Hiding within Figment Illusions? (Or, are figments hollow?)


Advice


I didn't have any luck with this in the Rules forum so I'm trying here.

So, as per RAW, "figments cannot make something seem to be something else". To what extent does this affect a figment's ability to hide or conceal something/someone? I know you can't make a trap door seem like part of the floor, but you could create a rug that covers that part of the floor. And I know you could make an area of trees with a canopy of branches and leaves that conceals a party from say, a dragon flying above.

But, can you create a hollow figment that conceals one or more persons within? Such as, a large boulder, a carriage, the legs of a giant, or a suit of armor? One of my players argues that these examples don't alter the appearance of the PC (or PCs), so they should be allowed. I think the first two examples might be feasible, but the latter two seem to be a bit of a stretch.

Any thoughts to help clarify would be much appreciated!


I think I would personally have to adjudicate as a DM whether the spell was providing effective invisibility at a drastically reduced spell slot, and if this was a fair thing to allow in the situation. If the spell used is far below cost for the value expected, I think I would have to say that particular spell may not create an illusion which shares space with any other illusion or real object, to the extent that you may hide behind the illusion of the tree but not within it.


Shiroi wrote:
I think I would personally have to adjudicate as a DM whether the spell was providing effective invisibility at a drastically reduced spell slot, and if this was a fair thing to allow in the situation. If the spell used is far below cost for the value expected, I think I would have to say that particular spell may not create an illusion which shares space with any other illusion or real object, to the extent that you may hide behind the illusion of the tree but not within it.

I'm thinking specifically of Major Image, which is 3rd level, while Invisibility is only 2nd level. Part of me likes the simplicity of simply saying that Major Image provides cover/concealment by hiding behind or under something, like the canopy of trees, but not within a boulder. But there's also something elegant about creating an image of a horse-drawn carriage and the Party using it to sneak inside an enemy camp, for example. Carriages are hollow, after all. Of course, so are suits of armor, but that just seems to be too much of a stretch for a figment.


Perhaps then the simplest ruling for you to avoid having to individually decide would be something along the lines of 'any illusion which fully encompasses and contains all spaces occupied by the creature, rounded up...'


According to Skip Williams, who is considered highly knowledgeable but is not, of course, definitive, you can do that with a figment.

All About Illusions, Part Four wrote:
A figment can't make the party look like they aren't there. It can, however, make them a place to hide. You could use a figment spell to make an illusory house, a grove of trees (with leafy branches for concealment), or even a hill or big rock. The party will be concealed so long as the characters stay underneath the illusion.


I believe the difference with between a figment and a glamer as far as "Figments cannot make something seem to be something else" really comes down to two things:

1 is a Figment has to be perceivable you can't make a figment of an empty room and expect it to cover up something that is in the room, you would have to actually make something visible to block the viewers line of sight (ext. for other senses) and

2 a Figment, unlike a glamer, won't be attached to a subject. You might could make a figment of a robed mage and hide with it but it wouldn't move its arms when you moved your arms, it's lips wouldn't move if you spoke and that sort of thing.


Sure, but you can often make the figment move in such a fashion. Even silent image lets you move the thing.


Synchronising people and moving figments would require a script set up in advance IMO. I don't think you could reasonably expect to make that work off the cuff.


I'd allow it, of course that is just me. Silent Image gives you a minimum of 5 ten foot cubes to work with. That is 10ft high, 10ft wide, 10ft tall.

As PCs occupy 5ft squares you can comfortable fit four of them within a single 10ft cube if my math isn't wrong. We have a minimum of 5 of these cubes, meaning we could hide about 20 people with a single silent image spell.

Now, lets scale this back to just 5 people for a moment as I lay out a scenerio. The party is inside a large cave, 50ftx50ft or larger. Placing these 10ft by 10ft cubes side by side to each other along a single wall, the Wizard uses silent image to create an illusionary wall. Now, the cave appears to be 50 long by 40ft wide, as silent image has made a new side wall to the cave. That portion of the cave still exists, and since the PCs know it exists they can freely pass through the wall segment into this 50x10 segment that, to the outside, looks just like the usual cave wall.

Of course, it will only last as long as our spellcaster can maintain concentration, so thats entirely GM fiat. We can throw concentration checks at our caster whenever they attempt to maintain concentration and check off any of the usual boxes for concentration checks. Of course, you can't really eat or sleep while doing a concentration check so you can't keep it up indefinately. It doesn't automatically move with the party, so the party needs to be coordinated if they are moving around. It detects as magic too, so its fairly obvious if folks wander around using even the most basic of safety precautions. That whole wall radiates magic, or those 5 boulders are magic, is a pretty good sign of trouble. The Wizard can only take move actions as they are concentrating regardless so they are moving at half speed. Unlike Invisibility, the Silent Image can be disbelieved on a will save either from interacting with it or from obtaining proof that it is an illusion. Such as someone else successfully interacting with the illusion (you require no save upon seeing proof, like seeing someone walk through a wall or shoot a projectile through it).

Basically, if the party wants to hide out inside of Boulders and other objects thats a-ok. Adjust your GM tactics as appropriate, have enemies use detect magic, make knowledge/survival checks about the terrain, and make sure you make the Wizard describe any time they move or change the illusion.

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