| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
So this post is to give a headstart toward the August 1st release for those considering playing martial PCs. With every class progressing in attack rolls, hypothetically all the classes could go martial. With the lack of some class blogs, this may be premature, but I had an itch and posting now will give time for discussion (and revision of any errors).
(And I would not mind other "Prep Guide" posts alongside!)
General:
-Shields are competitive in this system (granting DR on top of AC), though they take action investment. Simulated battles show a sword & shield PC has a 60/40 advantage vs. a two-handed weapon (THW) PC (though that doesn't factor in multiple enemies and other variables, such as how well do magic shields progress vs. magic weapons.)
-Shields are no longer weapons, but a boss (bludgeoning) or spikes (piercing) can be added, and they are fully weapons that can be moved from shield to shield. Since shields can get dented then destroyed by stronger attacks, this is kinda necessary.
-Shields won't get magic AC bonuses (armor still will), but will get other magic abilities...like hopefully breaking less often.
-Base weapon damage gets multiplied often (i.e. add 1 die per +1 of weapon) so THW PCs got some love too, though it does appear Strength damage is not multiplied by 1.5 in PF2.
-Power Attack adds a weapon die (w/ more added later), but also takes an extra action. Still a good choice for THF, but not a must-have.
-Two-Weapon Fighting (TWF) is back and contends with THW for damage, but money, buffs, sneak attack, etc. will influence this.
-Bonus dice (including Sneak Attack) do get multiplied on a crit.
-Flat-footed gives -2 to AC (only) and is a common advantage gained by flanking, tripping, feinting, and more, so don't expect to stack lots of conditonal penalties.
-Each +1 to attack (when within normal attack ranges) will also give a +1 chance to crit, so bonuses/debuffs are twice as valuable.
-Maneuvers: Offense based on Acrobatics & Athletics. Fortitude & Reflex bonuses (+10) seem to be the default defenses. Not much is known here though most of the maneuvers are returning.
-Archery: Really haven't seen class feats supporting this or even general feats. The new action economy favors melee (or seems to), as do shields, but having fewer attacks of opportunity out there aids archers. Being a switch-hitter seems more doable in PF2 (money aside).
-Weapon Choices: With all the new weapon traits, this might be as complex as choosing a class! You'll want a weapon that meshes with your feat/style/combo choices, and there are different approaches to boss battles, thug gangs, and minion hordes.
-DR/Weakness: There's less DR now, as some DR (i.e. fey vs. cold iron) has become a weakness that adds damage and other weapons do their normal damage. So there's still a place for THF to punch through DR, but also times when lots of smaller attacks take advantage of a weakness.
-Weapon sizes: It was stated (though I have a hard time accepting it) that small & medium weapons will do the same damage. Also, weapon damage will progress less with size (likely because weapon damage gets multiplied so much more in PF2.)
Main gang
BARBARIANS:
Offense: More damage (via Rage)
Defense: Temp h.p. & lower AC (both via Rage), more h.p.
Mobility: Likely still have access to fast movement & Rage powers which boost alternate movement types.
Wild Cards: Like in PF1, totems unlock some crazy stuff like flight, anti-magic, and more. Fatigue every 4th round. Other Rage powers.
Any alignment now (IIRC)
FIGHTERS:
Offense: Weapon proficiency increases faster (so more crits)
Attacks of Opportunity as a Reaction (multiple later, IIRC)
Defense: Best shield user, can be best in armor too
Mobility: Some feats combine attacks w/ movement
Wild Cards: "Combos" can set up better follow-up attacks, conditions, maneuvers, perhaps AC boosts, and who knows what else. Appear to get the best action economy w/ both weapons & shields.
Lots of positive playtest feedback on versatility & fun!
MONKS:
Offense: More attacks than others, and has special attacks, but must invest a feat if you want weapon proficiency
Defense: Saves; w/ bracers or Mage Armor AC can contend w/ other martials
Mobility: It's a Monk...
Wild Cards: Ki abilities open up lots of options. The strikes w/ special abilities are a mixed bag. There are various fighting styles too.
Also any alignment now.
