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I like the shadow effects from Gloomblade, but there really aren't enough of them. You've got 2 melee, 1 thrown, and 1 generic. And the generic one isn't all that good unless you're a sunder build. There should have been at least 5 or 6 more, if you ask me. It'd be nice if you could add the same one multiple times, like having a thrown weapon with 80 foot range.
Now that my complaining is done, this is really the best Fighter archetype I've seen since Lore Warden (the good one, not the s@##ty reprint version). Also, thank you so much for giving us a Fighter AT with Acrobatics and Perception as class skills! I hate so much how it doesn't get those by default...
As for the main question of the thread, I'm really liking Diabolic Style. It's so flavorful and I'm gonna take it on my AoO-focused Master of Many Styles, probably replacing Monkey Style. And Apocalyptic Spell is awesome. My group allows Kineticists to take almost all Metamagic feats with Expanded Metakinesis, so our explosion-themed Pyrokineticist is very excited about that.
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I've been reading the Dreamthief, and overall, find it AMAZING.
My desire to roll up a Helpful Halfling Unchained Rogue [Dreamthief], with Kindness, Healer's Hands, the Heal skill unlock, and the helpful trait is ... massive. Too bad I don't get to play often.
I did notice that despite serious efforts to make things smooth, there are a number of abilities that are ... awkward, due to the sheer nature of the fact that there is no Phantom to work with. Major props for how cleanly and concisely you did that!
Example of something that I wasn't sure on, but would be willing to go either way on:
If the Dreamthief is both the phantom and spiritualist, does that mean they always get the Skill Focus feats referenced in Skills?
Examples that seem logically not useful:
the Suffering L12 ability, and other similar effects. Suffering in Stead. One can not both prevent oneself from being affected, by making oneself be affected.
Hatred gives Weapon Finesse, which combines awkwardly with an Unchained Rogue. (That said, this is still an Solid emotion to take, in my opinion, ymmv)
There are a couple things like that, but most of those for a home brew game, could be easily replaced with a Rogue Talent ... or something. Nothing gained is totally an option that I'd be [u]willing[/u] to work with for several of the options, it's that smooth an archetype.
If a Phantom Ability granted at a given level is physically impossible, the Dreamthief gains 1 Rogue Talent (Or Weapon Focus, or 1d6 Sneak Attack, other small boon here) instead.
Despair, Hatred, and Kindness Dreamthief options make me happy, in ways I have difficulty putting into words. (I DM more than I play, by the player's choice, so that says quite a bit.)
You asked for thoughts, and there's mine! (Yes, I did really like the other archetypes you did too! ... but not quite as much.)
Wait... I just thought of an NPC for a Mummy's Mask game I'm running that's a halfling.... ZAP! Class change!
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Healer's Hands is crazy - hardly a waste of a feat.
With the Heal skill unlock, at 5th level onwards, one becomes able to heal 3*level HP AND 2 points of ability damage as a full round action for nearly no cost. This can be repeated 5+ times per day.
At 10th level, with this feat and the skill unlock, we are looking at 5* level + 4 points of ability damage as a full round action. that is better than anything but the Heal Spell or extended Greater Path of Glory.
If I ever play a rogue, I will 100% be grabbing this feat. Even if I'm not playing one, it'll be on the radar.
I’m not playing a rogue, and I’m seriously considering retraining one of my inquisitor’s feats into Healer’s Hands if it becomes PFS legal. Because 38 points of healing from treat deadly wounds is about 130% of what I can do with a cure critical at 11th level.
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Gloomblade is the obvious for "Why the hell wasn't this an archetype sooner?" reasons, and it also does what it sets out to do without needless complications to its abilities. Though it does seem odd that there's a feat that only that specific archetype can take to make its abilities work properly for thrown weapons, makes you think that it really should have been baked into the archetype from the start... I can only assume they plan on making more archetypes in the future with the shadow weapon ability?
Other than that, I like the rules for increased and decreased gravity. Though again, considering its introduced in this book and there are at least 3 feats (not including subjective/directional gravity ones) that only function in light/heavy gravity, there only seems to be one way of actually modifying it (idealist cleric) and only a whopping two planes (weird demiplanes at that) that have either light or heavy gravity. Meaning at this time there is 3 feats for just one cleric archetype - that would also have to be locked into worshipping very specific deities to even be able to make use of them. Other characters could technically pick the feats up, but unless you know you're going to be spending the majority of a campaign on one of these two (very very niche) demiplanes you wont really be able to make use of them... Again, I can only assume they plan on making more abilities in the future that modify gravity levels? (Which I would love, especially if made available as a low-level spell or as magical utility for martial classes.)
Correct me if I'm wrong on either of these or have missed anything about them - and dont mistake this for me being negative about the book, it's got some really good stuff in there and these are genuinely two of my favorite things!
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Lots of Good Stuff
I am also in love with this Archetype, even with all the weird Phantom/Spiritualist interactions that resulted in dead levels...or I was until I realized that Debilitating Strike doesn't work with any Phantom but Hatred (by RAW) and even then it only starts working at 12th level as written.
So, Isabella Lee, I've got a couple of questions for you about the archetype myself.
1: Like Roon asked, do you get Skill Focus with the skills? By RAW I would not assume so since the Phantom is not held within the Rogue's consciousness since the Rogue is, itself, the Phantom.
