How many HD of undead can each class get individually?


Advice

Liberty's Edge

I can't seem to find any reference on forums or anywhere really. i know the maximum possible if you mulitclass, and the maximum for occultist specifically, but I'm looking for Witch (gravewalker archetype) specifically and wondering if anyone has any easy ideas that still get large amounts of HD available.

P.s. sorry if this is in the wrong place. Not very familiar with how forums work because i'm usually just reading other people's posts not making my own.

Thanks ahead of time peeps


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Gravewalker Witch3/Juju Oracle4/AgentoftheGrave5/MysticTheurge8 = maximum possible undead. It's like 300 HD of Undead or some ridiculous amount in your army.

But generally, the class that can get the most individually is probably Juju Oracle because their Animate Dead is 6HD per CL instead of 4HD.

Gravewalker Witch is a great choice for a necromancer. Aura of Desecration is really cool with the poppet mechanic. They get hex-starved though in the early game, so you may want to make up for that with one or two Extra Hex feats. Get Undead Master feat and Extend Spell MM feat for maximum durations on your Command Undead juggling. As far as getting a huge horde of mobs, that just comes down to Caster Level boosting. So Spell Spec, Varisian Tattoo, Spell Perfection, Orange Prism Ioun Stone, etc. I dont think having a Coven can help you because the CL needs to be maintained at all times or the Undead start falling out of control. Essentially, they would have to Aid Another on you for 24 hours a day.


Ryze Kuja wrote:

Gravewalker Witch3/Juju Oracle4/AgentoftheGrave5/MysticTheurge8 = maximum possible undead. It's like 300 HD of Undead or some ridiculous amount in your army.

But generally, the class that can get the most individually is probably Juju Oracle because their Animate Dead is 6HD per CL instead of 4HD.

Gravewalker Witch is a great choice for a necromancer. Aura of Desecration is really cool with the poppet mechanic. They get hex-starved though in the early game, so you may want to make up for that with one or two Extra Hex feats. Get Undead Master feat and Extend Spell MM feat for maximum durations on your Command Undead juggling. As far as getting a huge horde of mobs, that just comes down to Caster Level boosting. So Spell Spec, Varisian Tattoo, Spell Perfection, Orange Prism Ioun Stone, etc. I dont think having a Coven can help you because the CL needs to be maintained at all times or the Undead start falling out of control. Essentially, they would have to Aid Another on you for 24 hours a day.

a vial of fine sized undead witches?


doomman47 wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:

Gravewalker Witch3/Juju Oracle4/AgentoftheGrave5/MysticTheurge8 = maximum possible undead. It's like 300 HD of Undead or some ridiculous amount in your army.

But generally, the class that can get the most individually is probably Juju Oracle because their Animate Dead is 6HD per CL instead of 4HD.

Gravewalker Witch is a great choice for a necromancer. Aura of Desecration is really cool with the poppet mechanic. They get hex-starved though in the early game, so you may want to make up for that with one or two Extra Hex feats. Get Undead Master feat and Extend Spell MM feat for maximum durations on your Command Undead juggling. As far as getting a huge horde of mobs, that just comes down to Caster Level boosting. So Spell Spec, Varisian Tattoo, Spell Perfection, Orange Prism Ioun Stone, etc. I dont think having a Coven can help you because the CL needs to be maintained at all times or the Undead start falling out of control. Essentially, they would have to Aid Another on you for 24 hours a day.

a vial of fine sized undead witches?

That means they would be intelligent undead and probably wouldn't be happy with being stuck in a vial all day :P They would get daily saves to break your control over them, and if they save once, part of your Undead Army becomes uncontrolled :P And now you have a fine-sized intelligent undead Witch who wants to kill you too :P


Ryze Kuja wrote:

Gravewalker Witch3/Juju Oracle4/AgentoftheGrave5/MysticTheurge8 = maximum possible undead. It's like 300 HD of Undead or some ridiculous amount in your army.

So I'm trying to figure out how this works exactly.