PALADIN:
Offense: Damage vs. enemies w/ weakness to Good
Defense: Best w/ armor, Divine Grace as reaction, self-healing, auras, the royalty of defense
Mobility: It's a Paladin...
Wild Cards: Not sure what form its holy abilities will take
Still LG
RANGER: (pre-blog post)
Offense: Favored enemy? Hopefully more like a Slayer now.
Defense: Likely nothing special
Mobility: Likely terrain based, maybe foot speed too.
Wild Cards: Pets? Teamwork? Traps? What level of skills? TWF? Archery? Other combat styles? Debuff/assassination?
ROGUE:
Offense: Sneak Attack (easier in PF2) & debuffs, also believed only Dex-to-damage class, but w/ smaller weapons
Defense: Debuffs, +2 AC as reaction, fewer h.p., Evasion
Mobility: Nothing special noted, but hopefully can feint while moving and weave through melee.
Wild Cards: Unknown how powerful their ample skills (especially Acrobatics & Athletics) will be in combat.
Other classes
Not sure how many combat feats are available via general feats, which I think most of these classes would rely on.
Alchemist: Throwing alchemy is their main shtick. Will have less-powerful mutagens that come online later, but can be distributed. One playtester refrained from mutagens because he was so strong! Alchemists are a wild card, especially with the expanded alchemy available.
Bards: A melee contender if built for it (according to one playtester), but little is known of how their songs & spells would aid here. Likely they don't have special martial abilities and rely on standard attacks & bardic buffs.
Cleric: Likely using standard attacks w/ spell buffs, but with the expansion of domain powers, expect some divine boosts from Strength, War, etc. Also can self-heal while attacking.
Druid: Sounds like both pets & shape-shifters will make for viable melee combatants, but don't expect this to be simple!
Wizard/Sorcerer: The action economy & rarity of attacks of opportunity allow for them to strike & cast each round, but even if they get a spell-strike ability (like a Magus), it'd take some system mastery to go melee with such low h.p.
Hope that's helpful to some of y'all,
Cheers
Thanks again Castilliano!
A few comments:
There's a Youtube video online about a person who Playtested a level 3 Rogue and he gives some great info about Archery on top of that. Check it out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veAXf-AcVgI
I'm curious as to what you mean that the Fighter is the best shield user... Is it because they previewed Shield feats in the Fighter blog? Those are pretty sweet, but we have yet to see if the Paladin gets some of those feats or if the Paladin's Righteous Shield Ally will be competitive...
The Paladin part should have Retributive Strike mentioned in it. The devs are placing a lot of effort in making the Paladin less about smiting evil, more "protecting my friends."
Thanks again Castilliano!
A few comments:
There's a Youtube video online about a person who Playtested a level 3 Rogue and he gives some great info about Archery on top of that. Check it out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veAXf-AcVgII'm curious as to what you mean that the Fighter is the best shield user... Is it because they previewed Shield feats in the Fighter blog? Those are pretty sweet, but we have yet to see if the Paladin gets some of those feats or if the Paladin's Righteous Shield Ally will be competitive...
The Paladin part should have Retributive Strike mentioned in it. The devs are placing a lot of effort in making the Paladin less about smiting evil, more "protecting my friends."
You're welcome. And thanks for your post.
A Paizo dev said Fighters would be best at shields (and weapons), but yes, a Paladin might be able to contend, much like Paladins are best with armor, but with feat investment a Fighter can catch up. Best refers at minimum to being able to hit Legendary proficiency, and yes, class feats can amplify this.I'm unsure how to stack Paladin self-buffs against other mechanics, so they're a bit of a wild card to me.
Retributive Strike seemed too circumstantial (only when enemy in reach crits an ally), but your general point bears repeating that Paladins aren't just great at personal defense, but at defending others too.
Cheers
|
Retributive Strike seemed too circumstantial (only when enemy in reach crits an ally), but your general point bears repeating that Paladins aren't just great at personal defense, but at defending others too.
Uh...per the Paladin Blog you can use it whenever they hit, not crit, an ally.
The Antipaladin version seems to be only on a crit, but works when you personally are attacked, not just allies other than you.
