Do we have enough dragons yet?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

What do you think? Do we have enough dragons in the game?

Well?:
Dragon, Black (Adult)
Dragon, Black (Ancient)
Dragon, Black (Great Wyrm)
Dragon, Black (Juvenile)
Dragon, Black (Mature Adult)
Dragon, Black (Old)
Dragon, Black (Very Old)
Dragon, Black (Very Young)
Dragon, Black (Wyrm)
Dragon, Black (Wyrmling)
Dragon, Black (Young Adult)
Dragon, Black (Young)
Dragon, Blue (Adult)
Dragon, Blue (Ancient)
Dragon, Blue (Great Wyrm)
Dragon, Blue (Juvenile)
Dragon, Blue (Mature Adult)
Dragon, Blue (Old)
Dragon, Blue (Very Old)
Dragon, Blue (Very Young)
Dragon, Blue (Wyrm)
Dragon, Blue (Wyrmling)
Dragon, Blue (Young Adult)
Dragon, Blue (Young)
Dragon, Brass (Adult)
Dragon, Brass (Ancient)
Dragon, Brass (Great Wyrm)
Dragon, Brass (Juvenile)
Dragon, Brass (Mature Adult)
Dragon, Brass (Old)
Dragon, Brass (Very Old)
Dragon, Brass (Very Young)
Dragon, Brass (Wyrm)
Dragon, Brass (Wyrmling)
Dragon, Brass (Young Adult)
Dragon, Brass (Young)
Dragon, Brine (Adult)
Dragon, Brine (Ancient)
Dragon, Brine (Great Wyrm)
Dragon, Brine (Juvenile)
Dragon, Brine (Mature Adult)
Dragon, Brine (Old)
Dragon, Brine (Very Old)
Dragon, Brine (Very Young)
Dragon, Brine (Wyrm)
Dragon, Brine (Wyrmling)
Dragon, Brine (Young Adult)
Dragon, Brine (Young)
Dragon, Bronze (Adult)
Dragon, Bronze (Ancient)
Dragon, Bronze (Great Wyrm)
Dragon, Bronze (Juvenile)
Dragon, Bronze (Mature Adult)
Dragon, Bronze (Old)
Dragon, Bronze (Very Old)
Dragon, Bronze (Very Young)
Dragon, Bronze (Wyrm)
Dragon, Bronze (Wyrmling)
Dragon, Bronze (Young Adult)
Dragon, Bronze (Young)
Dragon, Cloud (Adult)
Dragon, Cloud (Ancient)
Dragon, Cloud (Great Wyrm)
Dragon, Cloud (Juvenile)
Dragon, Cloud (Mature Adult)
Dragon, Cloud (Old)
Dragon, Cloud (Very Old)
Dragon, Cloud (Very Young)
Dragon, Cloud (Wyrm)
Dragon, Cloud (Wyrmling)
Dragon, Cloud (Young Adult)
Dragon, Cloud (Young)
Dragon, Copper (Adult)
Dragon, Copper (Ancient)
Dragon, Copper (Great Wyrm)
Dragon, Copper (Juvenile)
Dragon, Copper (Mature Adult)
Dragon, Copper (Old)
Dragon, Copper (Very Old)
Dragon, Copper (Very Young)
Dragon, Copper (Wyrm)
Dragon, Copper (Wyrmling)
Dragon, Copper (Young Adult)
Dragon, Copper (Young)
Dragon, Crystal (Adult)
Dragon, Crystal (Ancient)
Dragon, Crystal (Great Wyrm)
Dragon, Crystal (Juvenile)
Dragon, Crystal (Mature Adult)
Dragon, Crystal (Old)
Dragon, Crystal (Very Old)
Dragon, Crystal (Very Young)
Dragon, Crystal (Wyrm)
Dragon, Crystal (Wyrmling)
Dragon, Crystal (Young Adult)
Dragon, Crystal (Young)
Dragon, Faerie
Dragon, Gold (Adult)
Dragon, Gold (Ancient)
Dragon, Gold (Great Wyrm)
Dragon, Gold (Juvenile)