Gravewalker Witch 3: Bonethrall gives you an ability that works on the witche's caster level identical to Command Undead. So you either get to command 3HD or 17HD depending on your reading here. Your witch CL is going to be 3 from class, another 8 from MT (but only for the purpose of casting spells, not class abilities?), and you'll be a Oracle 4 + Agent of the Grave 5 -1 for lost progression + MT 8 +1 for Prestigious Spellcaster = 17 Oracle CL.

So a command undead effect of 3 or 17 HD? Plus CL bonuses from other sources?

Juju Oracle: Spirit Vessel Revelation: you get 6 HD/level from Animate Dead instead of 4HD/level. Same CL calc as above but you get double from Agent of the Dead levels so 17+5= 22CL x 6HD= 132HD.

Undead Servatude: Gives you channels to use for Command Undead, and the Command Undead feat. Since this isn't a spell, AotG doesn't double. Command Undead says Cleric Level but its tied to the class that gives you channel, so 4 HD? Neither Mystic Theurge or Agent of the Grave affect feats, just CL.

Agent of the Grave: gets to count his AotG levels twice with spells like Animate Dead. Already counted in above.

Animate Dead: Works on CL of caster. I can't see a reasonable argument why the source of the class involved of the Animate Dead spell would matter, since its the exact same spell regardless of source. Ultimately, your CL from different sources shouldn't 'stack', you should just use your highest CL for the purpose of this spell. Anyone disagree? And please provide your line of reasoning if you can come up with one.

Lesser Animate Dead: create 1 zombie or skeleton. AotG should work for this so 1 creature of up to 22HD.

So 132HD from Animate Dead, 1-22HD dead from Lesser Animate Dead, 4 HD from Undead Servitude, and 3HD or 17HD from Gravewalker?

Anything that adds more CL will up the undead from Animate Dead (+6HD/level), Lesser Animate Dead, and Gravewalker. It will not affect Undead Servitude since its based on class level.

So did I miss anything?


Ryze Kuja wrote:
doomman47 wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:

Gravewalker Witch3/Juju Oracle4/AgentoftheGrave5/MysticTheurge8 = maximum possible undead. It's like 300 HD of Undead or some ridiculous amount in your army.

But generally, the class that can get the most individually is probably Juju Oracle because their Animate Dead is 6HD per CL instead of 4HD.

Gravewalker Witch is a great choice for a necromancer. Aura of Desecration is really cool with the poppet mechanic. They get hex-starved though in the early game, so you may want to make up for that with one or two Extra Hex feats. Get Undead Master feat and Extend Spell MM feat for maximum durations on your Command Undead juggling. As far as getting a huge horde of mobs, that just comes down to Caster Level boosting. So Spell Spec, Varisian Tattoo, Spell Perfection, Orange Prism Ioun Stone, etc. I dont think having a Coven can help you because the CL needs to be maintained at all times or the Undead start falling out of control. Essentially, they would have to Aid Another on you for 24 hours a day.

a vial of fine sized undead witches?
That means they would be intelligent undead and probably wouldn't be happy with being stuck in a vial all day :P They would get daily saves to break your control over them, and if they save once, part of your Undead Army becomes uncontrolled :P And now you have a fine-sized intelligent undead Witch who wants to kill you too :P

as fine sized creatures the vial may actually be one of the safer spots for them and if they are your coven they probably wouldn't mind traveling with out everywhere it would allow them to see the world especially in places they normally couldn't go as well as see all the events in the world unfold right before their eyes so they can plan and meddle much more effectively which is a very witch thing to do.

Liberty's Edge

doomman47 wrote:

Gravewalker Witch3/Juju Oracle4/AgentoftheGrave5/MysticTheurge8 = maximum possible undead. It's like 300 HD of Undead or some ridiculous amount in your army.

But generally, the class that can get the most individually is probably Juju Oracle because their Animate Dead is 6HD per CL instead of 4HD.

