I have a player who wants to make a silver tongued character. He wants to be a bit of a skills monkey, but mainly wants to talk his way out of stuff.
In addition he does not want to be a straight caster class. He was sorcerer and is not liking it. He is only level 3 but doesnt want to go on with it. Please no "Just tell him to tough it out" responses. I have already told him how powerful, useful, full covering his spells will be come, and he doesn't care.
I am looking for suggestions
Bard is good, as is Mesmerist, though Versatile Performance gives the Bard an edge over the Mesmerist, imo. Unchained Rogue can be built to be a very charismatic class, especially with Skill Unlocks.
You could just tell him, to be any class that he wants. Just don't read optimization guides and invest in his Charisma instead of dumping it while building his character.
Grab a few social traits at character creation, and then just invest ranks in the appropriate skills.
There probably is no better class than the bard, but the Inquisitor, alchemist, investigator, and rogue classes all can be quite adept skill monkeys. None are full casters either.
Rogue is nice if he wants to avoid spellcasting this time. Interesting archetypes might be:
Consigliere (three different boosts to Diplomacy at the first three levels)
Discretion Specialist (straightforward +1/2 level)
Kitsune Trickster (also add Int modifier)
Phantom Thief (+1/2 level, Skill Focus as rogue talent)
Rake (+1/3 level)
Is he actually ok with the fact that some foes can't be talked with? Mindless undead, oozes and vermin comes to my mind. If not, he might want to look into combat options for Bluff etc..
Mesmerists are probably better at the straight bluff, and you can pull off a nice cunning caster build by level 3 (so he can be 'persuasive' without anyone noticing anything is wrong).
Besides that, you can use painful stare to do a melee build (manifold stare can allow for enough uses of the ability to make up for a lack of power attack or damage buffers), or just a general debuff build with the various stare feats. That should be enough to allow him to feel useful 'now'.
What's the rest of the party composed of?
Silksworn Occultist can get right out of hand on cha-based skills with very little investment, especially once you've gotten silksworn eloquence at level 8.
Rest of the party :
Two Handed Fighter
War Priest
Duettist Bard
Life Mystery Oracle
Divine Marksman Ranger
Appreciate the ideas so far everyone. Gives me some food for thought.
Bard, hands down.
Edit: You already have a Bard.... hmm.. the next best silver-tongued class after Bard would probably be a Spy .
Rest of the party :
Two Handed Fighter
War Priest
Duettist Bard
Life Mystery Oracle
Divine Marksman RangerAppreciate the ideas so far everyone. Gives me some food for thought.
1) The party already has a bard. (Whether the bard is a "face", we don't know.)
2) Bards cast spells like sorcerers (and your player emphatically does not want to play a sorc).Right now I see two hard-core martials (assuming the warpriest is a melee), one 9-levels casters, one archer, and three guys that can heal.
I think the party could use a snoop, and a cheeky halfling unchained rogue is just the type to BS his way out of problem.
STR- 10
DEX+ 17 (halfling, 15,14,12,12,12,12 20pt array)
CON: 12
INT: 12 (...or 15,14,14,14,12,07 array if you dump Int)
WIS: 12
CHA+ 16
Racial trait: Fleet of Foot
Traits: Affable, Reactionary
01. uRogue [Weapon Finesse], Improved Initiative
Since Cha is high, dipping Swashbuckler and/or Paladin are possibilities.
When you say silver tongued, how inherent is a charisma focus?
I ask because the Empiricist Investigator archetype allows (with some good trait choices, if they're allowed) to make a character that comfortably holds all social situations with INT.
On top of that, it has a nice capacity to build towards support or self-buffing.
Alternatively; Skald sits alongside Bard very comfortably to boost martial combatants.
If we're talking avoiding the casting system completely;
Scaled Fist (Monk Archetype Cha instead of Wis for everything)
Various flavours of Cavalier
Swashbuckler too
Rogue is such a free space that it can be used to push for good face skills with good combat competence (Unchained anyway).
Side Note:
Appreciably, since you're the GM, OP, the game can be tailored as needed but envisaging forming a party against a blank slate; the group does not have trap-related stuff as far as I can see.
If this player is a type wants to have a thing that's theirs at all, I'd present Rogue and Empiricist upfront in light of that. Since the response to make that shine is subsequently easy; put in traps.
As several other people have suggested the bard is what he is looking for. While you have a bard in the group already there are plenty of archetypes for the bard that changes the class enough that the characters are different enough to avoid conflict. The archaeologist bard trades away all performance for a luck bonus. In fact it trades away any reason to take any performance skills at all. As a spontaneous caster it will be easy to minimize duplicate spells so even there spell casting will be completely different. Typically the archaeologist focuses on spells that boost his ability to steal instead of spells that directly affect others.
Once again appreciate everyone's input.
Answering a couple of questions. I am not the Main GM, Myself and the main swap out so that each gets a chance to play a character through adventures without knowing everything.
Yes the Warpriest is mostly martial. It's actually my character for when the other GM runs things, and largely a meat shield when I run things.
Charisma is the guys highest stat, though his other mental stats are nothing to sneeze at. In general his physical stats are all just above 10. That said Charisma is what he seems most concerned with.
Charisma is the guys highest stat, though his other mental stats are nothing to sneeze at. In general his physical stats are all just above 10.Point-buy or rolled? If point-bought, I'd encourage him not to go overboard trying for a starting 18/19/20 charisma at the expense of dexterity and/or con. A 15 racially-boosted to 17 at 1st is all you need to be a 20 at 4th with a bump and a headband.