Dragon, Gold (Mature Adult)
Dragon, Gold (Old)
Dragon, Gold (Very Old)
Dragon, Gold (Very Young)
Dragon, Gold (Wyrm)
Dragon, Gold (Wyrmling)
Dragon, Gold (Young Adult)
Dragon, Gold (Young)
Dragon, Green (Adult)
Dragon, Green (Ancient)
Dragon, Green (Great Wyrm)
Dragon, Green (Juvenile)
Dragon, Green (Mature Adult)
Dragon, Green (Old)
Dragon, Green (Very Old)
Dragon, Green (Very Young)
Dragon, Green (Wyrm)
Dragon, Green (Wyrmling)
Dragon, Green (Young Adult)
Dragon, Green (Young)
Dragon, Imperial Forest (Adult)
Dragon, Imperial Forest (Ancient)
Dragon, Imperial Forest (Great Wyrm)
Dragon, Imperial Forest (Juvenile)
Dragon, Imperial Forest (Mature Adult)
Dragon, Imperial Forest (Old)
Dragon, Imperial Forest (Very Old)
Dragon, Imperial Forest (Very Young)
Dragon, Imperial Forest (Wyrm)
Dragon, Imperial Forest (Wyrmling)
Dragon, Imperial Forest (Young Adult)
Dragon, Imperial Forest (Young)
Dragon, Imperial Sea (Adult)
Dragon, Imperial Sea (Ancient)
Dragon, Imperial Sea (Great Wyrm)
Dragon, Imperial Sea (Juvenile)
Dragon, Imperial Sea (Mature Adult)
Dragon, Imperial Sea (Old)
Dragon, Imperial Sea (Very Old)
Dragon, Imperial Sea (Very Young)
Dragon, Imperial Sea (Wyrm)
Dragon, Imperial Sea (Wyrmling)
Dragon, Imperial Sea (Young Adult)
Dragon, Imperial Sea (Young)
Dragon, Imperial Sky (Adult)
Dragon, Imperial Sky (Ancient)
Dragon, Imperial Sky (Great Wyrm)
Dragon, Imperial Sky (Juvenile)
Dragon, Imperial Sky (Mature Adult)
Dragon, Imperial Sky (Old)
Dragon, Imperial Sky (Very Old)
Dragon, Imperial Sky (Very Young)
Dragon, Imperial Sky (Wyrm)
Dragon, Imperial Sky (Wyrmling)
Dragon, Imperial Sky (Young Adult)
Dragon, Imperial Sky (Young)
Dragon, Imperial Sovereign (Adult)
Dragon, Imperial Sovereign (Ancient)
Dragon, Imperial Sovereign (Great Wyrm)
Dragon, Imperial Sovereign (Juvenile)
Dragon, Imperial Sovereign (Mature Adult)
Dragon, Imperial Sovereign (Old)
Dragon, Imperial Sovereign (Very Old)
Dragon, Imperial Sovereign (Very Young)
Dragon, Imperial Sovereign (Wyrm)
Dragon, Imperial Sovereign (Wyrmling)
Dragon, Imperial Sovereign (Young Adult)
Dragon, Imperial Sovereign (Young)
Dragon, Imperial Underground (Adult)
Dragon, Imperial Underground (Ancient)
Dragon, Imperial Underground (Great Wyrm)
Dragon, Imperial Underground (Juvenile)
Dragon, Imperial Underground (Mature Adult)
Dragon, Imperial Underground (Old)
Dragon, Imperial Underground (Very Old)
Dragon, Imperial Underground (Very Young)
Dragon, Imperial Underground (Wyrm)
Dragon, Imperial Underground (Wyrmling)
Dragon, Imperial Underground (Young Adult)
Dragon, Imperial Underground (Young)
Dragon, Magma (Adult)
Dragon, Magma (Ancient)
Dragon, Magma (Great Wyrm)