Gravewalker Witch is a great choice for a necromancer. Aura of Desecration is really cool with the poppet mechanic. They get hex-starved though in the early game, so you may want to make up for that with one or two Extra Hex feats. Get Undead Master feat and Extend Spell MM feat for maximum durations on your Command Undead juggling. As far as getting a huge horde of mobs, that just comes down to Caster Level boosting. So Spell Spec, Varisian Tattoo, Spell Perfection, Orange Prism Ioun Stone, etc. I dont think having a Coven can help you because the CL needs to be maintained at all times or the Undead start falling out of control. Essentially, they would have to Aid Another on you for 24 hours a day.

awesome thank you. sorry it took so long to look at this again.

does anyone have suggestions on which patron i should use? having a tough time deciding with the spells missing due to being a gravewalker


Drakes4me wrote:

awesome thank you. sorry it took so long to look at this again.

does anyone have suggestions on which patron i should use? having a tough time deciding with the spells missing due to being a gravewalker

Uhhh you gave the quote credit to the wrong person.


Meirril wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:

Gravewalker Witch3/Juju Oracle4/AgentoftheGrave5/MysticTheurge8 = maximum possible undead. It's like 300 HD of Undead or some ridiculous amount in your army.

So I'm trying to figure out how this works exactly.

Gravewalker Witch 3: Bonethrall gives you an ability that works on the witche's caster level identical to Command Undead. So you either get to command 3HD or 17HD depending on your reading here. Your witch CL is going to be 3 from class, another 8 from MT (but only for the purpose of casting spells, not class abilities?), and you'll be a Oracle 4 + Agent of the Grave 5 -1 for lost progression + MT 8 +1 for Prestigious Spellcaster = 17 Oracle CL.

So a command undead effect of 3 or 17 HD? Plus CL bonuses from other sources?

Juju Oracle: Spirit Vessel Revelation: you get 6 HD/level from Animate Dead instead of 4HD/level. Same CL calc as above but you get double from Agent of the Dead levels so 17+5= 22CL x 6HD= 132HD.

Undead Servatude: Gives you channels to use for Command Undead, and the Command Undead feat. Since this isn't a spell, AotG doesn't double. Command Undead says Cleric Level but its tied to the class that gives you channel, so 4 HD? Neither Mystic Theurge or Agent of the Grave affect feats, just CL.

Agent of the Grave: gets to count his AotG levels twice with spells like Animate Dead. Already counted in above.

Animate Dead: Works on CL of caster. I can't see a reasonable argument why the source of the class involved of the Animate Dead spell would matter, since its the exact same spell regardless of source. Ultimately, your CL from different sources shouldn't 'stack', you should just use your highest CL for the purpose of this spell. Anyone disagree? And please provide your line of reasoning if you can come up with one.

Lesser Animate Dead: create 1 zombie or skeleton. AotG should work for this so 1 creature of up to 22HD.

So 132HD from Animate Dead, 1-22HD dead from Lesser Animate Dead, 4 HD from Undead Servitude, and 3HD or...

Yeah, Bonethrall is Caster Level based, but Command Undead (Undead Servitude) is Class Level based. So Bonethrall will go up with each Caster Level increase as well as with items that increase CL, like Orange Prism Ioun Stone, but Command Undead would be based off your Oracle Level.

You normally have 3 different buckets of Undead: Animate Dead, Command Undead (feat), and Command Undead (spell). However, this GravewalkerWitch3/JujuOracle4/AotG5/MT8 build essentially breaks all those rules.

The way I understand how it works is that Animate Dead is a Divine Spell, but there's also an Arcane version of the same spell, so that creates two individual Animate Dead "buckets". Bonethrall is a class ability that emulates Command Undead Feat, and Undead Servitude actually gives you the Command Undead feat, but these are also two separate things so they would also stack. And then you have the Command Undead Spell, which is Arcane only.

