc and say I can see in the dark, but the game won't back me up on it till 5th lvl.

[Kalindlara]

Almarane wrote:

Kalindlara wrote:

David knott 242 wrote:

For half-elves and half-orcs, we have a similar problem if, for example, we decide that a half-elf has a parent who is a drow or a Varisian human. Forget about gaining something from both parents -- you currently have to wait until 5th level to get anything from the distinctive culture of either parent. At 1st level, you are just a generic half-elf/half-human.

Another big slice of my problem. My personal character is, essentially, a tattooed sorcerer. When a Varisian Tattoo feat rolls around, she won't be able to get it (without Ancestral Paragon) because of the half-elf blood price.

Why not ? Unless I missed something, I don't see anything preventing you from saying that you are a varisian half-elf. You don't need to take an ancestry feat to say "I am varisian".

[Malthraz]

Hythlodeus wrote:

Malthraz wrote:

Feat tax? Half elves are amazing. +5 feet and LLV for 1 feat! Then dip into Elf ...

How does one 'dip' ito Elf?

Also, I thought in PF as long as ancestor of yours was an Elf, you were considered a Half-elf? It was not necessary to dip into an Elf to create an Half-elf

Just saying: Select "nimble" from the Elf ancestry feat.

Half elf gives you access to a lot of feats. A lot.

Rysky wrote:

*opens mouth* … *closes it*

Cheeky!

[Grimcleaver]

Having half-orcs and half-elves under the human banner is a neat move. I approve. I got a little confused scrolling through the document however because the order of presentation made it hard for me to find the human ancestry feats and for the first couple of passes I was fairly convinced that humans didn't get one. That probably needs looked at.

I've always felt like half-elf and half-orc work best as templates rather than races in their own right. Both are supposed to be devilishly rare in the setting lore anyway.

Half-orcs are the unfortunate results of orc raids on the edges of civilization and are more often a monster than a PC race, since the child is often sired with a captive and raised with the tribe. Those half-orcs that dare live in human lands are detested and relegated to garbage collectors and rat-catchers, their very visage brings upwellings of pain and fear and hatred.

Elves are so rare as a race it's surprising to see them in a core rulebook. Most live on another planet. Those that live on Golarion live in a single city hidden by magic. The rest are rootless drifters and outcasts doomed to watch everyone else age and die in front of them--and there's not many. The number of these elves that decide to settle down with a human who's rotting away to entropy in front of their eyes? And start a family? So they can have a child that they will just have to watch die? That feels like a rarity within a rarity within another rarity.

The setting is probably better without them--but if they're going to be in the books, having them be a feat for humans to buy seems a fair enough way to do it.

I just hope they can reorganize the section so they don't bury the list of human ancestry feats.

[Gug on the Silver Mountain]

Grimcleaver wrote:

I've always felt like half-elf and half-orc work best as templates rather than races in their own right. Both are supposed to be devilishly rare in the setting lore anyway.
...
The rest are rootless drifters and outcasts doomed to watch everyone else age and die in front of them--and there's not many. The number of these elves that decide to settle down with a human who's rotting away to entropy in front of their eyes? And start a family? So they can have a child that they will just have to watch die? That feels like a rarity within a rarity within another rarity.

1) If you don't count the Growing communities in the Iron Archipelago and on the Isle of Kortos for Half orcs, plus the popularity of half-orc gladiators in just about any city with an arena.

and 2) I feel bad for breaking this to you, but you don't need to settle down or decide to start a family to create a child. Those drifters and outcasts need to do something on all those centuries of cold winter nights. How many half elves do you think a Calistrian could farther in 500 years of adulthood? Even one deciding that Bachelor's snuff was too expensive or they didn't like the side effects, and you couldn't exactly call half elves rare.
3) Both Cross bloods breed true, I'm sure I've read your as likely to have only one or two similarly 'half' parents than be the direct offspring of a human and a member of another ancestry.