Spheres of Might question [Barrage Sphere and rapid shot]

[mekka2000]

Hello, I have a question...

The barrage sphere give you this :

Barrage: As a special attack action, you may make two ranged attacks at your full base attack bonus -2. Associated Feat: Rapid Shot.

But Rapid Shot is :

When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round at your highest bonus. All of your attack rolls take a –2 penalty when using Rapid Shot.

1st question. Do you gain the associated feat and can do both ?

2nd question. If "Barrage" replaces Rapid Shot, isn't it more limited ?
You can't do 5 attacks at (for example) +18/+18/+13/+8/+3 (full attack) but only +18/+18 as a "special attack action" ?

Is Barrage a nerfed and simplified Rapid Shot ?

[Emo Duck]

1: Looking at the "associated feat" mechanic at http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/using-spheres-of-might, having the Barrage base sphere counts as having the Rapid Shot feat for the purpose of prerequisites. It does not give you the feat's functionality on top of what the Barrage sphere ability itself does, but it helps to make you qualify for the Snap Shot feat, for example.

2: You can still take the Rapid Shot feat and use it as normal. The feat and the sphere ability serve two different tactical purposes: Rapid Shot allows you to make an extra attack when you perform a full attack (i.e. just shooting, not moving). Barrage allows you to make an extra attack when you perform a regular attack as a standard action (i.e. moving and shoot).

Until you get your first iterative attack, it would seem that Barrage is the better option. From there, it depends on your tactical situation.

[mekka2000]

It's strange that the talent doesn't give the functionality of the feat.

Is there other talents like this ?

I just read somewhere else that Barrage is not associated to rapid shot and should be errataed (post by Adam Meyer), so, it was a mistake.

[Emo Duck]

mekka2000 wrote:

It's strange that the talent doesn't give the functionality of the feat.

Is there other talents like this ?

I just read somewhere else that Barrage is not associated to rapid shot and should be errataed (post by Adam Meyer), so, it was a mistake.

Well, getting the Barrage base sphere doesn't prevent you from taking the Rapid Shot feat anyway, so there's at least that...

[GM Rednal]

Essentially, Associated Feats are for things that overlap with the function of a talent. It's mainly for prerequisites, but it's also a way to pick up talents if you'd normally be forced to take the feat and want the talent instead. As Emo Duck noted, you cannot use Barrage and Rapid Shot at the same time since they involve different types of actions.

Barrage is not outright worse than Rapid Shot at higher levels. In Spheres of Might, you're basically trading damage for debuffs and other effects - you can still make full attacks if you want to, but to get the most from your talents, you won't be making as many attacks each turn. That's how the system is intended to work. When all you really need to do is deal damage, then by all means, make as many attacks as you can. Against tougher foes, though, it may be more useful to start hitting them with attack penalties, restricting their movement, and generally preventing them from making the most of their own powers.

[SorrySleeping]

Spheres of Power tries to push combat into standard actions. It tries to get away from full turn attacks as much as possible. I think that Barrage might be the only full turn thing that got transformed into something that isn't, but I can't remember all the spheres off the top of my head.

Sphere of power is balanced around being able to move and attack, and that standard action attack not sucking.

[Michael Sayre]

Emo Duck wrote:

1: Looking at the "associated feat" mechanic at http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/using-spheres-of-might, having the Barrage base sphere counts as having the Rapid Shot feat for the purpose of prerequisites. It does not give you the feat's functionality on top of what the Barrage sphere ability itself does, but it helps to make you qualify for the Snap Shot feat, for example.

2: You can still take the Rapid Shot feat and use it as normal. The feat and the sphere ability serve two different tactical purposes: Rapid Shot allows you to make an extra attack when you perform a full attack (i.e. just shooting, not moving). Barrage allows you to make an extra attack when you perform a regular attack as a standard action (i.e. moving and shoot).

Until you get your first iterative attack, it would seem that Barrage is the better option. From there, it depends on your tactical situation.

Was going to pop in and respond, but I see that the question has already been covered.

The primary reason for Barrage counting as Rapid Shot is that there are feats that don't require a full attack action but do require you to have Rapid Shot, and rather than needing to convert all of those into talents, it's more effective to just allow Barrage to open that door. There was some back and forth early on about whether or not talents should have associated feats if the talent doesn't do exactly what the feat does, but the last time I talked to Adam he was pretty adamant about Barrage needing the associated feat for the sphere to have the level of functionality and compatibility we wanted for it.

[mekka2000]

Thank you, I understand better !

Have anyone tried to play with spheres of might with removing iterative attacks as an houserule ?

[GM Rednal]

Possibly? That's really not how the system is meant to work, though. Iteratives are important when you need to do pure damage at higher levels. If anything, removing iterative attacks would probably just lead to people taking Barrage or Dual Wielding more often so they can get those extra attacks in.