So what this looks like:

Witch Animate Dead bucket = Witch CL x 4HD Undead
Oracle Animate Dead bucket = Oracle CL x 6HD Undead
Bonethrall = Overall CL x HD
Command Undead (Undead Servitude) = Oracle Level x HD
Command Undead (Spell) = Unlimited HD Undead, controlling them for 1day/level (this is the juggling act of a Necromancer character)


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So here's the build order:

Any race, max out Int and Cha. Cha is key ability modifier in this build, so pump this higher than Int. Get Magical Knack Trait (Choose Oracle)
1: Juju Oracle 1: Undead Servitude Revelation (Command Undead as a bonus feat), Feat: Spell focus (necromancy), + any feat you want if you go Human
2: Juju Oracle 2:
3: Juju Oracle 3: Revelation: Spirit Vessels, Feat: Spell Specialization (animate dead, lesser)
4: Juju Oracle 4: 2nd lvl Oracle Spells
5: Witch1 (Gravewalker Archetype) Bonethrall acts exactly as Command Undead feat, but isn't the feat. Feat: Metamagic or Extra Hex
6: Witch 2: Hex: Coven
7: Witch 3: Familiar becomes Poppet for touch attacks at 25ft within Aura of Desecration. 2nd lvl Witch spells. Feat: Metamagic or Extra Hex
8: Mystic Theurge 1:
9: Mystic Theurge 2: Feat: Varisian Tattoo (Necromancy), change Spell Specialization to animate dead (at this point you can create up to (3+2+2+1)CL*4= 32HD of undead as a Witch and (4+2+2+2+1)*6= 66HD as a Juju Oracle using animate dead

At lvl 9:
Caster level is 3Witch + 2(Mystic Theurge) + 2(Spell Spec) +1(Varisian Tattoo)= 8*4 = 32HD Undead
Caster level is 4Oracle + 2(Mystic Theurge) + 2(Spell Spec) + 1(Varisian Tattoo) + 2(Magical Knack) = 11*6 = 66HD Undead
=98HD Undead

10-14: Agent of the Grave1-5, increase your Oracle spellcasting progression, make sure you have 3 metamagic feats before you get Spell Perfection at 15.
My recommendations are Heighten Spell, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Quicken Spell, or Dazing Spell.

15-20: Mystic Theurge3-8 lvl15Feat: Spell Perfection (animate dead). Spell Spec and Varisian Tattoo CL bonuses are doubled with Spell Perfection. Lvl17 & 19 feats can be anything.

At lvl 15:
Caster level is 3Witch + 3(Mystic Theurge) + 4(Spell Spec) +2(Varisian Tattoo)= 12*4 = 48HD Undead
Caster level is 4Oracle + 3(Mystic Theurge) +5AotG (counts as +10) + 4(Spell Spec) +2(Varisian Tattoo)= 23*6 = 138HD Undead
=186HD total Undead

At lvl 20:
Caster level is 3Witch + 8(Mystic Theurge) + 4(Spell Spec) +2(Varisian Tattoo)= 17*4 = 68HD Undead
Caster level is 4Oracle + 8(Mystic Theurge) +5AotG (counts as +10) + 4(Spell Spec) +2(Varisian Tattoo)= 28*6 = 168HD Undead

=236HD total Undead

This is just for Animate Dead. Get CL boosting items like Orange Prism Ioun Stone and all those numbers will go up. This is merely a "peek under the hood" for how much HD Undead you can get stock with the classes and feats. You still have Bonethrall and Undead Servitude, as well as the Command Undead spell for juggling. If you get the Undead Master Feat and use Extend Spell, you can juggle quite a bit.

By level 20, you'll cast spells like a level 17 Oracle and a level 11 Witch, and you'll have a total of 236HD Animate Dead, ~20HD Bonethrall (whatever your total CL is + items), 4HD Undead Servitude (Oracle class level), and whatever you can juggle with Command Undead spell. And you'll have a Coven of Witches :D Throw the Leadership feat in there for additional follower shenanigans and you'll have quite the zoo following you around :P


Ryze Kuja wrote:
The way I understand how it works is that Animate Dead is a Divine Spell, but there's also an Arcane version of the same spell, so that creates two individual Animate Dead "buckets". Bonethrall is a class ability that emulates Command Undead Feat, and Undead Servitude actually gives you the Command Undead feat, but these are also two separate things so they would also stack. And then you have the Command Undead Spell, which is Arcane only.

