Careful, I had a DM nerf that spell down to only providing air after the third environmental/noxious gas thing it negated because "it wouldn't be in the adventure if you were meant to ignore it that easily"
Luckily, I'm the GM in my group and only play SFS where they can't do that. It's not like it doesn't cost you anything. You're losing out on a spell known slot and you don't have an infinite number of those. I for one don't consider that 'easily' ignoring it.
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I find that using CON only (rather than Fortitude Save) to resist Disease and Poison makes them both far more realistic/effective/deadly - after all a disease cares not how experienced a person is, simply how good their resistance is.
By that theory you shouldn't give people extra HP either, and everyone dies before level 5.
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If you have a Mystic or TM with the spell, they can also just cast the spell on up to 4 people every 4 days and not worry about the armor protection at all. It's actually a spell I would consider taking at 4th because of how useful it is for this sort of scenario.Careful, I had a DM nerf that spell down to only providing air after the third environmental/noxious gas thing it negated because "it wouldn't be in the adventure if you were meant to ignore it that easily"
what an awful decision by that GM. My group technomage picked up that spell, and it helped the group greatly in a few situations. Which is what a situationally useful spell is supposed to do.
That said, there are quite a lot of not very bright traps in this AP, including traps that enviromental suits ignore completely. I think it shows how early this AP is in SF life cycle, with many authors' mindsets still stuck in PF.
If you have a Mystic or TM with the spell, they can also just cast the spell on up to 4 people every 4 days and not worry about the armor protection at all. It's actually a spell I would consider taking at 4th because of how useful it is for this sort of scenario.Careful, I had a DM nerf that spell down to only providing air after the third environmental/noxious gas thing it negated because "it wouldn't be in the adventure if you were meant to ignore it that easily"what an awful decision by that GM. My group technomage picked up that spell, and it helped the group greatly in a few situations. Which is what a situationally useful spell is supposed to do.
That said, there are quite a lot of not very bright traps in this AP, including traps that enviromental suits ignore completely. I think it shows how early this AP is in SF life cycle, with many authors' mindsets still stuck in PF.
I hate that the setting both enables gas traps (by having a level of technology where poison gas vents make a lot of sense) and makes them largely irrelevant (by enabling environmental protections to ignore them).
I also wonder if the full day of environmental protections for each item level is a bit too generous... I feel like vacuums and hostile environments would be more dramatic if your oxygen supply was measured in hours instead of days.
I also wonder if the full day of environmental protections for each item level is a bit too generous... I feel like vacuums and hostile environments would be more dramatic if your oxygen supply was measured in hours instead of days.
I agree. "we are trapped here and need to find oxygin supply" is a staple of the genre. Same goes with "this planet has too much heat/radiation/cold in the outside, we need to find shelter and move carefully". Many of those examples are harder to pull if armors last for days.
I also wonder if the full day of environmental protections for each item level is a bit too generous... I feel like vacuums and hostile environments would be more dramatic if your oxygen supply was measured in hours instead of days.I agree. "we are trapped here and need to find oxygin supply" is a staple of the genre. Same goes with "this planet has too much heat/radiation/cold in the outside, we need to find shelter and move carefully". Many of those examples are harder to pull if armors last for days.
they're even harder if your armor DOESN"T last for days
How so? Imagine if you could last a week in Mass Effect Andromeda cold planet, or the hot planet under the sun, or the radiation planet.
The effect of those planets would be diminished, because you don't have to worry about it in most dituations/missions. The only way to make them matter is if the mission is a week long journey through the jungle, like in this AP.
How so?
Well if you run out of oxygen in 4 hours your shelter problems are going to be sort of irrelevant.
Alright. I know that I said before I wasn't going to respond to this thread, but I got to thinking.
I played the moldstorm by RAW. Whether or not the party helped the Lashunta, or how long it took to help the Lashunta, is irrelevant to whether my party would have been affected by the moldstorm, which is what ultimately killed one of my players.
Why?
Because the moldstorm happens on the 7th day of travel, according to the book. Also, on page 15, it states that 12 hours of every day the players have to use their environmental protection to protect against the crazy jungle heat.
None of my players had 4th-level armor, which is what would have been necessary to still have protection on day 7. 3rd-level armor runs dry at the end of day 6. So even in a best-case scenario, where my players had decided to not help the lashunta, they still would not have had environmental protection when the moldstorm hit.
If I have been offensive to anyone during this conversation, I apologize, I really do. That was not my intent.
But yes, diseases in Starfinder are deadly. I lost a player to one in book 2, and helping the lashunta prior to that, and whether I made a ruling that slowed down the party, had no bearing on whether or not that player would have been affected by the moldstorm, which is what killed him.