Retributive Strike seemed too circumstantial (only when enemy in reach crits an ally), but your general point bears repeating that Paladins aren't just great at personal defense, but at defending others too.Uh...per the Paladin Blog you can use it whenever they hit, not crit, an ally.
The Antipaladin version seems to be only on a crit, but works when you personally are attacked, not just allies other than you.
Thanks!
ROGUE:
Offense: Sneak Attack (easier in PF2) & debuffs, also believed only Dex-to-damage class, but w/ smaller weapons
Is this still being speculated? I thought I'd read somewhere confirmation this isn't happening. Happy to be wrong, though, as it helps with my plans for Rogue :)
Hi, I think you missed the thing where Pallies can use Lay on Hands to buff AC, and where Barbs get what is basically evasion with fort saves. (I think both were mentioned in their respective blogs)
Also, I wonder if the AC penalty on flat-footed is actually so it doesn't compete with other conditional modifiers?
Barbs get what is basically evasion with fort saves.
They treat Success rolls as Critical Success rolls from Master proficiency. I think this is 7th level?
Is this still being speculated? I thought I'd read somewhere confirmation this isn't happening. Happy to be wrong, though, as it helps with my plans for Rogue :)ROGUE:
Offense: Sneak Attack (easier in PF2) & debuffs, also believed only Dex-to-damage class, but w/ smaller weapons
I don't think dex to damage has ever been confirmed by devs. I think it is just folks assuming since the Unchained Rogue got dex to damage and so much PF2 stuff is coming from unchained.
Barbs get what is basically evasion with fort saves.They treat Success rolls as Critical Success rolls from Master proficiency. I think this is 7th level?
From the Monk blog it turns out it isn't directly from Master proficiency, it just happens to usually coincide with Master proficiency.
I don't think dex to damage has ever been confirmed by devs. I think it is just folks assuming since the Unchained Rogue got dex to damage and so much PF2 stuff is coming from unchained.
IIRC I think it came up in the Glass Cannon podcast. Could be wrong, but I know it did come up in some proper (aka non-speculative) capacity at some point.
|
|
I don't think dex to damage has ever been confirmed by devs. I think it is just folks assuming since the Unchained Rogue got dex to damage and so much PF2 stuff is coming from unchained.
No, the Rogue in various demo games has Dex-to-damage with her rapier (and other finesse weapons) from level 1, and has throughout the timeline in a wide variety of such games (Glass Cannon included). So it's an option in some way.
I believe someone even mentioned seeing it on her list of Class Feats, so that's probably what it is.
I don't think dex to damage has ever been confirmed by devs. I think it is just folks assuming since the Unchained Rogue got dex to damage and so much PF2 stuff is coming from unchained.No, the Rogue in various demo games has Dex-to-damage with her rapier (and other finesse weapons) from level 1, and has throughout the timeline in a wide variety of such games (Glass Cannon included). So it's an option in some way.
I believe someone even mentioned seeing it on her list of Class Feats, so that's probably what it is.
Good to know. Trust Deadmanwalking he knows the all the things.
So here's a Post-Ranger Blog update
RANGER: Offense: Chooses target to lower range & iterative penalties
Defense: Evasion (so most vulnerable martial w/ Rogue)
Mobility: Ignore difficult terrain (later)
Wild Cards: Yes, highly skilled & quite perceptive
The Ranger can be built around several tactics.
Dabbling not recommended, as they start slow or fall behind.
-Animal Companion: As Druid, hints Ranger can exceed
-Teamwork: Can grant bonuses to allies.
Seem to be based on lore checks & complement Bard boosts.
-Traps: They ramp up to at-will terrain control & damage.
(And no spells in PF2, but they hinted there might be options later.)
I have to add that Rangers seem like the most tactically difficult (though perhaps rewarding) martial to master because their default offensive trick is based around getting better iterative attacks, yet it also takes them actions to choose an enemy, share lore, set up traps, and/or control their pet, so their default is to get fewer iterative attacks until set up. Plus, they'll need to take an action to choose a new enemy when they drop one (until very high level). Also their defense doesn't encourage going toe-to-toe, even though they'll likely shine against solo enemies or when hasted.
Rangers really do need their monster lore just so they can plan.
