Caster Level Checks not being attack rolls, Spell Resistance, Sanctuary, touch attacks and harmless spells


Rules Questions


Sanctuary is a spell that breaks if its subject attacks.
A rules states "All offensive combat actions, even those that don’t damage opponents, are considered attacks."

1/ What happens if a character under Sanctuary casts a harmless spell at an enemy? For example, use a Cleric casting a Cure Light Wounds spell, which has the harmless tag, using Reach metamagics on a living opponent that isn't at full H.P. who is engaged in a combat to the death with the party, including the Cleric.
- the goal isn't to debate the wisdom of such an act^^, maybe the player absolutely wants to make use of the trait Insistent Benefactor while no one in the party has Spell Resistance, cf. infra -
I understand Sanctuary will not break in this case as this isn't an attack.

2/ What if Reach metamagics aren't used, the range is back to touch? Is a touch attack necessary? Assuming the opponent doesn't know any spellcraft and doesn't want to be touched by the Cleric he has just seen cast something, I understand a touch attack is necessary. Does such an attack break Sanctuary?
My understanding is that it does break as trying to touch the opponent is an attack.

3.a/ Now the main case, assume once again Reach metamagics and this time the opponent has Spell Resistance. Does the Caster Level Check break Sanctuary?
My understanding is that it does break on the ground that this is clearly an offensive action even though Caster Level Checks are not attack rolls.

3.b/ [Included in the case where my understanding of 3.a is incorrect] Same as 3.a but Spell Resistance isn't a trap for a P.C. who has it, as it can be decided on the fly to lower just for a specific spell, much like deciding to fail a save on purpose.
In this case, I understand Sanctuary would break.

There are hence cases where having to perform a Caster Level Check is an attack yet they are not attack rolls. This doesn't sit well with me so I turn to you. What are your thoughts on the matter?


Are you asking if healing is an offensive combat action? Because the answer is no. That "even those that don’t damage opponents" is for stuff like Hold Person.


So you think Sanctuary wouldn't break in any of the four cases above?


I'm gonna be honest, everything you said was super convoluted. But it looks like you asking about healing someone while under the effects of Sanctuary. So no, healing is not going to break Sanctuary. If you're casting, like, Cure Light Wounds on a zombie, that'll break it because healing harms undead, but otherwise you'll be fine.


Here's the entire section:

Magic wrote:
Attacks: Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don't damage opponents, are considered attacks. Attempts to channel energy count as attacks if it would harm any creatures in the area. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don't harm anyone.

Cure light wounds affords a saving throw, and an enemy who fails to make their Spellcraft check to identify the spell will almost certainly attempt a saving throw against the spell. That makes it an attack, per above.


I haven't expressed myself correctly. My main point isn't about CLW and only tangentially about Sanctuary. It is about whether attempting a Caster Level Check to beat Spell Resistance is an attack.

The initial descriptions were just to establish the premises without ambiguity.


Attempting to pierce the spell resistance of your allies is not an attack, no.


Agénor wrote:

I haven't expressed myself correctly. My main point isn't about CLW and only tangentially about Sanctuary. It is about whether attempting a Caster Level Check to beat Spell Resistance is an attack.

The initial descriptions were just to establish the premises without ambiguity.

Not in and of itself, no. Whatever prompted the caster level check to overcome spell resistance usually is an attack, though. Assuming we're still talking about an enemy, anyway--two living monk/clerics each with spell resistance and sanctuary can attempt to cure light wounds each other with no problems other than spell resistance getting in the way.


Agénor wrote:

I haven't expressed myself correctly. My main point isn't about CLW and only tangentially about Sanctuary. It is about whether attempting a Caster Level Check to beat Spell Resistance is an attack.

The initial descriptions were just to establish the premises without ambiguity.

It depends on what you are trying to do.

If you have to ask, it is probably an attack.


blahpers wrote:

Not in and of itself, no.

Thank you for your clear answer. This is what I needed.

Could you please point me to rules that state so or explain how you've reached your conclusion so I can use said point myself?

dragonhunterq wrote:

It depends on what you are trying to do.

If you have to ask, it is probably an attack.

I believe it doesn't depend on what I am trying to achieve in the greater scheme of things and how my current action fits in there. It depends on whether my current action is an attack.

Maybe I have a special power that turns me into an invincible combat machine if I cast a spell on an opponent without breaking Sanctuary, maybe I am just a fool. Ulterior motives and hindsight are irrelevant to whether my action is an attack. Say my action is casting a purely beneficial spell that gives no saving throw at an opponent that has spell resistance. Since attempting to beat SR isn't an attack, Sanctuary doesn't break. Otherwise, it would break just the same if I summon a monster right next to the opponent to him, since the intent here is clearly bellicose.

Sovereign Court

Generally if you have to make an attack roll, or the target needs to make a save (even if it is a harmless spell) it would count for breaking sanctuary and other similar effects (ie invisibility).


Quote:
Could you please point me to rules that state so or explain how you've reached your conclusion so I can use said point myself?

?

Because the likely hood of you being required to make an SR check while it is also not an offensive action is rare and circumstantial. I.e. an ally has not lowered their SR (for whatever reason) but is targeted by an ally/friends spell anyway.

In your 3a the overall act might be offensive but the fact the target has SR is just another factor in deciding whether the outcome is successful but is not in and of itself relevant to whether it is an offensive act or not.


If the target has to make a saving throw then yes.

Example:If you cast cure light wounds on an ally then it's not an attack.

If you cast the same spell on a zombie then it's an attack.

If you cast it on an unwillingly ally I'd say it counts as an attack because they'd try to resist the spell.

So basically if you try to do something to someone which would be taken as an offensive action it's an attack.

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