I think the key for the long overland trip is to not run your environmental controls 24/7. You run them during the worst heat of the day turn it off at night so you save endurance time to flip it back on incase you get caught out in a mold storm. Having some penalties due to the temp is less of an issue than what happens if you get caught by a mold storm without your suites environmental protections.
How so?Well if you run out of oxygen in 4 hours your shelter problems are going to be sort of irrelevant.
But running out of oxygen is one thing, and being inmune to all kind of enviromental stuff is a different one. In the mentioned Mass Effect Andromeda example, you can move around certain planets for hours, and you still can breathe. But if you stand in the outside for a while, you freeze, or get radiation, or too much heat and your armor fails. This allow to build encounters in said planets where enviroment is part of the adventure, and force players to be cautious about them. You can use resources to amplify your armor and vehicle ability to survive in hazardous enviroments, or you can just choose to be careful with the exposure time, trying to find good paths and places to shelter (the equivalent of survival, I guess). While still being able to breath for more time than you will need, ever.
Several kind of enviromental hazards found in the first AP are just useless, because the enviromental protection from the armor (or Life Bubble spell) bypass them. It's sort of a missed opportunity to make adventuring not only about combat, but about exploration itself, in my opinion.
This is a great discussion on diseases. I'm running some players through Dead Suns and they have just encountered the Akata larvae. I'm considering a house rule that if a disease track has a check once per day, that any additional checks due to advanced medical care are free from the risk of moving you backward if you fail a saving roll. Then it's just the first roll of the day that can make you worse if you fail your save. At least in the case where they have the option of leaving the situation an going to a high-tech hospital, they'll have a much better chance of survival.
To amend my last reply, I wasn't remembering the medical care mods that affect the disease track correctly. Good medical should give you a bonus on your fortitude save, but not increase the frequency of those saves. (i.e. ignore my last post)
I would say that if the disease track omits the latent stage (as in Void Death), the upside of that is that you can get to cured sooner if you make your consecutive saving rolls to improve your condition from "weakened."
What's the problem about Void Death? As far as i read it, it only causes a problem when an infected character dies. But it does not make you die any faster. 2d4 hours after you died (in most cases by a natural death by age, because a lot of gaming groups don't let their characters die in combat, only as a punishment for acting stupid..) a void zombie rises from the body.
Anything I missed? The Akatas infected every party member, but I don't see why this should cause any problem at all, until anyone dies. And even then, because they know they are infected, ther is plenty of time to airlock the infected dead character.
Void Parasites
Type disease (injury); Save Fortitude DC 10; Track physical (special); Frequency 1/day; Cure 2 saves
Track physical; Frequency 1/day
Effect No latent/carrier state; an infected creature that dies
rises as a void zombie (see page 61) 2d4 hours later.
Cure 2 consecutive s
Physical Disease Track
Healthy—Latent—Weakened—Impaired—Debilitated—Bedridden—Comatose—Dead
Latent The victim has contracted a disease. She suffers no ill effects yet, but if the disease is contagious, she can pass it on. (void death skips this part)
Weakened The victim is sickened and fatigued.
sickened: You take a –2 penalty to ability checks, attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, and skill checks. (this includes that saving throw vs the void death by the way)
You cannot run or charge; you take a –1 penalty to AC, attack rolls, melee damage rolls, Reflex saves, initiative checks, and Str– and Dex-based skill and ability checks; and you reduce your encumbered limit by 1 bulk.
So you functionally need two dc 12 fort saves in a row to shake it.
What's the problem about Void Death? As far as i read it, it only causes a problem when an infected character dies. But it does not make you die any faster. 2d4 hours after you died (in most cases by a natural death by age, because a lot of gaming groups don't let their characters die in combat, only as a punishment for acting stupid..) a void zombie rises from the body.
Anything I missed? The Akatas infected every party member, but I don't see why this should cause any problem at all, until anyone dies. And even then, because they know they are infected, ther is plenty of time to airlock the infected dead character.
In addition to the comment above, no latent/carrier state also means that if you fail your first save against Void Death you are immediately Weakened, so your character is both sickened (-2 to pretty much everything) and fatigued (an additional -1 to lots of stuff, including AC). It's a brutal debuff.
One additional failed save moves you down the track (impaired is horrible, debilitated is worse), but you need two successful saves to move back one step on the track to better health.
So every member of your party should have been at a -3 to attack, -1 to AC, and -2 to weapon damage for a minimum of two days after being infected. If they didn't make both of their subsequent saves they get worse and are essentially combat ineffective.
