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Example 1: Lots of Large sized giants are described in bestiary text to be around 15 feet tall. Game mechanic wise they are 10x10 size square with 10 feet reach. While you can assume that 15 foot tall giant putting his arms up could be about 20 feet tall, rules for squeezing care only about creature's size category. This means that 15 feet tall giant in 10 feet tall hallway isn't squeezing by the rules.
Example 2: I'd post here Dragon size chart from dragonslayer's handbook, but I can't find it on google, so I'll settle for Vishap, a colossal dragon that is "70 feet from head to tail and weighs 60,000 pounds." from bestiary 5.
Colossal creatures take 30 x 30 feet square and have 30 feet reach, vishap specifically has 40 feet for its bite attack. Now while that isn't too unbelievable, same thing about it fitting into 30 x 30 feet cube without squeezing by rules applies to it as well. But ignoring that, Vishap is CR 19 creature, so level 20 fighter that is well equipped should be capable of slaying the dragon. Game mechanics wise this means that fighter will go next to dragon's legs(as it size means they have no way to reach their body from the ground) hits the leg four times for over 200 hp damage in six seconds and dragon dies from the leg wound.
Now back to the true dragons: Vishap doesn't have this problem, but great wyrm red dragon doesn't have swallow whole ability. So when this colossal beast bites 5 feet tall(or maybe 6 feet as that sized creature still fits one square) fighter, he survives and somehow doesn't get swallowed whole or die from it. Basically, why doesn't every creature with colossal size automatically have swallow whole to enough smaller creatures?
Side note 2: Same applies to grapple abilities. When Gargantuan Rune Giant(40 feet tall) grapples the fighter, rule wise fighter is still touching the ground, otherwise they would have to take falling damage whenever grapple is released. Rulewise rune giant also can't just lift the fighter and throw him into distance with combat maneuver as reposition combat maneuver forbids moving repositioned unit into dangerous locations or hurling them.
Okay, I'm now done with my explanation. I mostly did this because I'm little bit annoyed at folks who really don't want meters to get into the system while not wanting to let go of game mechanics referring to feets instead of abstract square units :D I wanted to make it clear that in 1e, flavor of creature's size doesn't matter game mechanics wise when it comes to common sense of what they can and can't do. So is there really a need for game mechanics to refer to feet instead of squares when 6 feet tall human is same size as a dwarf when it comes to game mechanical effects?
That said, not honestly if there is any "fix" for this besides making large enough creatures play by different rules, sort of like how Starfinder separates ship combat and normal combat. I always wondered how kaiju and other colossal creatures with massive special quality only make sense if they are fighting each other or regular colossal creatures at least. Because idea of mythic champion 10 fighter level 20 PC killing Golarion version of Godzilla by stabbing his toe is surreal.
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Example 1: Lots of Large sized giants are described in bestiary text to be around 15 feet tall. Game mechanic wise they are 10x10 size square with 10 feet reach. While you can assume that 15 foot tall giant putting his arms up could be about 20 feet tall, rules for squeezing care only about creature's size category. This means that 15 feet tall giant in 10 feet tall hallway isn't squeezing by the rules.
Example 2: I'd post here Dragon size chart from dragonslayer's handbook, but I can't find it on google, so I'll settle for Vishap, a colossal dragon that is "70 feet from head to tail and weighs 60,000 pounds." from bestiary 5.
Colossal creatures take 30 x 30 feet square and have 30 feet reach, vishap specifically has 40 feet for its bite attack. Now while that isn't too unbelievable, same thing about it fitting into 30 x 30 feet cube without squeezing by rules applies to it as well. But ignoring that, Vishap is CR 19 creature, so level 20 fighter that is well equipped should be capable of slaying the dragon. Game mechanics wise this means that fighter will go next to dragon's legs(as it size means they have no way to reach their body from the ground) hits the leg four times for over 200 hp damage in six seconds and dragon dies from the leg wound.
Now back to the true dragons: Vishap doesn't have this problem, but great wyrm red dragon doesn't have swallow whole ability. So when this colossal beast bites 5 feet tall(or maybe 6 feet as that sized creature still fits one square) fighter, he survives and somehow doesn't get swallowed whole or die from it. Basically, why doesn't every creature with colossal size automatically have swallow whole to enough smaller creatures?
Side note 2: Same applies to grapple abilities. When Gargantuan Rune Giant(40 feet tall) grapples the fighter, rule wise fighter is still touching the ground, otherwise they would have to take falling damage whenever grapple is released. Rulewise rune giant also can't just lift the fighter and throw him into distance with combat...
Note that while yes the fighter could only reach the leg if both were standing still, actual combat should involve movement, including things like the bigger beasties ducking down to attack, thus exposing different areas of their bodies to attack themselves.