Dragon, Magma (Juvenile)
Dragon, Magma (Mature Adult)
Dragon, Magma (Old)
Dragon, Magma (Very Old)
Dragon, Magma (Very Young)
Dragon, Magma (Wyrm)
Dragon, Magma (Wyrmling)
Dragon, Magma (Young Adult)
Dragon, Magma (Young)
Dragon, Outer Lunar (Adult)
Dragon, Outer Lunar (Ancient)
Dragon, Outer Lunar (Great Wyrm)
Dragon, Outer Lunar (Juvenile)
Dragon, Outer Lunar (Mature Adult)
Dragon, Outer Lunar (Old)
Dragon, Outer Lunar (Very Old)
Dragon, Outer Lunar (Very Young)
Dragon, Outer Lunar (Wyrm)
Dragon, Outer Lunar (Wyrmling)
Dragon, Outer Lunar (Young Adult)
Dragon, Outer Lunar (Young)
Dragon, Outer Solar (Adult)
Dragon, Outer Solar (Ancient)
Dragon, Outer Solar (Great Wyrm)
Dragon, Outer Solar (Juvenile)
Dragon, Outer Solar (Mature Adult)
Dragon, Outer Solar (Old)
Dragon, Outer Solar (Very Old)
Dragon, Outer Solar (Very Young)
Dragon, Outer Solar (Wyrm)
Dragon, Outer Solar (Wyrmling)
Dragon, Outer Solar (Young Adult)
Dragon, Outer Solar (Young)
Dragon, Outer Time (Adult)
Dragon, Outer Time (Ancient)
Dragon, Outer Time (Great Wyrm)
Dragon, Outer Time (Juvenile)
Dragon, Outer Time (Mature Adult)
Dragon, Outer Time (Old)
Dragon, Outer Time (Very Old)
Dragon, Outer Time (Very Young)
Dragon, Outer Time (Wyrm)
Dragon, Outer Time (Wyrmling)
Dragon, Outer Time (Young Adult)
Dragon, Outer Time (Young)
Dragon, Outer Void (Adult)
Dragon, Outer Void (Ancient)
Dragon, Outer Void (Great Wyrm)
Dragon, Outer Void (Juvenile)
Dragon, Outer Void (Mature Adult)
Dragon, Outer Void (Old)
Dragon, Outer Void (Very Old)
Dragon, Outer Void (Very Young)
Dragon, Outer Void (Wyrm)
Dragon, Outer Void (Wyrmling)
Dragon, Outer Void (Young Adult)
Dragon, Outer Void (Young)
Dragon, Outer Vortex (Adult)
Dragon, Outer Vortex (Ancient)
Dragon, Outer Vortex (Great Wyrm)
Dragon, Outer Vortex (Juvenile)
Dragon, Outer Vortex (Mature Adult)
Dragon, Outer Vortex (Old)
Dragon, Outer Vortex (Very Old)
Dragon, Outer Vortex (Very Young)
Dragon, Outer Vortex (Wyrm)
Dragon, Outer Vortex (Wyrmling)
Dragon, Outer Vortex (Young Adult)
Dragon, Outer Vortex (Young)
Dragon, Red (Adult)
Dragon, Red (Ancient)
Dragon, Red (Great Wyrm)
Dragon, Red (Juvenile)
Dragon, Red (Mature Adult)
Dragon, Red (Old)
Dragon, Red (Very Old)
Dragon, Red (Very Young)
Dragon, Red (Wyrm)
Dragon, Red (Wyrmling)
Dragon, Red (Young Adult)
Dragon, Red (Young)
Dragon, Silver (Adult)
Dragon, Silver (Ancient)
Dragon, Silver (Great Wyrm)
Dragon, Silver (Juvenile)
Dragon, Silver (Mature Adult)
Dragon, Silver (Old)
Dragon, Silver (Very Old)
Dragon, Silver (Very Young)
Dragon, Silver (Wyrm)
Dragon, Silver (Wyrmling)
Dragon, Silver (Young Adult)
Dragon, Silver (Young)
Dragon, Umbral (Adult)
Dragon, Umbral (Ancient)