I understand and agree with Bonethrall and Command Undead since they work in a similar fashion but aren't the same.

I disagree with Animate Dead creating separate 'buckets'. This is just literally 2 separate castings from the same caster using the same spell from 2 different class lists. This is the same as the exact same caster using "False Life" from the cleric and wizard list, or Bull Strength from the cleric and wizard list, the abilities don't stack. There is a little bit of persuasiveness in that the Witch side (CL 11) of casting will create considerably less undead than if the Oracle side (CL 22) was doing the casting. But essentially the source of this pseudo ability is a spell accessible by both classes, and the general stacking rules indicate that they shouldn't stack with itself unless they say they do?

Is there any kind of FAQ that would indicate otherwise?

Liberty's Edge

doomman47 wrote:
Drakes4me wrote:

awesome thank you. sorry it took so long to look at this again.

does anyone have suggestions on which patron i should use? having a tough time deciding with the spells missing due to being a gravewalker

Uhhh you gave the quote credit to the wrong person.

i'm sorry. super new to forums like i said. accidentally messed with the quote text and screwed it up


Meirril wrote:
I disagree with Animate Dead creating separate 'buckets'. This is just literally 2 separate castings from the same caster using the same spell from 2 different class lists. This is the same as the exact same caster using "False Life" from the cleric and wizard list, or Bull Strength from the cleric and wizard list, the abilities don't stack. There is a little bit of persuasiveness in that the Witch side (CL 11) of casting will create considerably less undead than if the Oracle side (CL 22) was doing the casting. But essentially the source of this pseudo ability is a spell accessible by both classes, and the general stacking rules indicate that they shouldn't stack with itself unless they say they do?

I agree, if they count as different sources then you could get quite a few "buckets" by just using scrolls made by different caster classes. The fact that they get the spell at different levels doesn't make it a different spell. A cleric with the fire domain can cast fireball as a divine spell but that doesn't make it functionally any different than a wizard casting it.

On a side note, it's possible to get a very large number of controlled undead using the leadership feat and Craft Wondrous Item. Then you can just start passing out Death's Head Talismans to each of your followers. Specifically this can net you up to 24 HD worth of undead per follower.


Meirril wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:
The way I understand how it works is that Animate Dead is a Divine Spell, but there's also an Arcane version of the same spell, so that creates two individual Animate Dead "buckets". Bonethrall is a class ability that emulates Command Undead Feat, and Undead Servitude actually gives you the Command Undead feat, but these are also two separate things so they would also stack. And then you have the Command Undead Spell, which is Arcane only.

I understand and agree with Bonethrall and Command Undead since they work in a similar fashion but aren't the same.

I disagree with Animate Dead creating separate 'buckets'. This is just literally 2 separate castings from the same caster using the same spell from 2 different class lists. This is the same as the exact same caster using "False Life" from the cleric and wizard list, or Bull Strength from the cleric and wizard list, the abilities don't stack. There is a little bit of persuasiveness in that the Witch side (CL 11) of casting will create considerably less undead than if the Oracle side (CL 22) was doing the casting. But essentially the source of this pseudo ability is a spell accessible by both classes, and the general stacking rules indicate that they shouldn't stack with itself unless they say they do?

Is there any kind of FAQ that would indicate otherwise?

Maybe I explained it wrong using the example of Arcane/Divine spells. It's coming from two different Caster Levels from two different classes. Anywho, I have looked for something that can clarify this, but all I've found is other people on the forums who make builds like this and the community doesn't reject it. /shrug

I'd like to see some rules for this as well.