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...Example 1: Lots of Large sized giants are described in bestiary text to be around 15 feet tall. Game mechanic wise they are 10x10 size square with 10 feet reach. While you can assume that 15 foot tall giant putting his arms up could be about 20 feet tall, rules for squeezing care only about creature's size category. This means that 15 feet tall giant in 10 feet tall hallway isn't squeezing by the rules.
Example 2: I'd post here Dragon size chart from dragonslayer's handbook, but I can't find it on google, so I'll settle for Vishap, a colossal dragon that is "70 feet from head to tail and weighs 60,000 pounds." from bestiary 5.
Colossal creatures take 30 x 30 feet square and have 30 feet reach, vishap specifically has 40 feet for its bite attack. Now while that isn't too unbelievable, same thing about it fitting into 30 x 30 feet cube without squeezing by rules applies to it as well. But ignoring that, Vishap is CR 19 creature, so level 20 fighter that is well equipped should be capable of slaying the dragon. Game mechanics wise this means that fighter will go next to dragon's legs(as it size means they have no way to reach their body from the ground) hits the leg four times for over 200 hp damage in six seconds and dragon dies from the leg wound.
Now back to the true dragons: Vishap doesn't have this problem, but great wyrm red dragon doesn't have swallow whole ability. So when this colossal beast bites 5 feet tall(or maybe 6 feet as that sized creature still fits one square) fighter, he survives and somehow doesn't get swallowed whole or die from it. Basically, why doesn't every creature with colossal size automatically have swallow whole to enough smaller creatures?
Side note 2: Same applies to grapple abilities. When Gargantuan Rune Giant(40 feet tall) grapples the fighter, rule wise fighter is still touching the ground, otherwise they would have to take falling damage whenever grapple is released. Rulewise rune giant also can't just lift the fighter and throw him
Well yeah, flavor wise characters don't get hit either, HP bar going to 0 reflects "Oh, now your luck run out and you got actual lethal wound"(though it get confusing with cure spells). I'm mostly expressing annoyance with idea that combat system simulates reality that lot of folk have when stuff like abstract units come up <_<
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Yeeeeep. That is why I'm in the "Wait, what do you mean you think ki energy beam shooting wuxia monks are too anime? D&D is already anime!" club(for those who don't believe, look at previous example at fighter being able to deal over 200 damage in 6 seconds with full attack and thats before you get fifth attack with haste and stuff) :P Though it then leads to questions like "So if you are unconscious, sword to the neck kills you, but if you are awake its twenty hits?". I guess rule of drama combined with anime logic are in full effect in D&D
That said, even with assuming people can survive few hits from giant club without dying, I still have no idea how someone can survive bite from dragon size of multiple houses without being swallowed whole into its stomach :D(bonus points if it critted)
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I definitely hope size modifiers are still a thing. And I've always believed creatures should automatically get Trample and Swallow Whole and similar benefits against creatures enough size categories smaller than them. Even a "mere" Large tiger or winter wolf should have Swallow Whole against that halfling using Reduce Person to go to Tiny for the extra AC and attack bonuses.
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Yeeeeep. That is why I'm in the "Wait, what do you mean you think ki energy beam shooting wuxia monks are too anime? D&D is already anime!"Not really, you can make it so, but D&D is not inherently a game of anime style.
It certainly seems like it is t, especially with games like BESM around. Seems being the operative word....
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I think they are trying to simplify things, not complicate things. In 200 Pathfinder sessions right now, I think I've seen the squeeze rules used once for monsters and once for PCs, it's not really common.
I'm more interested in monsters being able to do cool things, besides damage, because of their size (and training with that size). Things like sending the PCs flying onto their backs (trip), grapples, engulfing (grapple), stomping (prone and pinned?), pulls, pushes, etc. Makes the encounter more cinematic and dangerous without needing to do huge amounts of damage.
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Yeeeeep. That is why I'm in the "Wait, what do you mean you think ki energy beam shooting wuxia monks are too anime? D&D is already anime!"Not really, you can make it so, but D&D is not inherently a game of anime style.
D&D hasn't been a system that represents a Lord of the RIngs style world since at least 2nd edition and Pathfinder dropped with elves that are actually aliens, gnomes with pink hair, and people who were so good at martial arts that they can teleport, fall any distance, and talk to animals. Ever since 3.x D&D spellcasters have had ridiculous levels of power that you only really see in anime or extreme high fantasy novels; Gandalf never turned into a giant murder-beast that could hurl giant balls of destructive energy, but that's definitely something you see in shows like Naruto.
Regardless of what D&D started out as, the tropes and concepts it introduced were heavily adopted in Japan for games like Final Fantasy that went on to shape and influence modern anime, so anime and Pathfinder share a lot of the same DNA and always have.