2a: For spirits like the Anger spirit's Strength Focus (Or Lust's Constitution Focus), do you gain the +2 Strength, -2 Dexterity from the stat change? By RAW I would read that you do. This is a little weird and allows the Rogue to do some silly things with a dip.
2b: Strength Focus also says that you gain Strength instead of Dexterity as you level up, but by RAW we do not gain those bonuses. Does Strength/Con focus scale?
3: Several Phantoms have abilities that simply do not work and you do not gain any compensation for the loss of these levels? Is there any plan to erretra some kind of benefit for those levels? Like the ability to take a d6 of Sneak attack damage instead of an ability? Anyway, The dead levels include the following:
Anger: None or Strength Focus at 1st level
Dedication: Devoted Servant at 12th level
Despair: None
Desperation: None
Fear: None
Greed: Assume Effect at 7th level and Take It With You at 17th level
Hatred: Weapon Finesse at Level One
Jealousy: Mine to Take at 17th Level
Lust: Constituion Focus at Level 1 and/or Alluring Presence at Level 1
Pride: None
Remorse: None
Suffering: Suffer In Stead at 12th level (works at 18th once improved)
Zeal: Steadfast Servant at 12th level
As you can see, that is 8-10 options across the phantoms that do nothing.
Here it isOh well.... the last PF1 cleric archetype ends as predicted.... terrible/pointless
Gains some spont casting of a few spells that clerics can 95% prepare anyway.....
Trades out channelling....which granted I dont like anyway, but does at least provide good out of combat healing..... for basically a minor boost on intimidate.
The ultimate PF riddle...... what is it with Paizo and cleric archetypes eh?!
All those years ago, I should have offered my services for free in order to get some half decent ones out there!
I suggest reading the rules on planar traits before dismissing the archetype.
Let's take a look at a Cleric of Iomedae as a really simple example. Heaven has the Strongly Aligned trait for Law and Good, AND Enhanced Magic for Law and Good.
What this means is, when you channel your realm, all good-aligned spells get +2 to CL. ...but that's not all! Any chaotic or evil aligned creatures suffer a -2 penalty to their will saves from the strong alignment.
Nah, Will saves aren’t “wisdom based checks.”
The description for the Improved Plane Shift feat includes "The time required for you to identify a portal’s destination is reduced to 1 round." I can't find anything that says how to identify a portal's destination normally or how long it would take. What book is that in?
I'm not sure, to be honest. That feat was one that was requested by development, and I was writing it blind to the possibility of rules for such existing. The only place I can think of to check would be the Hell's Vengeance Adventure Path (specifically, The Inferno Gate), which had an article on the subject. But I doubt a hardcover source would be referencing that.
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I'm amazed we still don't have a method to cut silver cords.
Gloomblade is the obvious for "Why the hell wasn't this an archetype sooner?" reasons, and it also does what it sets out to do without needless complications to its abilities. Though it does seem odd that there's a feat that only that specific archetype can take to make its abilities work properly for thrown weapons, makes you think that it really should have been baked into the archetype from the start... I can only assume they plan on making more archetypes in the future with the shadow weapon ability?
I suspect not. They'll be sticking a fork in pathfinder soon to do 2nd edition, and I'm guessing we've probably seen about 99.5% of the archetypes that will ever exist. We know this was the last hardcover anyway.
I hope we get another batch of Archetypes through smaller releases but I assume there will be few if any. As much as I want to see more, I have to admit that the quantity and quality of archetypes we already have is what makes Pathfinder the most dynamic and customizable class based system I've ever seen.
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For the Gloomblade, apply whatever interpretation of advanced weapon training you gave to the Molthune Arsenal Chaplain, a warpriest archetype which is three and a half years old and also gets weapon training without training in a specific group but is nonetheless eligible to take the advanced weapon training feat. It's the exact same situation.
Paizo has never offered specific guidelines on how this works with the MAC, but nonetheless a lot of tables have figured it out (since, well, it's the best warpriest archetype.)
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Eh, I dunno about RAW, but I read it as you effectively have Weapon Group (shadow weapons).
Not sure how defensible that is, but it does say you don't select additional weapon groups, which kinda implies you have one? I'm aware that's a pretty pedantic argument.
In any case, as you said, the only thing that feels problematic with that is abusing Weapon Sacrifice, so outside of PFS it's probably no big deal.
I guess the issue comes from the very first sentence in that class feature.
At 5th level, a gloomblade gains weapon training, except that he does not select a weapon group; instead, the bonus applies to the shadow weapons he creates.You could read that in two way I think.
1: You don't select a weapon group, it is selected for you. Namely Shadow Weapons.
2: You simply don't select a weapon group, meaning you don't get any. The weapon training bonus applying to Shadow Weapons is a replacement for that.
So I guess the intention is quite interesting here and not just the wording.But I agree, many GMs will probably be fine with combining it as long as you don't go Weapon Sacrifice and possibly Fighter's Finesse.
Hello everyone,
I know that I am necroing this thread.I would like to know if the options available with the Advanced weapon training feat for the Gloomblade as per the discussion above have been clarified?
Thanks
Isabelle Lee might chime in, as she designed the archetype and appears to still be somewhat active on the forums.
But given that it literally says a Gloomblade gains Weapon Training, and Weapon Training is the prerequisite for Advanced Weapon Training, I would say it probably works. It is worded differently than a lot of archetypes that replace Weapon Training, and Gloomblade says that you receive Weapon Training, by name.