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The Beast Rider Cavalier Archetype, once it hits Level 4, has a major problem for most (All Medium) Riders.
...At 4th level, a Medium beast rider can also choose an allosaurus, ankylosaurus, arsinoitherium, aurochs, bison, brachiosaurus, elephant, glyptodon, hippopotamus, lion, mastodon, megaloceros, giant snapping turtle, tiger, triceratops, or tyrannosaurus as his mount.
Note that none of these animals, as Animal Companions, are bigger than Medium at Level 4, None.
So you can choose one and ride it undersized with penalties right? Wrong.The animal chosen as a mount must be large enough to carry the beast rider (Medium or Large for a Small character; Large or Huge for a Medium character).
You cannot choose any of these on the list, because none of them could support a Medium rider. Small Riders have a slightly difference list, however, because they are small, get off scot-free. It's only broken for Medium riders, and not the OP kind of broken.
Until Level 7, a Medium Beast Rider gains NO benefit & loses a class feature long before then.I have read in other FAQ requests of this same question that the lists were made how they were made to avoid having a separate list for each size, which has lead to a large oversight in the archetype, leaving it, unplayable as intended.
Did Paizo perchance mean for it to be interpreted the other way around?
With it being, "Once you select something from the list, it becomes large to compensate for the requirement."? (Doesn't state it, but would solve the issue.)
Maybe the size requirement was stated as a reminder that you take penalties if the mount is inappropriately sized, but the statement accidentally made it impossible to do?
Does it intend, "You can choose something from the list, but not mount it?" (Unlikely, it's a archetype with 'Rider' in the name for Cavalier)
Or are "Medium rider's simply docked & forced to keep a horse until Level 7, leaving them without a class feature for the first 6?"? (Outrageous.)
Does anyone have any missed insight? The last request for this FAQ was in January, and there are nearly yearly requests for it since 2011 to no avail. Can we can a Paizo intervention maybe now?
its not unplayable. its not as if you cant use the normal mounts till level 7 if you're medium.
I get that you're asking for a faq, and its one i wouldn't mind seeing myself, but the exaggeration doesn't help anything. There's the undersized mount feat you could take and retrain later, if you really wanted, but otherwise, some archetypes just don't pay off till later, and given the power increase for minimal loss with this one, its hardly the end of the world for that to be the case.
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There's the undersized mount feat you could take and retrain later, if you really wanted...
This is literally why theres an undersized mount feat.
Did you miss one of the most stressed point of this requiring an errata that I mentioned?
The animal chosen as a mount must be large enough to carry the beast rider (Medium or Large for a Small character; Large or Huge for a Medium character).
This wording means that even Undersized Mount doesn't let you do that, because it specifies the size. Without this line of text, one could just take it & ride it with penalties or not, but because of the RAW wording, NONE can be taken.
That fact is the main reason for this requiring a FAQ, because a given option, is not an option.
What you seem to be failing to take into account is that the rule is allowing a 4th level character to have an elephant, Tyrannosaurus, Giant snapping turtle, etc in the first place.
That's pretty damn significant even if you count it as a medium Tyrannosaurus.
Compare to most cavilers who get a horse.
Also, the undersize mount feat would work. It's a more specific rule so it trumps the more generic rule of the mount needing to be one category larger.
Also per "ride" -If you attempt to ride a creature that is ill suited as a mount, you take a –5 penalty on your Ride checks.
So at most you ride your medium sized Tyrannosaurus with a -5 to your ride checks. For a whopping 3 levels before he gets Large.
Personally I think this is a far more contradictory quote:
"A beast rider cannot choose a mount that is not capable of bearing his weight, that has fewer than four legs"
How many legs does a Tyrannosaurus have?
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Also, the undersize mount feat would work. It's a more specific rule so it trumps the more generic rule of the mount needing to be one category larger
The issue is that taking the feat doesn't change this part:
...(Medium or Large for a Small character; Large or Huge for a Medium character)
Because it states that Explicitly, it is to say 'It must be Large or Huge for medium riders, period.' That's why, without that specific part Undersized Mount WOULD work.
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You take feats that allow you to bend the rules. So when a rule says a wizard needs a spell book and you take a feat that allows you to cast a spell without one, the rules are bent.
So in this case, undersized mount should still be enough to work, must or no. You can always use the common sense rule.
Sadly 'Rules as Written' trump 'Rules as Intended' or 'Common Sense'
ESPECIALLY in Organized Play.
Feyesh,
The purpose of feats is to overwrite normal rules and abilities. The feat is more specific, therefore trumps the previous rule.
That's how feats work.
I think the feat undersized mount should be sufficient.
as stated previously
At 4th level, a Medium beast rider can also choose an allosaurus, ankylosaurus, arsinoitherium, aurochs, bison, brachiosaurus, elephant, glyptodon, hippopotamus, lion, mastodon, megaloceros, giant snapping turtle, tiger, triceratops, or tyrannosaurus as his mount.
Also,
The animal chosen as a mount must be large enough to carry the beast rider (Medium or Large for a Small character; Large or Huge for a Medium character)
Undersized mount then states
Benefit: You can ride creatures of your size category, although encumbrance or other factors might limit how you can use this ability.
Normal: Typically a mount suited for you is at least one size category larger than you.
You'll notice that the "normal" section for undersized mount is inline with the part in brackets in the exotic mount ability. Both are stating the same thing, normally a mount must be one size category larger. Exotic mount only states that the mount must be big enough to carry the beast rider. Undersized mount says you can ride medium mounts. So, there is no violation. The feat makes medium mounts "big enough" to ride for a medium rider.
first, i agree with everyone that says that the undersized mount feat works.
second, even if it didn't, i'm not sure that's a big deal. if you're medium, you either take a horse until 7 or you buy a horse at 4 and have an exotic animal companion that you're rearing as a mount. seems fine.
first, i agree with everyone that says that the undersized mount feat works.
second, even if it didn't, i'm not sure that's a big deal. if you're medium, you either take a horse until 7 or you buy a horse at 4 and have an exotic animal companion that you're rearing as a mount. seems fine.
well, I think the issue is that because of the way it's worded, you can't get it at all as an animal companion, even if you never plan on riding it until you hit 7th level. So a medium character gets an ability at 4th level which they are forbidden from using unless they have a feat or have extra "effective druid levels" thanks to multiclassing.
ah i see what you mean. still i think it's intentional. you still have an option at level 4 that you didn't have before. you can retrain undersized mount at 7.
The information in parenthesis isn't really meant to be limiting anyway. That's just an example using the current rules of the time. For example, a tiny creature could still take a small creature as a mount, even though that option wasn't listed in the examples.
But this archetype is about 3 years older than undersized mount. So, the original intent was for you to just use a traditional mount for those levels, which isn't awful.
"Each time the beast rider increases in level, he can choose to select a new, more impressive mount better suited to his increased power."
It is of course possible to be a 4th level beast rider and have a mount that has reached its seventh level of advancement, since multiclassing is a thing.
Giving extra options, even if you can't take them yet, doesn't cost you something.