More generally, read the rules on afflictions beginning on page 414 of the core rulebook.
What's the problem about Void Death?
Mostly the lack of a "latent" state, and the huge offering of creatures capable of transmiting it with every attack they make.
Also the cumulative penalties to almost all rolls significant in combat, and the huge amount of time it takes to get rid of the disease if you fail the first roll.
And that if you fail the second roll, you're pretty much out of combat, unless you count a single move action at half speed per turn still contributing to combat.
That's all I can think of.
But it does not make you die any faster.
Actually, it can kill you in a minimum of six days.
xD
totally forgot the disease track.. Thanks ^^
Ok, I think I will just remove the part "no latent/carrier" and go on with the disease track. They are still on day 1, so no big problem for me..
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I find the disease tracks complex to track. I created some disease track reference sheets.
If you see any errors or have suggestions, feel free to reply here or share back your corrected copy.
Google docs Affliction tracks
You can give a printed sheet to the players if you want them to do their own tracking. For keeping track I recommend taking a slice of sticky note with the characters name and sticking it in the column representing their state. For diseases that need 2 saves, I put the characters name in the bottom of the column. When they save, they move to the top of the column, or to the bottom of the next improved column if they are already at the top of a column. If they fail a save, move their name to the bottom of the next worse column.
Google docs Affliction tracks
You can give a printed sheet to the players if you want them to do their own tracking. For keeping track I recommend taking a slice of sticky note with the characters name and sticking it in the column representing their state. For diseases that need 2 saves, I put the characters name in the bottom of the column. When they save, they move to the top of the column, or to the bottom of the next improved column if they are already at the top of a column. If they fail a save, move their name to the bottom of the next worse column.
That's a great idea! I have a group about to start Dead Suns and this sounds quite helpful. Thanks for sharing your work.
That's a great idea! I have a group about to start Dead Suns and this sounds quite helpful. Thanks for sharing your work.
I'm happy if people can make use of it. For me, anything that helps me spend less time flipping through the rules during the game is good--I don't remember all the details off the top of my head. Our group is picking up a player, so keeping things moving is important.
I'm lucky to have a good group of players that help me out with rules. I'm going to start having them track their own diseases so they have a better idea of what's going on, and they'll enjoy doing this part. We're all very new to Starfinder.
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Adjust the diseases in book 1 to have a latent state, the truly deadly part is that they start already down the death spiral disease progression track. Sprinkle medpatches and other mundane ways of treating disease as loot. In worst case, a visit to a hospital, or scraping together their money to afford a casting of remove affliction may be in order. If they use a significant portion of their wealth to do so, remember to give out just a little bit more treasure to compensate later on.
Because the moldstorm happens on the 7th day of travel, according to the book. Also, on page 15, it states that 12 hours of every day the players have to use their environmental protection to protect against the crazy jungle heat.None of my players had 4th-level armor, which is what would have been necessary to still have protection on day 7. 3rd-level armor runs dry at the end of day 6. So even in a best-case scenario, where my players had decided to not help the lashunta, they still would not have had environmental protection when the moldstorm hit.
From both of the podcasts I've listened to that have gone through that section, ** spoiler omitted **
I'm not saying that you all did anything wrong; it's just a brutal adventure. You'd think that the first AP for Starfinder would throw some softballs, but it really doesn't. Those podcasts I referenced have players that are experienced veterans with a lot of meta knowledge of how these things work, so one can't expect players with less genre savviness to think of the same sorts of things that they plan for.
Perhaps we didn't play it strictly by the rules, but my group ruled that you could replace the "batteries" for the environmental protections on the suit. Seriously you can recharge them, so why wouldn't you be able to replace a battery for them. So everybody just bought some extra batteries to make sure they had enough environmental protections for the trip.
I guess if you didn't want to skirt the rules you could have more rules compliance buy purchasing other items to accomplish the same goal, but for us the answer was simply to say "Yeah, the super important environmental protection part of armor can be kept running by swapping batteries".
Perhaps we didn't play it strictly by the rules, but my group ruled that you could replace the "batteries" for the environmental protections on the suit. Seriously you can recharge them, so why wouldn't you be able to replace a battery for them. So everybody just bought some extra batteries to make sure they had enough environmental protections for the trip.
I guess if you didn't want to skirt the rules you could have more rules compliance buy purchasing other items to accomplish the same goal, but for us the answer was simply to say "Yeah, the super important environmental protection part of armor can be kept running by swapping batteries".