Dragon, Umbral (Great Wyrm)
Dragon, Umbral (Juvenile)
Dragon, Umbral (Mature Adult)
Dragon, Umbral (Old)
Dragon, Umbral (Very Old)
Dragon, Umbral (Very Young)
Dragon, Umbral (Wyrm)
Dragon, Umbral (Wyrmling)
Dragon, Umbral (Young Adult)
Dragon, Umbral (Young)
Dragon, White (Adult)
Dragon, White (Ancient)
Dragon, White (Great Wyrm)
Dragon, White (Juvenile)
Dragon, White (Mature Adult)
Dragon, White (Old)
Dragon, White (Very Old)
Dragon, White (Very Young)
Dragon, White (Wyrm)
Dragon, White (Wyrmling)
Dragon, White (Young Adult)
Dragon, White (Young)
Esoteric Dragon, Astral (Adult)
Esoteric Dragon, Astral (Ancient)
Esoteric Dragon, Astral (Great Wyrm)
Esoteric Dragon, Astral (Juvenile)
Esoteric Dragon, Astral (Mature Adult)
Esoteric Dragon, Astral (Old)
Esoteric Dragon, Astral (Very Old)
Esoteric Dragon, Astral (Very Young)
Esoteric Dragon, Astral (Wyrm)
Esoteric Dragon, Astral (Wyrmling)
Esoteric Dragon, Astral (Young Adult)
Esoteric Dragon, Astral (Young)
Esoteric Dragon, Dream (Adult)
Esoteric Dragon, Dream (Ancient)
Esoteric Dragon, Dream (Great Wyrm)
Esoteric Dragon, Dream (Juvenile)
Esoteric Dragon, Dream (Mature Adult)
Esoteric Dragon, Dream (Old)
Esoteric Dragon, Dream (Very Old)
Esoteric Dragon, Dream (Very Young)
Esoteric Dragon, Dream (Wyrm)
Esoteric Dragon, Dream (Wyrmling)
Esoteric Dragon, Dream (Young Adult)
Esoteric Dragon, Dream (Young)
Esoteric Dragon, Etheric (Adult)
Esoteric Dragon, Etheric (Ancient)
Esoteric Dragon, Etheric (Great Wyrm)
Esoteric Dragon, Etheric (Juvenile)
Esoteric Dragon, Etheric (Mature Adult)
Esoteric Dragon, Etheric (Old)
Esoteric Dragon, Etheric (Very Old)
Esoteric Dragon, Etheric (Very Young)
Esoteric Dragon, Etheric (Wyrm)
Esoteric Dragon, Etheric (Wyrmling)
Esoteric Dragon, Etheric (Young Adult)
Esoteric Dragon, Etheric (Young)
Esoteric Dragon, Nightmare (Adult)
Esoteric Dragon, Nightmare (Ancient)
Esoteric Dragon, Nightmare (Great Wyrm)
Esoteric Dragon, Nightmare (Juvenile)
Esoteric Dragon, Nightmare (Mature Adult)
Esoteric Dragon, Nightmare (Old)
Esoteric Dragon, Nightmare (Very Old)
Esoteric Dragon, Nightmare (Very Young)
Esoteric Dragon, Nightmare (Wyrm)
Esoteric Dragon, Nightmare (Wyrmling)
Esoteric Dragon, Nightmare (Young Adult)
Esoteric Dragon, Nightmare (Young)
Esoteric Dragon, Occult (Adult)
Esoteric Dragon, Occult (Ancient)
Esoteric Dragon, Occult (Great Wyrm)
Esoteric Dragon, Occult (Juvenile)
Esoteric Dragon, Occult (Mature Adult)
Esoteric Dragon, Occult (Old)
Esoteric Dragon, Occult (Very Old)
Esoteric Dragon, Occult (Very Young)
Esoteric Dragon, Occult (Wyrm)
Esoteric Dragon, Occult (Wyrmling)
Esoteric Dragon, Occult (Young Adult)
Esoteric Dragon, Occult (Young)