Update on previous classes
BARBARIAN: Defense: "Evasion" for Fortitude
FIGHTER: Does have an archery stance, Point Blank Shot, which increases close damage by +2 (for a 3rd level PC). Unknown if available to others
PALADIN: Offense: Does have attack reaction if ally hit (DMW FTW)
Defense: Elleth mentioned AC bonus w/ Lay on Hands
Wild Card: mount/weapon/defense boost w/ magic
Note how the attack reaction vies with Divine Grace (also a reaction).
ROGUE: Lower Sneak Attack (+1d6 at 3rd level)
ARCHERY: Longbows have a "volley" trait which makes them poor at closer ranges. It's presumed that short bows will finally have a close-quarters niche to fill.
Ranger has ability to negate close range penalties, and a load on the move action for crossbow.
Also see Fighter above.
Alchemist: Poisons more effective & cheaper. Might have poison options for daily allotment of alchemy.
Cheers
-Archery: Really haven't seen class feats supporting this or even general feats. The new action economy favors melee (or seems to), as do shields, but having fewer attacks of opportunity out there aids archers. Being a switch-hitter seems more doable in PF2 (money aside).
Can you explain the reasoning here? The action economy would seem to favor ranged attackers, as you don't have to burn actions to move to engage, and melee enemies have to burn actions to get to you.
Animal Companion: As Druid, hints Ranger can exceed
Direct statement that ranger has some exclusive options. Not the same thing.
-Archery: Really haven't seen class feats supporting this or even general feats. The new action economy favors melee (or seems to), as do shields, but having fewer attacks of opportunity out there aids archers. Being a switch-hitter seems more doable in PF2 (money aside).Can you explain the reasoning here? The action economy would seem to favor ranged attackers, as you don't have to burn actions to move to engage, and melee enemies have to burn actions to get to you.
@Voss, I feel it's actually more that the PF1e action economy heavily disfavored melee. Having played with the Unchained action economy, which shares similarities with the PF2e action economy, it was a pretty substantial buff for melee. So archers "lost ground" relative to melee, even though I feel they were still a bit ahead.
Of course, all of that applies to a system built around numbers that are changing. I believe that the advantages of not having to move may still slightly favor archers, but how much depends on (1) average damage of melee vs ranged per hit, and (2) how much the "tighter math" in PF2e puts a damper on that third attack at -10.
-Archery: Really haven't seen class feats supporting this or even general feats. The new action economy favors melee (or seems to), as do shields, but having fewer attacks of opportunity out there aids archers. Being a switch-hitter seems more doable in PF2 (money aside).Can you explain the reasoning here? The action economy would seem to favor ranged attackers, as you don't have to burn actions to move to engage, and melee enemies have to burn actions to get to you.
Animal Companion: As Druid, hints Ranger can exceedDirect statement that ranger has some exclusive options. Not the same thing.
Re: Archery vs. Melee
Archers should often get the first triple attack (or even two attacks and a retreat to try to kite their enemies or gain cover.) Their damage is usually factored around them getting a round or two advantage (which in rocket tag PF1, is an eternity). But PF2's action economy helps the melee warrior more than the archer.In PF1, a standard warrior moves 20'-30' w/ one attack (though can double that on a charge if available.) Unless they take a feat, they have no good options for blocking incoming arrows. No matter how fast they are (i.e. hasted Barbarian), if they have to move over 5', they get one attack. (Exceptions existed, but took investment.)
In PF2, a standard warrior moves 40'-50' because they get two move actions w/ one attack (though need a feat to get a good charge going.)
Also, if they can close with one move, they can get two attacks (which likely might be their preference anyway.) So if they have faster movement (Elf Barbarian?), they'll nearly always get those two attacks (or one nice two-action attack).
And with no investment other than getting a shield, a warrior can block the first arrow, likely without getting a Dent (or being an NPC who doesn't care about Dents). As far as we know, there is no way in PF2 for archers to launch a barrage to overcome this (since we don't know if Manyshot & Rapid Shot exist). With the first arrow blocked, archers will fire at -5/-10, with a mundane shield user closing at 40'-50'/round while blocking, 20'-25' while blocking & attacking.