I think the issue is that it's unlikely that "batteries" are what is being recharged where environmental protections are concerned. You also "recharge" things like air conditioning systems and air tanks - I have always assumed some sort of fluids, gases, and/or nutrient/bacteria/nanomachine stocks are involved in recharging environmental systems on suits, not providing electrical power.
The description in the armor section to me reads a lot like it's referring to recharging batteries:
The duration of a suit’s environmental protections does not need to be expended all at once, but it must be expended in 1-hour increments. Recharging this duration requires access to a functioning starship or an environment recharging station (publicly available in most technologically advanced or average settlements) and takes 1 minute per day recharged. Most of the recharging stations that replenish devices, such as batteries and power cells, also recharge suits is typically free of price. All other functions on a suit of armor with no duration remaining still work normally.
If you actually had to recharge breathable gasses and they aren't simply generated by sufficiently advanced technology on the fly...well there's just no way to hold that much gas on the suits. Gas can only get so compressed, and even then look at scuba tanks and how much room they take up.
I've always imagined that the environmental protection systems are advanced nearly magical technology that make suitable atmosphere out of energy, ya know E=mc^2 (although that's not meant to be entirely serious).
The description in the armor section to me reads a lot like it's referring to recharging batteries:
The duration of a suit’s environmental protections does not need to be expended all at once, but it must be expended in 1-hour increments. Recharging this duration requires access to a functioning starship or an environment recharging station (publicly available in most technologically advanced or average settlements) and takes 1 minute per day recharged. Most of the recharging stations that replenish devices, such as batteries and power cells, also recharge suits is typically free of price. All other functions on a suit of armor with no duration remaining still work normally.If you actually had to recharge breathable gasses and they aren't simply generated by sufficiently advanced technology on the fly...well there's just no way to hold that much gas on the suits. Gas can only get so compressed, and even then look at scuba tanks and how much room they take up.
I've always imagined that the environmental protection systems are advanced nearly magical technology that make suitable atmosphere out of energy, ya know E=mc^2 (although that's not meant to be entirely serious).
I assume the have highly efficient but not perfect recyclers that have to be recharged with certain chemicals periodically.
Different strokes for different folks I guess.
The game doesn't provide much detail on the nature of what "recharging" the environmental protections of armor entails.
Honestly, in my mind I was imagining the use of a catalyst (a reusable compound which increases the reaction rate of chemical processes) with some energy input which would break CO/CO2 into O2 and trap the carbon in a filter.
What about powered armor? Are you adding in a second battery of some sort for just the environmental seals, or would you consider the battery that runs the suit to be the same thing that runs everything?
Probably separate....but it's a weird case. Either the battery usage rate is higher for the power armor 1 charge per minute, or the same at 1 charge per hour. But power armor batteries have shorter capacity duration than the number of days of use per level that armor otherwise has.
I've been perusing the Dead Suns forums and I'm concerned with a couple of things being too difficult for my group, one of them being the deadliness of the diseases. I'm trying to think of ways to sort of "soften" these up so they don't outright kill my not optimized party of mostly newbies. Has anybody else done something like this? Does anybody have any suggestions on how I can make these things a bit less deadly while still providing a challenge to kind of "teach" the new players how RPGs work in general and how Starfinder works in specific?
The disease in this book is actually quite entertaining and can be used to bring the party together, when every works alongside trying to protect a diseased companion.
Instead of messing with the mechanics, I'd at most nerf the Akatas to have only one dose of disease per day, so they can infect only the first person they bite.
I've been perusing the Dead Suns forums and I'm concerned with a couple of things being too difficult for my group, one of them being the deadliness of the diseases. I'm trying to think of ways to sort of "soften" these up so they don't outright kill my not optimized party of mostly newbies. Has anybody else done something like this? Does anybody have any suggestions on how I can make these things a bit less deadly while still providing a challenge to kind of "teach" the new players how RPGs work in general and how Starfinder works in specific?The disease in this book is actually quite entertaining and can be used to bring the party together, when every works alongside trying to protect a diseased companion.
Instead of messing with the mechanics, I'd at most nerf the Akatas to have only one dose of disease per day, so they can infect only the first person they bite.
Since some of the diseases in Dead Suns happen in areas where hospital class medical care is not readily available, it would be reasonable to encourage new players to have ranks in medicine or a mystic healer. If they don't have to money to have medical gear, some of the loot they find can include a box of medpatches (normally 50CR each, Core rules pg.220). Medpatches will allow characters untrained in medicine to assist in treating disease (+10). A successful treat disease (Core rules pg.143) gives the patient a +4 on their next save. Note that they will still suffer if they have a string of bad rolls...