Nah!

(Seriously though, how do they not rule absolutely everything? The only thing that even comes close are outsiders.)


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Ravingdork wrote:


(Seriously though, how do they not rule absolutely everything? The only thing that even comes close are outsiders.)

By all accounts the universe should be ruled by a recursive stack of Great Time Wyrms who consist of the same Great Time Wyrm from various points in the time stream meeting with himself by throwing himself (and other versions of himself) forward and backward in time as needed. Threat to yourself/stuff you like? Send yourself back in time and murder the perps while they're babies/on the privy. Concerned about your uses per lifetime? Eh, there's always a past version of yourself with full uses waiting to be told.

Great Time Wyrm Time Force is the ultimate force barring any deity that was deific since the beginning of time which honestly is probably just another polymorphed GTW.


Never enough dragons.


Hence the importance of a thriving, well-equipped dragonslayer population to the universe's ecology.


I don't see topaz dragons, steel dragons or purple dragons on your list so there's some work to be done converting before the dragon population is complete. Unless you decide that F-W's dragonslayer population is actually a clear and present threat to ecology rather than a boon.


I don't have all the bestiaries and supplements for PF, so I can't tell if there really are enough dragon types in the game... but in 3.5, with the draconomicon and all monster manuals till IV, I had enough dragons to satisfy me.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
avr wrote:
I don't see topaz dragons, steel dragons or purple dragons on your list so there's some work to be done converting before the dragon population is complete. Unless you decide that F-W's dragonslayer population is actually a clear and present threat to ecology rather than a boon.

I grabbed everything that was on the PRD that I could find.

If you know of any others from other official sources, please feel free to add to the list! :D


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One thinks that including each age category of dragon artificially inflates the list. :)


This list seems woefully small. It only has the things with dragon in their name- it doesn't include the wide world of various dragon type creatures which includes linnorm, wyverns, and pseudo dragons.

We need dragon mounts, dragon pets, dragon accountants, dragon cigarette lighters, and "I played pathfinder, and all I fought was this dragon t-shirt" shirts.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I was focusing on what many people commonly refer to as "true" dragons.


169 ouf of 2667 monster stat blocks says my spreadsheet.

List:
Young Black Dragon
Adult Black Dragon
Ancient Black Dragon
Ancient Blue Dragon
Young Blue Dragon
Adult Blue Dragon
Young Green Dragon
Adult Green Dragon
Ancient Green Dragon
Young Red Dragon
Adult Red Dragon
Ancient Red Dragon
Young White Dragon
Adult White Dragon
Ancient White Dragon
Young Brass Dragon
Adult Brass Dragon
Ancient Brass Dragon
Young Bronze Dragon
Adult Bronze Dragon
Ancient Bronze Dragon
Young Copper Dragon
Adult Copper Dragon
Ancient Copper Dragon
Young Gold Dragon
Adult Gold Dragon
Ancient Gold Dragon
Young Silver Dragon
Adult Silver Dragon
Ancient Silver Dragon
Dragon Turtle
Dracolisk
Crag Linnorm
Ice Linnorm
Tarn Linnorm
Pseudodragon
Wyvern
Young Brine Dragon
Adult Brine Dragon
Ancient Brine Dragon
Young Cloud Dragon
Adult Cloud Dragon
Ancient Cloud Dragon
Young Crystal Dragon
Adult Crystal Dragon
Ancient Crystal Dragon
Young Magma Dragon
Adult Magma Dragon
Ancient Magma Dragon
Young Umbral Dragon
Ancient Umbral Dragon
Flame Drake
Forest Drake
Frost Drake
Sea Drake
Jabberwock
Spine Dragon
Gare Linnorm
Fafnheir
Faerie Dragon
Young Forest Dragon
Adult Forest Dragon
Ancient Forest Dragon
Young Sea Dragon
Adult Sea Dragon
Ancient Sea Dragon
Young Sky Dragon
Adult Sky Dragon
Ancient Sky Dragon
Young Sovereign Dragon
Adult Sovereign Dragon
Ancient Sovereign Dragon
Young Underworld Dragon
Adult Underworld Dragon
Ancient Underworld Dragon
Desert Drake
Rift Drake
River Drake
Gorynych
Kongamato
Cairn Linnorm
Fjord Linnorm
Taiga Linnorm
Tor Linnorm
Tatzlwyrm
Tidepool Dragon
Aashaq's Wyvern
Adult Umbral Dragon
Korir-kokembe
Woundwyrm
Mythic Mature Adult Black Dragon
Mythic Mature Adult Blue Dragon
Mythic Very Old Green Dragon
Mythic Young Red Dragon
Mythic Wyrm Red Dragon
Mythic Juvenile White Dragon
Mythic Wyvern
Young Lunar Dragon
Adult Lunar Dragon
Ancient Lunar Dragon
Young Solar Dragon
Adult Solar Dragon
Ancient Solar Dragon
Young Time Dragon
Adult Time Dragon
Ancient Time Dragon
Young Void Dragon
Adult Void Dragon
Ancient Void Dragon
Young Vortex Dragon
Adult Vortex Dragon
Ancient Vortex Dragon
Lava Drake
Mist Drake
Shadow Drake
Spire Drake
Guardian Dragon
Nycar
Peluda
Taniniver
Wyvaran
Kyrana
Prism Dragon
Amphiptere
Cetus
Young Astral Dragon
Adult Astral Dragon
Ancient Astral Dragon
Young Dream Dragon
Adult Dream Dragon
Ancient Dream Dragon
Young Etheric Dragon
Adult Etheric Dragon
Ancient Etheric Dragon
Young Nightmare Dragon
Adult Nightmare Dragon
Ancient Nightmare Dragon
Young Occult Dragon
Adult Occult Dragon
Ancient Occult Dragon
Dragonkin
Ether Drake
Jungle Drake
Khala
Pyrausta
Rope Dragon
Scitalis
Shen
Vishap
Calligraphy Wyrm
Pseudowyvern
House Drake
Young Crypt Dragon
Adult Crypt Dragon
Ancient Crypt Dragon
Young Havoc Dragon
Adult Havoc Dragon
Ancient Havoc Dragon
Young Infernal Dragon
Adult Infernal Dragon
Ancient Infernal Dragon
Young Paradise Dragon
Adult Paradise Dragon
Ancient Paradise Dragon
Young Rift Dragon
Adult Rift Dragon
Ancient Rift Dragon
Elder Wyrm
Gowrow

