how not to value your volunteers


Pathfinder Society

Grand Lodge 1/5

It’s been three weeks since I spoke to the regional organizer for Organized Play about my Venture Captain removing me from my position as Venture Agent, under false pretenses, after months of gaslighting and emotional manipulation. He asked me earlier this week to schedule a call to inform me of his decision, and last night we spoke.

He told me that he had found in his investigation that the Venture Captain had wrongly removed me, and that his recommendation was that I be reinstated. The VC got a stern talking to, but no other sanctions. I was asked to decide right there and then whether I was willing to work with this person, and I demurred.

As I expected, the purpose of the call was less about the decision and more an opportunity for the regional organizer to posture. During this almost-monologue, the regional organizer took the opportunity to tell me that he didn’t care about my feelings, or the VC’s. He just wanted us to work together for the sake of PFS.

Oh, and to keep this between all of us, of course, “like adults.” No need to talk about this publicly. Which is always exactly what you want to say to someone when you’ve just told them that you don’t care about their feelings.

Now, imagine you got fired, for reasons that you knew were false. Then the company offered to rehire you, so long as you were willing to work with the person who lied about you and got you fired. I’d have a hard time accepting that situation, and that’s a job. That pays money.

This is a game. It’s a game I had a lot of fun playing, but at the end of the day, it’s a game. I’m not going to sacrifice my sanity or self-respect for a game. And I’m certainly not going to keep giving my time and energy to an organization that has just told me, effectively, that it doesn’t give a s+$~ about my feelings.

Stirring this cauldron is the last time and effort I’m going to give to Organized Play. And I’m sure as hell not going to spend any more money on Paizo products.

5/5 5/5

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I'm sorry to hear about your bad experience. I agree that I would have a hard time working with someone in the circumstances you describe. The recommendation in these cases is to escalate your concerns about your RVC to Tonya, but my personal experience tells me that you will likely have little success in getting the RVC's decision overturned at that level. Tonya has invested considerable authority in her RVCs to allow her more time to act as a Pathfinder ambassador at conventions and it appears to me that she is not questioning their decisions. While I think that it is good for Paizo to do event outreach, I think that maybe recent experience tells us that perhaps there should be two positions - one for outreach ambassador and one for Organized Play oversight because it seems that one of these jobs has been falling by the wayside of late.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

I am not going to attempt any form of justification for any actions involved, partly because I don't want to promote this type of activity, but mostly because I am not going to weigh in on a one sided argument, which is exactly what this post is. What I will say is that the fact that this is a volunteer job and not a paid one is very much part of the problem. Unlike a paid job, there are not a hoard of job seekers who will happily replace anyone Paizo dismisses from the position. Volunteers, especially those with actual authority, are hard to come by and because of that, I can sympathize with the RVC's desire to keep you both on board and hope you can work together.

Sovereign Court 5/5

Bill Baldwin wrote:
[...]Volunteers, especially those with actual authority, are hard to come by and because of that, I can sympathize with the RVC's desire to keep you both on board and hope you can work together.

Honestly, I don't see how your point justifies your reasoning. If a volunteer feels threatened, disparaged, or otherwise harassed, telling them to continue working with the person who has caused this hardship is frankly unethical. Sure: Paizo has a lack of volunteers, but people are much less likely to volunteer if this is how they are treated. Furthermore, that does not justify being complicit in damaging a person's social standing and emotional well being.

Tessara Joharice - Rogue 12 wrote:

[...]I’m not going to sacrifice my sanity or self-respect for a game. And I’m certainly not going to keep giving my time and energy to an organization that has just told me, effectively, that it doesn’t give a s*!% about my feelings.

Stirring this cauldron is the last time and effort I’m going to give to Organized Play. And I’m sure as hell not going to spend any more money on Paizo products.

I can honestly say that you have my sympathy here. It sounds like you're in a bad situation, and I definitely support your decision to step back from Paizo and organized play (events in the SE region have made me contemplate doing the same, and they have not affected me directly). That said, I really do hope that Paizo will come around to solve this sort of issue. My experiences with Paizo have been predominately good, but years of running smoothly has left a lot of waste to fester.

I sincerely hope that the raft of issues coming to light at this point will catch somebody's notice.

Scarab Sages 5/5

CultClown wrote:
Bill Baldwin wrote:
[...]Volunteers, especially those with actual authority, are hard to come by and because of that, I can sympathize with the RVC's desire to keep you both on board and hope you can work together.

Honestly, I don't see how your point justifies your reasoning. If a volunteer feels threatened, disparaged, or otherwise harassed, telling them to continue working with the person who has caused this hardship is frankly unethical. Sure: Paizo has a lack of volunteers, but people are much less likely to volunteer if this is how they are treated. Furthermore, that does not justify being complicit in damaging a person's social standing and emotional well being.