Yeeeeep. That is why I'm in the "Wait, what do you mean you think ki energy beam shooting wuxia monks are too anime? D&D is already anime!"Not really, you can make it so, but D&D is not inherently a game of anime style.D&D hasn't been a system that represents a Lord of the RIngs style world since at least 2nd edition and Pathfinder dropped with elves that are actually aliens, gnomes with pink hair, and people who were so good at martial arts that they can teleport, fall any distance, and talk to animals. Ever since 3.x D&D spellcasters have had ridiculous levels of power that you only really see in anime or extreme high fantasy novels; Gandalf never turned into a giant murder-beast that could hurl giant balls of destructive energy, but that's definitely something you see in shows like Naruto.
Regardless of what D&D started out as, the tropes and concepts it introduced were heavily adopted in Japan for games like Final Fantasy that went on to shape and influence modern anime, so anime and Pathfinder share a lot of the same DNA and always have.
Thus I have dubbed the recently released "Planar Adventures" as "Animu Combat Handbook". If you only focus on the archetype/feats/spells sections, it really has some of the most over-the-top crazy stuff!
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I think they are trying to simplify things, not complicate things. In 200 Pathfinder sessions right now, I think I've seen the squeeze rules used once for monsters and once for PCs, it's not really common.
I'm more interested in monsters being able to do cool things, besides damage, because of their size (and training with that size). Things like sending the PCs flying onto their backs (trip), grapples, engulfing (grapple), stomping (prone and pinned?), pulls, pushes, etc. Makes the encounter more cinematic and dangerous without needing to do huge amounts of damage.
Umm, I'm not sure if you read whole post, but isn't that what I said in the end pretty much?
Like example I gave was that its silly giants can't do the cool thing of hurling people into horizons, but they sure can do that with rocks
Also I'm glad someone got what I meant with "D&D is already animu" comment :D
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No one mentioned Lord of the Rings, neither here nor there, so far we got BESM, LotR, lots of reaching going on; D&D is not a game designed around emulating Anime films/shows, but it can be pushed that way.D&D hasn't been a system that represents a Lord of the RIngs style world since at least 2nd editionYeeeeep. That is why I'm in the "Wait, what do you mean you think ki energy beam shooting wuxia monks are too anime? D&D is already anime!"Not really, you can make it so, but D&D is not inherently a game of anime style.
3.5 and Pathfinder don't really need any "pushing". They are, inherently, games that have more in common with anime than any other segment of fantasy except for the books and stories directly derived from the systems themselves. There are tons of anime that can be directly emulated with 3.x/Pathfinder rules like Slayers, Louie the Rune Soldier, Seven Deadly Sins, and so many more it would take more time to write them than is really worthwhile (but also Samurai Champloo, Shura No Toki, Naruto...). The monk class is pulled more from the shared roots of anime and modern TTRPG fantasy than from any actual historical comparison, 3.5's Book of Nine Swords was full wuxia, so on and so forth.
As someone who actively designs and develops for Pathfinder, it's heavily influenced by a wide variety of anime, and grew from shared cultural roots between the two mediums. There's really no need to push Pathfinder or 3.X to emulate anime, because it's already built to be able to emulate the many shared tropes. While there's some chicken/egg arguments to be made, the 3.X versions of D&D, including Pathfinder, absolutely and intentionally allow you to emulate anime fantasy tropes.
3.5 and Pathfinder don't really need any "pushing". They are, inherently, games that have more in common with anime than any other segment of fantasy except for the books and stories directly derived from the systems themselves. There are tons of anime that can be directly emulated with 3.x/Pathfinder rules like Slayers, Louie the Rune Soldier, Seven Deadly Sins, and so many moreNo one mentioned Lord of the Rings, neither here nor there, so far we got BESM, LotR, lots of reaching going on; D&D is not a game designed around emulating Anime films/shows, but it can be pushed that way.D&D hasn't been a system that represents a Lord of the RIngs style world since at least 2nd editionYeeeeep. That is why I'm in the "Wait, what do you mean you think ki energy beam shooting wuxia monks are too anime? D&D is already anime!"Not really, you can make it so, but D&D is not inherently a game of anime style.
Well, yeah. If you're going to list ones (particularly specifically Slayers, and also Lodoss War, which I guess goes in your many more) that are specifically playing on D&D and D&D tropes, are modelled after D&D, they are indeed going to feel like D&D/PF can emulate them. But that's honestly getting the chicken and egg question wrong.
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Nice try, BESM is not D&D, it is a d20 game.It certainly seems like it is t, especially with games like BESM around. Seems being the operative word....Yeeeeep. That is why I'm in the "Wait, what do you mean you think ki energy beam shooting wuxia monks are too anime? D&D is already anime!"Not really, you can make it so, but D&D is not inherently a game of anime style.
Except that wasn't my point at all. Fun fact though, D&D is a d20 game just like BESM...