To me, at standard encounter distances, this new action economy seems to have shifted the balance of power toward melee.
Plus, since we now know about the volley weapon trait/flaw, it looks like archers have lost further ground in skirmishes (which most encounters are). And battles are meant to be a few rounds longer.
Note that I'm not saying archers won't win archery contests because there will still be long-range battles in the mix. And there might be nice trick shots which slow or trip one's enemies. Who knows?
Re: Ranger pets
I think starting equal, then having exclusive options on top of that does mean a Ranger's pet can exceed a Druid's pet. That said, I hope a pet-focused Druid can catch back up, perhaps with their own exclusive feats, but maybe the same ones (but excluding non-Druid/Rangers who get their pet some other way).
On animal companions even if the ranger has a slightly stronger compabion from class features alone I am sure the druid will have spells that make theirs stronger if only for a limited time
For Ranger Wild Card I think it's worth including they'll have the best initiative across the board. That is between their range of skill proficiencies and bonuses from class features/feats will give them high initiative in many scenarios.
I thought I noticed the Rogue doing less static damage during the last couple of Glass Cannon episodes. Adding +2 instead of +4, so I wonder if they decided to remove Dex-to-Damage from the playtest.
Of course it's possible that I just misinterpreted.
I thought I noticed the Rogue doing less static damage during the last couple of Glass Cannon episodes. Adding +2 instead of +4, so I wonder if they decided to remove Dex-to-Damage from the playtest.
Of course it's possible that I just misinterpreted.
someone please confirm, champagne on ice waiting
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
They're a trifle inconsistent on how much damage they add to things since they're still unfamiliar with the game, but I see no indications of that. The Rogue adds no static damage on their first attack at all (clearly an error), adds an unknown amount (between +1 and +4 based on math) on their attacks in the second combat, adds nothing beyond the die in the third combat because they're using a torch rather than a conventional weapon (and deals only fire damage), and in the final fight they may or may not add a bonus, doing 11 damage on 2d6 on their one actual successful attack in the whole fight.
That's not a meaningful indication of anything.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It is important to remember the playtesters aren't computers, and likely don't have eidetic memories. They are gonna make mistakes on occasion, especially so with a 'new' system that is just similar enough to systems you already know to make displacing one rule with another easy. For examples:
What level, and with which weapons a rogue applies dex-to-damage; if any...
How much damage you deal with a +1 Expert-Quality Longsword...
I wouldn't read too much into the minor inconsistancies. Hopefully they'll make a point of correcting themselves on anything major... otherwise we have less than a month left before we can verify for ourselves.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I will likely just run calcs on all martial classes to compare outputs and such.
I think the shield will make a big difference against archers; with one action they can negate the first attack completely and get DR/hardness against the others. DR always screws with an archer until they can get clustered shots, which may not be available in core pf2.
Assuming This is still true, this means that archers will be most effective during the first round if they get initiative. Since rangers are the best at this, and get some nice boosts too, they will be effective archers.
The only thing that concerns me is that it appears that it will take one action to ready your weapon, if they take another action to activate their special ability (hunt target?), that only leaves one action to strike with before the opponents raise shields.
Of course there will be opponents who don't have shields, and an archer will remain competent against those, so it will be a matter of picking targets I suppose.
I think the shield will make a big difference against archers; with one action they can negate the first attack completely and get DR/hardness against the others. DR always screws with an archer until they can get clustered shots, which may not be available in core pf2.
How are they doing this? Shield users can use their reaction to Shield block/get DR against one attack, not all of the attacks.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
someone please confirm, champagne on ice waitingI thought I noticed the Rogue doing less static damage during the last couple of Glass Cannon episodes. Adding +2 instead of +4, so I wonder if they decided to remove Dex-to-Damage from the playtest.
Of course it's possible that I just misinterpreted.
Well, I can confirm that the Merisiel at the Delves had DEX to damage... I think it was from a feat.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Because I enjoy making lists and seeing the big picture, here are some lists I put together of the Martial class features. Hope this helps...
I'll start with the Ranger:
Level 1- Hunt Target
Level 3- Weapon Expert(?)