Tessara Joharice - Rogue 12 wrote:

[...]I’m not going to sacrifice my sanity or self-respect for a game. And I’m certainly not going to keep giving my time and energy to an organization that has just told me, effectively, that it doesn’t give a s*!% about my feelings.

Stirring this cauldron is the last time and effort I’m going to give to Organized Play. And I’m sure as hell not going to spend any more money on Paizo products.

I can honestly say that you have my sympathy here. It sounds like you're in a bad situation, and I definitely support your decision to step back from Paizo and organized play (events in the SE region have made me contemplate doing the same, and they have not affected me directly). That said, I really do hope that Paizo will come around to solve this sort of issue. My experiences with Paizo have been predominately good, but years of running smoothly has left a lot of waste to fester.

I sincerely hope that the raft of issues coming to light at this point will catch somebody's notice.

Even if it does, we will never know.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

CultClown wrote:
Bill Baldwin wrote:
[...]Volunteers, especially those with actual authority, are hard to come by and because of that, I can sympathize with the RVC's desire to keep you both on board and hope you can work together.

Honestly, I don't see how your point justifies your reasoning. If a volunteer feels threatened, disparaged, or otherwise harassed, telling them to continue working with the person who has caused this hardship is frankly unethical. Sure: Paizo has a lack of volunteers, but people are much less likely to volunteer if this is how they are treated. Furthermore, that does not justify being complicit in damaging a person's social standing and emotional well being.

I am glad you didn't see that as a justification, as I had clearly stated I wasn't trying to justify anything. But, then again, you decided to edit that part out of your response.

What I was trying to do was explain why things in a volunteer situation don't necessarily work like they do in a normal employment position. So comparisons between the two are not 100% accurate. And just because I sympathize with a desire does not mean I agree with a decision.

Sovereign Court 5/5

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Bill Baldwin wrote:

I am glad you didn't see that as a justification, as I had clearly stated I wasn't trying to justify anything. But, then again, you decided to edit that part out of your response.

What I was trying to do was explain why things in a volunteer situation don't necessarily work like they do in a normal employment position. So comparisons between the two are not 100% accurate. And just because I sympathize with a desire does not mean I agree with a decision.

Bill,

I apologize if my use of the word justification was unclear. I was questioning your premises, because I don't think they support your conclusion. What you are in essence saying, is that a volunteer workplace should be able to treat their workers worse than a paid place of employment. You may not view it that way, but when I read your post, that's what I see.
My post is not in relation to your previous comments about this exact situation, and I agree, there are a number of unknown factors. I'm not accusing you of not taking sides here, I'm simply stating that your conclusion is faulty.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

CultClown wrote:
Bill Baldwin wrote:

I am glad you didn't see that as a justification, as I had clearly stated I wasn't trying to justify anything. But, then again, you decided to edit that part out of your response.

What I was trying to do was explain why things in a volunteer situation don't necessarily work like they do in a normal employment position. So comparisons between the two are not 100% accurate. And just because I sympathize with a desire does not mean I agree with a decision.

Bill,

I apologize if my use of the word justification was unclear. I was questioning your premises, because I don't think they support your conclusion. What you are in essence saying, is that a volunteer workplace should be able to treat their workers worse than a paid place of employment. You may not view it that way, but when I read your post, that's what I see.
My post is not in relation to your previous comments about this exact situation, and I agree, there are a number of unknown factors. I'm not accusing you of not taking sides here, I'm simply stating that your conclusion is faulty.

Ah, okay. No, I am not trying to say it is okay to treat them worse. What I am trying to say is there is a greater need to hold on to both people even when they have a problem working together and not take the easy way out by simply getting rid of one of them. Now, from appearances, this desire may have been handled poorly, but again, we are only hearing one side.

Scarab Sages 5/5

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So all we know is that the original poster felt they were unjustly treated. The RVC felt they were unjustly treated. The RVC also felt that the VC did not do something poorly enough to be fired themselves.

What this says to me, is that there was a personality conflict between the two people, and that the VC probably handled their part of it incorrectly. They were reprimanded. It doesn't make it any easier for the OP to handle working with/for that VC, and I don't blame them for quitting PFS and potentially stop buying Paizo material altogether.

But a personality conflict, at its core, while potentially toxic, does not equate to treating volunteers poorly. Because a personality conflict is a two-way street.

All this is pure speculation on way too little information.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

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Quote:
All this is pure speculation on way too little information

^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^

Lantern Lodge Customer Service & Community Manager

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This is currently being addressed through the proper channels and public speculation is not productive or appropriate for the paizo.com forums.

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