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Well, yeah. If you're going to list ones (particularly specifically Slayers, and also Lodoss War, which I guess goes in your many more) that are specifically playing on D&D and D&D tropes, are modelled after D&D, they are indeed going to feel like D&D/PF can emulate them. But that's honestly getting the chicken and egg question wrong.
Fantasy anime and fantasy TTRPGs have been building on each other since at least 1987, so while there's a clear line back to when Final Fantasy (specifically, though they weren't the first Japanese game to do so) adopted the fantasy tropes, even back then D&D had already borrowed from anime (and the Japanese folklore and histories on which many anime are based). So there are shared roots going back decades and the genres have evolved and grown around each other. Anime franchises have adopted D&D conventions, and D&D has adopted anime inspirations for multiple editions. 3.X D&D was fully bought into the idea that fantasy anime fans were a likely audience, and it's high powered abilities and complex mechanics compared to earlier editions accommodated that growing market and eventually directly incorporated it. Pathfinder in turn took a half-step back from wuxia but a full step in on other anime tropes and inspirations, and slowly reintegrated the wuxia elements over time as ToB/Bo9S (as well as its connection to 4E) and the friction it caused in the fan-base faded. The ninja is based on a very anime representation of the trope, what with flurries of shuriken and ki-based invisibility. The kineticist bought into modern anime elements very heavily as well (whether Avatar is "real" anime is a different conversation entirely). The summoner is another class that draws heavily on anime tropes, and there's tons of individual mechanics and bits of lore that also have anime roots. Plus you've got multiple generations of anime fans who've been designing an working on the game(s), and each one has left more of that influence embedded in the DNA of the game.
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The Mouse Guard RPG has a rule that essentially limits the size of what you can fight and defeat in combat.
There's a "Natural Order" scale, that splits every animal up into separate size categories. As you play a mouse, you are pretty close to the bottom of that chart.
You can fight and kill things up to one step higher than you on the table (for mice, that includes snakes and weasels).
You can fight and injure or drive off (but not kill), anything two steps higher that you (owls, porcupines, etc)
Anything bigger than that (foxes, wolves, bears), you cannot fight in the traditional manner. To defeat them, you must instead marshal an army of mice and wage war against them.
I love that part of Mouse Guard, but I'm not sure I want that kind of "realism" in Pathfinder/D&D. The image of the lone knight battling the enormous dragon is too iconic to give up, even if we have to lean heavily on the abstraction of combat and hit points to make it happen.
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I do love me some Mouse Guard, and the comics from which it is derived. But I suppose that isn't too surprising with my icon. ;3
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Point was that high level D&D inherently becomes "anime", because there aren't that many ways to interpret "Killing in giant in single word strike" besides hero apparently being over powered enough to make cut down giant in that one sword strike :p Unless you want to argue "Every giant kill was stabbing to the brain through eye" or something which is just as over the top. And thats not even getting into high level magics.
Its not about emulating "anime" in order to be "anime" nor about being "hardwired". Anime's style of action is over the top stylish stuff that doesn't need to make logically sense since it is more about cool factor. High level D&D naturally enters that when you take in account that each combat round is 6 seconds and high level characters can do things like four attacks in 6 seconds without magic as a baseline before mythics or class features are added. Intention of game developers doesn't matter for sake of comparison, you can't say "It isn't similar" when it clearly is.
There is also other mistake you are making: Lot of the over the top anime is inspired by Mythology, both eastern and western. Cú Chulainn's myth and Journey to the West are both stories that really fit modern anime style. So as result, most things that take inspiration from mythology end up being perceived as similar to "anime", so people who say "They don't want things to get too anime, fighters shouldn't be able to split the mountains(but giants are okay)" are complaining about wrong subject.
Anyway, could you not derail the topic further please?
Speaking of subject of topic, I'm still wondering how certain colossal dragon's teeth were made into crown for a human <_< Like, umm, wouldn't single teeth be larger than a human unless it has really tiny head to rest of the body?
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Hollow it out and just wear it on your head.?
Speaking of subject of topic, I'm still wondering how certain colossal dragon's teeth were made into crown for a human <_< Like, umm, wouldn't single teeth be larger than a human unless it has really tiny head to rest of the body?
Considering that the teeth were stuck into box because they were indestructible and picture of the crown has multiple teeths in it :'D I don't know, maybe they filed off the tip of the teeth somehow?
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Considering that the teeth were stuck into box because they were indestructible and picture of the crown has multiple teeths in it :'D I don't know, maybe they filed off the tip of the teeth somehow?Hollow it out and just wear it on your head.?
Speaking of subject of topic, I'm still wondering how certain colossal dragon's teeth were made into crown for a human <_< Like, umm, wouldn't single teeth be larger than a human unless it has really tiny head to rest of the body?
I always got the impression it magically resized to fit the wearer, being an Artifact designed to seduce people to some degree. That makes the initial Crown very large, but makes perfect sense.