Level 5- Trackless Step
Level 7- Evasion
Level 9- Nature's Edge
Level 11- Wild Stride
Level 13- Weapon Mastery
Level 15- Improved Evasion
Level 17- Master Hunter
Level 19- Swift Target
The Ranger was one of the easiest lists to put together, the blog gave us all the class features.
Though they didn't say what the Ranger got at Level 3, but it is a fair assumption that the Martial classes get a boost to attacks at that level. (Fighter's Weapon Mastery, Barb's Rage Crit Specialization, Monk's Unarmed expert, etc...)
The next easiest was the Monk...
Level 1-Powerful Fist, Flurry of Blows, Unarmoured Expert
Level 3- Incredible Movement (+10 ft), Magic Strikes, Unarmed Expert
Level 5- Metal Strikes
Level 6- Incredible Movement (+15 ft)
Level 7- Path to Perfection
Level 9- Incredible Movement (+20 ft), Fierce Flurry
Level 11- Path to Perfection
Level 12- Incredible Movement (+25 ft)
Level 13- Unarmoured Master
Level 15- Incredible Movement (+30 ft), Path to Perfection
Level 17- Legendary Unarmoured, Adamantine Strikes
Level 18- Incredible Movement (+35 ft)
Level 19- Perfected Form
Level 20- Enduring Quickness
Here's the Barbarian...
Level 1-Rage, Totem
Level 3- Rage Critical Specialization, Weapon Expert
Level 5- Light & Medium Armour Expert(?)
Level 7- Juggernaut
Level 9- Totem Resistance
Level 11- Mighty Rage
Level 13- Improved Juggernaut
Level 15- Indomitable Will
Level 17- Tireless Rage
Level 19- Devastating Strike
I have reason to believe that the Armour proficiencies go up at Level 5... Could be wrong here though.
Edit- Weapon Expert at Level 3
And now the Paladin. Here's the hardest to purse out because we were given mostly info on feats and the Code. But here's my best guess...
Level 1- Deific Weapon, Retributive Strike, Lay on Hands
Level 3- Righteous Ally, Weapon Expert(?)
Level 5- Armour Expert(?)
Level 7- Litanies(?)
Level 9- Holy Smite(?)
Level 11- Aura of Justice(?)
Level 13-Armour Master
Level 15-Weapons Master(?)
Level 17-Armour Legend
Level 19-Hero's Defiance
The only abilities we know for sure what level we get them is the Level 1 abilities, Rigteous Ally, and Hero's Defiance. Everything else I had to figure out by off handed remarks, positioning in blogs or language used. (It took me a while to establish that Litanies are a feature not a feat) The Master and Legend in Armour plays off the Monk (the other Legendary Armour class) and feels right. I'm interested how close I am when the Playtest hits...
I have reason to believe that the Armour proficiencies go up at Level 5... Could be wrong here though.I'd bet on Weapon Proficiency going up over Armor Proficiency for Barbarian.
Actually, I should put weapon proficiency at level 3 as well...
Man at the rate you guys are going we won't need the playtest document CHEERS MATES!
And the Rogue...
Level 1- Sneak Attack
Level 3- Weapon Expert(?)
Level 5- Armour Expert(?)
Level 7- Evasion(?)
Level 9- Debilitating Strikes
Level 11-???
Level 13-Slippery Mind(?)
Level 15- Improved Evasion(?)
Level 17-Double Debilitation(?)
Level 19- Master Strike
Ugh, we have little to no info on the Rogue as to when they get class features. Sneak Attack, Debilitation Strike, and Master Strike is all we know... Should Double Debilitation be 15 or 17?...
Edit- As per DMW, I changed slippery mind, evasion, and Imp. evasion. I moved down Double debilitation. I'm not touching Sneak Attack, weapon and armour proficiencies for now. Not enough info. And I decided to leave the skill feats and ranks out because that was every level. Took those for granted...
|
|
We know Rogues get Evasion, probably at 7th level, and Slippery Mind is thus more likely 13th or 15th. They may well also get Improved Evasion in there.
Sneak Attack also goes up, but probably not at 3rd level (since someone mentioned playing a 3rd level Rogue in a delve with only 1d6 Sneak Attack). Personally, I bet on it going up at 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th.