lemeres wrote:
dragon cigarette lighters

"A typical pyrausta’s body is 9 inches long, though its wingspan is longer, and it weighs 1 to 2 pounds." That's a big cigarette lighter!

Ravingdork wrote:
(Seriously though, how do they not rule absolutely everything? The only thing that even comes close are outsiders.)

Lair boundness and lazyness. For instance, the CR24 dragons with entries: "Fafnheir spends much of his time slumbering (...) The linnorm rarely ventures far from his lair, preferring to lure his enemies close and dispatch them on familiar ground."

"The few elder wyrms that live on a given planet spend much of their time dozing in secluded places, waking occasionally to hunt or seek out injustices to punish based on their individual interests and moods."
Shen are "[t]ypically benevolent" and "prefer quiet contemplation amid
oceans or other large bodies of water".
Guardian Dragons, well, guard.

Hm, maybe Elder Wyrms hunt misbehaving powerful dragons?


I'd imagine that most higher tier dragons think that the banality of rulership is beneath them. Ruling the world always had the major disadvantage of dealing with all the problems of the world. There is always going to be a famine, plague, flood, drought, or other problem somewhere, which would require your constant attention. Most dragons would not bother with that invading goblin horde unless the buggers stepped on his lawn.

Most dragons prefer just to rule the things they need to maintain their preferred standard of living. A few kobold servants to deal with the menial tasks, a few half dragon children to help you search for the next piece of your beanie baby collection. Besides that, they can just use their massive power to go out and grab whatever they need when something particular comes up.


Short answer, no. Long answer heck no. As for why they don't rule, they do. Every high level NPC is just a dragon in polymorph. How else do you explain that they're usually greedy, powerful enough to deal with whatever they send the party to do but selfish or narcissistic enough to not want to put themselves at risk.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Lead Developer

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:
Short answer, no. Long answer heck no. As for why they don't rule, they do. Every high level NPC is just a dragon in polymorph. How else do you explain that they're usually greedy, powerful enough to deal with whatever they send the party to do but selfish or narcissistic enough to not want to put themselves at risk.

Is the answer "because they're actually human?"


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Humans are an evolutionary offshoot of dragons. They're still pretty close though, because they can both interbreed with many of the same ring species.


Can we get a list that separates the true dragons from the lesser dragons and doesn't inflate the size with various age categories?