LordKailas wrote:


On a side note, it's possible to get a very large number of controlled undead using the leadership feat and Craft Wondrous Item. Then you can just start passing out Death's Head Talismans to each of your followers. Specifically this can net you up to 24 HD worth of undead per follower.

Casting 24 HD of Animate Dead would cost you 1200gp. The Talisman costs 1500gp to create. This seems really cheap, but pleasantly so.

Alternatively you could dominate a vampire (since Agent of the Grave lets you target undead), and then turn yourself into a vampire (again, Agent of the Grave lets you overcome the negatives). Not only do you have the Vampire template now, you can also create spawn that are forced to be loyal to you.

You could also make simulacrum of yourself. Completely loyal and able to raise and control a significant amount of undead themselves. They could also form a coven with you.


Meirril wrote:
LordKailas wrote:


On a side note, it's possible to get a very large number of controlled undead using the leadership feat and Craft Wondrous Item. Then you can just start passing out Death's Head Talismans to each of your followers. Specifically this can net you up to 24 HD worth of undead per follower.

Casting 24 HD of Animate Dead would cost you 1200gp. The Talisman costs 1500gp to create. This seems really cheap, but pleasantly so.

Alternatively you could dominate a vampire (since Agent of the Grave lets you target undead), and then turn yourself into a vampire (again, Agent of the Grave lets you overcome the negatives). Not only do you have the Vampire template now, you can also create spawn that are forced to be loyal to you.

You could also make simulacrum of yourself. Completely loyal and able to raise and control a significant amount of undead themselves. They could also form a coven with you.

Ha! That's awesome :D Btw, Blood Money spell is an almost necessity to have as a Necromancer to offset the massive gp drain of raising undead.


Ryze Kuja wrote:
Meirril wrote:
LordKailas wrote:


On a side note, it's possible to get a very large number of controlled undead using the leadership feat and Craft Wondrous Item. Then you can just start passing out Death's Head Talismans to each of your followers. Specifically this can net you up to 24 HD worth of undead per follower.

Casting 24 HD of Animate Dead would cost you 1200gp. The Talisman costs 1500gp to create. This seems really cheap, but pleasantly so.

Alternatively you could dominate a vampire (since Agent of the Grave lets you target undead), and then turn yourself into a vampire (again, Agent of the Grave lets you overcome the negatives). Not only do you have the Vampire template now, you can also create spawn that are forced to be loyal to you.

You could also make simulacrum of yourself. Completely loyal and able to raise and control a significant amount of undead themselves. They could also form a coven with you.

Ha! That's awesome :D Btw, Blood Money spell is an almost necessity to have as a Necromancer to offset the massive gp drain of raising undead.

Or the Experimental Spellcaster feat to grab undeath.


Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:
Meirril wrote:
LordKailas wrote:


On a side note, it's possible to get a very large number of controlled undead using the leadership feat and Craft Wondrous Item. Then you can just start passing out Death's Head Talismans to each of your followers. Specifically this can net you up to 24 HD worth of undead per follower.

Casting 24 HD of Animate Dead would cost you 1200gp. The Talisman costs 1500gp to create. This seems really cheap, but pleasantly so.

Alternatively you could dominate a vampire (since Agent of the Grave lets you target undead), and then turn yourself into a vampire (again, Agent of the Grave lets you overcome the negatives). Not only do you have the Vampire template now, you can also create spawn that are forced to be loyal to you.

You could also make simulacrum of yourself. Completely loyal and able to raise and control a significant amount of undead themselves. They could also form a coven with you.

Ha! That's awesome :D Btw, Blood Money spell is an almost necessity to have as a Necromancer to offset the massive gp drain of raising undead.
Or the Experimental Spellcaster feat to grab undeath.

That's amazing.... how did I not know about this?!


Ugh. I don't think I'd want to fool around with Words of Power. I'd be a bit more inclined to accept the Soul Market and using Soul Stones to defray the cost of raising dead. You're a necromancer already, might as well embrace all the evil that comes with it.

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