I also wouldn't be surprised if their Armor Expert never shows and their Weapon Expert shows up a fair bit later (though those are speculative).
And there's the Extra Skill Feats and Skill Ranks, of course.
Ok, last but not least... The Fighter!
Level 1- Attacks of Opportunity, Expert Perception
Level 3- Weapon Mastery, Stances(?)
Level 5- Armour Expert(?)
Level 7- Battlefield Surveyor(?)
Level 9- Flexibility
Level 11-???
Level 13- Legendary Weapon
Level 15- Improved Flexiblity
Level 17- Armour Mastery(?)
Level 19- Legendary Martial and Simple Weapons
I can tell the Designers were a lot more tight lip about the classes in the beginning. The earlier the blogs are the less they tell us exactly when we get the abilities. But here you go, feel free to point out mistakes or clarifications...
I really hope they get a lot more abilities than the ones you listed. If that's all there is it looks like really not much, the rogue is the only class with a decent amount because it gets 10 extra skill ranks/feats. I think the other martials will get more things too, or they really won't compare well to casters with a level of casting every odd level.
|
|
I really hope they get a lot more abilities than the ones you listed. If that's all there is it looks like really not much, the rogue is the only class with a decent amount because it gets 10 extra skill ranks/feats. I think the other martials will get more things too, or they really won't compare well to casters with a level of casting every odd level.
I suspect most non-spellcasting Classes get at least two Class Features every odd level, but we'll need to take a look at it and see.
I really hope they get a lot more abilities than the ones you listed. If that's all there is it looks like really not much, the rogue is the only class with a decent amount because it gets 10 extra skill ranks/feats. I think the other martials will get more things too, or they really won't compare well to casters with a level of casting every odd level.I suspect most non-spellcasting Classes get at least two Class Features every odd level, but we'll need to take a look at it and see.
If the martial features count is consistent I'll be pretty happy, as it should make homebrewing easy.
Also, I agree with Vidmaster: cheers to you guys for putting this info together!
I feel it's pretty likely that everyone gets at the very least one feature every odd level that's not a proficiency increase.
Thanks guys!
These lists are made with the info that they've given us. There may be extra features that they haven't revealed yet. There's no way of knowing... Also, don't forget that we get Ancestry/General Feats every odd level as well. So even if the class only unlocks a proficiency increase, we may be able to unlock a sweet new feat at the same time. We just don't have the data to compare the martials vs casters.
Side note: I wonder if the casters get as many proficiency unlocks as the martials? All I know is that the Wizard and Cleric get proficiency unlocks to their respective spells. Do they get other proficiency increases?...
|
|
Side note: I wonder if the casters get as many proficiency unlocks as the martials? All I know is that the Wizard and Cleric get proficiency unlocks to their respective spells. Do they get other proficiency increases?...
I suspect they get some but not nearly as many (I'd be surprised to see a spellcaster ever get above Expert in Weapons or Armor, or get more than one Save above Expert). That's pure speculation, though.
Side note: I wonder if the casters get as many proficiency unlocks as the martials? All I know is that the Wizard and Cleric get proficiency unlocks to their respective spells. Do they get other proficiency increases?...I suspect they get some but not nearly as many (I'd be surprised to see a spellcaster ever get above Expert in Weapons or Armor, or get more than one Save above Expert). That's pure speculation, though.
I suspect so as well, which can make the proficiency increases a bigger deal for the martials. Therefore, I am fine with gaining only a proficiency increase at certain levels...
Completely out of left field, I'm wondering about Aldori Swordlords (and Ladies).
How do you build one with the current rules? They should be fighters, and yet they don't care for armors and shields.
I'm wondering if they'll be folded into swashbucklers (if swashbucklers will still exist, later on). They could theoretically work with the rogue chassis, but that would be a rather bad match imo.
Just wondering...
Ok, now here's a list of the known Martial Proficiency Increases, with some speculation at the end:
Perception- Fighter and Barbarian start with Expert; Fighter gets to Master.
Fortitude- Barbarian and Gray Maiden get Master; Barbarian gets Legendary.
Reflex- Ranger and Rogue* get Master; Ranger and Rogue* get Legendary.