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The Sideromancer wrote:
Humans are an evolutionary offshoot of dragons. They're still pretty close though, because they can both interbreed with many of the same ring species.

"The common ape dragon. It forms relatively large social groups that center around the raising of milk dragons and the growing of wheat dragons. Communities that are located near the sea also catch piscine dragons as a primary source of protein.

Due to its lack of scales and claws, it often seeks metal deposits under the ground in order to fashion defensive and offensive additions to its body. While typically harmless, and delicious, more aggressive communities have a tendency to swarm when you start to attack members of the group. A rare few demonstrate particularly high physical traits that can make them a threat to younger individuals. Special attention must be taken of ape dragon infestations due to their tendency to steal shiny objects from homes."- The dragon guide to wild lesser dragons.


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Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
Can we get a list that separates the true dragons from the lesser dragons and doesn't inflate the size with various age categories?

Where do you draw the line? What does count as a "true" dragon?

If we remove all wyverns, drakes, and CR<10 dragons:

Spoiler:
Dragons with age categories:
Black Dragon
Blue Dragon
Green Dragon
Red Dragon
White Dragon
Brass Dragon
Bronze Dragon
Copper Dragon
Gold Dragon
Silver Dragon
Brine Dragon
Cloud Dragon
Crystal Dragon
Magma Dragon
Umbral Dragon
Forest Dragon
Sea Dragon
Sky Dragon
Sovereign Dragon
Underworld Dragon
Lunar Dragon
Solar Dragon
Time Dragon
Void Dragon
Vortex Dragon
Astral Dragon
Dream Dragon
Etheric Dragon
Nightmare Dragon
Occult Dragon
Crypt Dragon
Havoc Dragon
Infernal Dragon
Paradise Dragon
Rift Dragon

Linnorms (primeval dragons):
Crag Linnorm
Ice Linnorm
Tarn Linnorm
Gare Linnorm
Cairn Linnorm
Fjord Linnorm
Taiga Linnorm
Tor Linnorm
Fafnheir

others:
Guardian Dragon (CR24)
Elder Wyrm (CR24)
Woundwyrm (CR15)
Vishap (CR19)

dragons stated not to be "true dragons" in their description:
Shen (CR24)
Gorynych (CR15)
Spine Dragon (CR16)
Prism Dragon (CR17)
Scitalis (CR12)

corner cases:
Jabberwock (CR23)
Kongamato (CR15), "primeval dragons"
Korir-kokembe (CR10), "degenerate dragons"
Peluda (CR10)
Taniniver (CR18), "diseased dragon"
Cetus (CR13), more shark than dragon
Khala (CR17), "warped through (...) magic from proud creatures into voracious and wicked things"


Derklord wrote:
Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
Can we get a list that separates the true dragons from the lesser dragons and doesn't inflate the size with various age categories?

Where do you draw the line? What does count as a "true" dragon?

If we remove all wyverns, drakes, and CR<10 dragons:

** spoiler omitted **

True dragons are any with age categories. Specifically 12 age categories starting at wyrmling and ending at great wyrm.


I've read numerous worlds that were ruled by dragons. Typically, they were unpleasant places where humanoids were all enslaved to dragon overlords.

I think what keeps dragons for ruling everything is their low numbers and low interest. Whereas humans can live in vast metropolises of millions of people, I've never heard of the same with dragons. Usually you only see a single dragon claiming a large area of territory or at most a clutch of a handful of dragons. Dragons also seem content to claim rule to an area and then sleep for hundreds of years allowing for other races to spread their influence during those times.

Also dragons of different colors don't seem to get along with each other very well. If they could put aside their differences to live and work together and breed in huge numbers, I agree that very little could stop them. A New York City-like population of 8.5 million dragons would truly be a frightening sight. People would likely be like the subway rats in that situation.


I've also seen a world that *was* ruled by dragons, until they started going senile after about 10 000 years. Turns out you really don't want a bunch of great wyrms that can't remember why they shouldn't be lashing out at basically everything.


There can never be too many dragons. However I think that we have been graced with an acceptable level of dragons in Pathfinder.


Dragons don't rule everything because they are too tired. They are cold-blooded reptiles who need external heat to provide energy. But they were culturally convinced to sleep on beds of gold in dark, cool caves, which means they tend to lose a lot of heat due to the natural heat-conducting properties of gold. In addition, they tend to prefer large meals so they can conserve energy and not be too tired, but once they get to about huge sized, there are fewer and fewer large meals they can hunt without being at significant risk considering how many of their potential dinners are their peers. So they have to settle for large amounts of smaller game like elephants to survive.

Combine these factors, and they wind up being to tired in their old age to manage more than a few small cults of kobolds and for truly vigorous individuals, maybe a country or two.


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Outside of prepublished scenarios, I no longer have "kinds" of true dragon--each dragon is unique in coloration, build, and abilities. It makes them more interesting and less obviously effable.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

I'm of the opinion (on record for a long time now) that we really don't need any more dragons (or giants) because we barely seem to get mileage out of the ones we've got...

And I think that only the edition change has even a slight chance of slowing down the addition of more, because my opinion is a clear minority among people who buy the books Paizo puts out.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

There's never enough dragons, or monsters for that matter. I like to homebrew convert Monster Hunter monsters into Pathfinder monsters. Stuff like Rathalos and Rathians are just fire breathing wyverns. The Elder Dragons make for far more interesting encounters.


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Cole Deschain wrote:

I'm of the opinion (on record for a long time now) that we really don't need any more dragons (or giants) because we barely seem to get mileage out of the ones we've got...

And I think that only the edition change has even a slight chance of slowing down the addition of more, because my opinion is a clear minority among people who buy the books Paizo puts out.

I am of the opinion that we need MORE dragons, but I agree we don't need more TRUE dragons.

TRUE dragons are often a power tier that makes them the end of a quest, or at least a high tier servant/guardian of a macguffin.

I prefer the monster hunter route- there are a ton of different overarching types of wyverns (bird wyverns [raptors], fanged wyverns [wolfish], brute wyverns [t-rexes], flying wyverns [wyverns], piscine wyverns [fish things with legs], etc), and they have such varying body types that you could make a half dozen distinct creatures in each type. Heck- the new monster hunter game has 4 different types of rathian/ rathalos (the female/males of the same species), and each has their own separate niche and attack patterns that make them distinct.

Creating a wide number of lower tier creatures allows you to create an ecosystem that has its own feel separate from reality.

EDIT- wow... surprising that I got ninja'd with my monster hunter reference...


lemeres wrote:

While typically harmless

Don't you mean "mostly harmless" (i'll see myself out)

Also, between fantasy and cyberpunk rpgs, there seems to be a pattern of dragons ruling the world on and off every few thousand years depending on their mood.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
lemeres wrote:
EDIT- wow... surprising that I got ninja'd with my monster hunter reference...

I was on the making monster hunter pathfinder monsters train for awhile now. You have to take the sizes they give you with a bit of a grain of salt. Teostra is obviously not that long.

But you can get some fun stuff out of them. Vaal Hazak is a giant rotting eel dragon that has can release a aura of poisonous mist that it can suck back into itself to heal a bit of it's life and kill creatures native to it's environment that can survive in the poison. Just change it to that it can heal damage based on the number of creatures afflicted by it's miasma. That'll have the cleric scrambling to cast remove poison or heal.


Painful Bugger wrote:
lemeres wrote:
EDIT- wow... surprising that I got ninja'd with my monster hunter reference...

I was on the making monster hunter pathfinder monsters train for awhile now. You have to take the sizes they give you with a bit of a grain of salt. Teostra is obviously not that long.

But you can get some fun stuff out of them. Vaal Hazak is a giant rotting eel dragon that has can release a aura of poisonous mist that it can suck back into itself to heal a bit of it's life and kill creatures native to it's environment that can survive in the poison. Just change it to that it can heal damage based on the number of creatures afflicted by it's miasma. That'll have the cleric scrambling to cast remove poison or heal.

And give it an extreme weakness to sneak attacks. God I love grabbing a fast weapon and just hacking away at that tender belly...


There aren't enough dragons eligible as mounts in PFS, that's for sure.

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