Will- Barbarian and Rogue get Master.
Monk gets to choose any of the Saves and be proficient with them up to one Legendary.
Armour- Monk starts with Expert; Fighter, Gray Maiden, Monk, and Paladin get Master; Gray Maiden, Monk, and Paladin get Legendary.
Weapon- Fighter, Ranger, and Paladin get Master; Fighter gets Legendary.
I didn't put down all the Martials with the Weapon proficiencies. I just don't know for sure how that'll work. But it's safe to assume they will all get Expert and/or Master. Same with Armour.
It doesn't look like there's a Legendary Perception class, but I was hoping that Ranger would be at least Expert/Master. Also we're missing a Legendary Will Save class. Not sure who that will go to... Bard?
Finally, I'd like to see more classes get Master in one save. Fighter getting Fort and Paladin getting Will. Those would fit their PF1 counterparts quite well.
*I don't see any physical proof of the Rogue getting Evasion, (other than logically they should) perhaps I missed something DMW?...
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Completely out of left field, I'm wondering about Aldori Swordlords (and Ladies).
How do you build one with the current rules? They should be fighters, and yet they don't care for armors and shields.
Swordlords wear armor. As Dex-based, they usually wear light armor, but that's enough to get basically all the Proficiency bonuses. So yeah, I'd expect them to be Fighters with some of the Dex-stuff and an Exotic Weapon.
I didn't put down all the Martials with the Weapon proficiencies. I just don't know for sure how that'll work. But it's safe to assume they will all get Expert and/or Master. Same with Armour.
I'm still not positive Rogue will even get to Expert in armor, but I suspect that's generally correct.
It doesn't look like there's a Legendary Perception class, but I was hoping that Ranger would be at least Expert/Master.
I'd have to go back through the Ranger thread, but I think Mark said in it that Rangers have the best Perception Proficiency in the game. Which'd presumably be Legendary.
Also we're missing a Legendary Will Save class. Not sure who that will go to... Bard?
You can do it with Monk if you like by doubling up Path of Perfection bonuses. But yeah, no idea. Maybe Paladin? I could see that.
Finally, I'd like to see more classes get Master in one save. Fighter getting Fort and Paladin getting Will. Those would fit their PF1 counterparts quite well.
They easily might, we're clearly not getting all the Proficiency increases for any Class. I honestly think we only got the Classes that get Master earliest rather than all the ones who get it.
*I don't see any physical proof of the Rogue getting Evasion, (other than logically they should) perhaps I missed something DMW?...
Mark Seifter mentioned it in a post in the Rogue thread. No more info beyond them getting it (technically not even whether they get Improved Evasion, though it seems likely), but he did specify they get it.
Here's my list of what I think the Core martials should get for Legendary and Master Proficiencies:
Barbarian: Legendary Fort; Master Will and Perception(?) or Weapons(?)
Fighter: Legendary Weapons; Master Armour and Fort(?) or Perception(?)
Monk: Legendary Unarmoured and a Save*; Master two Saves*
Paladin: Legendary Armour; Master Weapons and Will Saves(?)
Ranger: Legendary Ref; Master Weapons and Perception(?)
Rogue: Legendary Ref(?); Master Will
*Players choice to be either Legendary in one Save or Master in two.
I remember the designers stating that the classes will get one Legendary Proficiency and 1-2 (roughly) Master Proficiencies. So I built the classes as such. I like the idea of Martials getting 1 Legendary and 2 Masters. Rogue I'm not sure what else they could get, but they have all the skills to make up for just having one Master... Also the Monk has the unique position of getting to choose what they get. Two Master Saves or 1 Legendary Save. (that is if I'm reading the Monk blog right...) What do you guys think?
DMW,
I see now in my notes that Rangers get Expert Perception. (This was stated at the PaizoCon panel by Stephen) So we now have 3 classes that start with Expert perception. (Fighter, Barb and Ranger)
I don't think that the Paladin will get two Legendary proficiencies. (Armour and Will) So I was thinking a class that has yet to be previewed.
Thanks for the update on the Rogue. It makes the most sense for them to get Legendary Ref. It's interesting that two classes get it though...