That said Charisma is what he seems most concerned with.
uRogue(4)/PaladinX or Paladin2/uRogueX would be very synergistic.
01 paladin1 Improved Initiative
02 rogue1 [SA1d6][weapon finesse]
03 paladin2 [divine grace], Accomplished Sneak Attacker [SA2d6]
04 rogue2 [evasion][Talent:Combat Trick:Two Weapon Fighting]
05 rogue3 [SA3d6][finesse: wakizashi*], FEAT(g)
-- You'll have the gift of gab, and the chops to fall back on when everything goes pear-shaped.
(*Own an opalescent white pyramid ioun stone.)
ALL. BARD. GROUP.
YAAAAAAAAAAAS
Dragadin. A Paladin 2 Bloodrager 4 can dragon disciple with great effect. His Cha would be maxed and he could just be a martial when he fails diplo or bluff.
A swashigator (swashbuckler 1 / investigator X) works well; inspiration makes their skills good (including social ones), the parry keeps them alive in melee, extracts can buff or heal them when necessary and when studied combat kicks in it helps with melee offence.
It was a very generous roll system implemented by the other GM. After racial bonuses This player ended up with
Str 11
Dex 12
Con 12
Int 16
Wis 16
Chr 20
Dragadin and Swashigator... I will be laughing these names all day, but I am putting them on the list as potentials.
It was a very generous roll system implemented by the other GM. After racial bonuses This player ended up with
Str 11
Dex 12
Con 12
Int 16
Wis 16
Chr 20Dragadin and Swashigator... I will be laughing these names all day, but I am putting them on the list as potentials.
Yeesh, gonna be tough to make anything that isn't a focused caster out of that. So much in the mental and so little in the physical stats is very limiting despite the good numbers overall. Can he swap anything around?
Yeesh, gonna be tough to make anything that isn't a focused caster out of that. So much in the mental and so little in the physical stats is very limiting despite the good numbers overall. Can he swap anything around?Str 11
Dex 12>14
Con 12
Int 16
Wis 16
Chr 20
...at first glance, ouch. But it can be made to work (assuming the numbers are fixed in those stats), and not too shabbily at all:
(Note: I make no claim that the build below is the ideal build for this set of stats (although it certainly is...playful, if embraced as a martial-branching-out philosophy and with a toddler's delight at the plethora of swift-action choices) -- I simply chucked in everything I could think of to squeeze the crap out of that fat starting charisma bonus seventytwelve different ways, and will let the OP decide which way they'd rather go. Straight bard, warpriest, or sorcerer would be the strongest in the long game (although I'm inclined to dip Swashbuckler at 1st just to keep muh butt alive). The warpriest can at least strap into plate armor care-free, whereas the arcane casters have to worry about AC and HP a lot more that usual.)
Alignment: Chaotic-Good
Racial alternative trait: Dual Talent: also raise Dexterity (to 14)
Character traits: Fate’s Favored (faith), Magical Knack [warpriest] (magic)
01 Swashbuckler1 [Flying Blade][Subtle Throw][Panache], Point-Blank Shot, Flagbearer
02 Warpriest1 [WF:Starknife:d8][Luck][Travel/Divine Fighting Technique (Desna's Shooting Star)]
03 Bard1 [Archaeologist][Luck uses:9], Quick Draw
04 Warpriest2[Fervor], DEX>15
05 Investigator1 [Sleuth][Sleuth’s Luck], Rapid Shot, (buy Blinkback Belt)
06 Swashbuckler2 [Charmed Life] (buy headband if not already)
07 Warpriest3 [Far Shot], Improved Initiative or Lingering Song
08 Warpriest4 [Sacred +1], DEX>16
09 Warpriest5 [Fervor:2d6][Starknife:2d6], FEAT(g) or Additional Traits [Armor Expert (combat), Affable (social)]
(*Eschew melee if intending to wield a Banner of the Ancient Kings, which is recommended given the wimpy physical attributes; can always take TWF later when swallow-whole monsters are a constant menace and you may need to ginsu your way out with a pair of light weapons.)
Tactics at mid-level: chuck starknives that hit like anvils from the back ranks while holding that BotAK for stupid sick bonuses once you've stacked & racked Luck, Morale, and Competence bonuses.
Skills: You'll have a boat-ton. Use Magic Device is something you'll keep maxed, because your various spell lists cover a lot of ground.
Mid-level equipment (besides starknives): Crusading mithral breastplate, Banner of the Ancient Kings, Carpet of Flying (sit on a warhorse at low-level; it'll let you keep away from melee easier), Deep Red Sphere ioun stone, cracked pale green ioun (both types),
Available prestige class: Sentinel (Inner Sea Gods, Desna). --Should you take it? Probably not, unless you don't care at all about spellcasting and want to dip/glom onto a Sacred bonus to attack/damage too just for bragging rights.
with human, taking Dual Talent on a Silksworn Occultist with Transmutation for +Dex could allow for a passable finesse build. Spear Dancer or Spear Dancing Style (they don't work together sadly) would come online at level 5. Until then, if he had Conjuration or Necromancy, he could summon a meatshield to fight. Sort of pure caster, but also not. It's complicated.
EDIT: Though something else for level 5, I'm sure Slashing Grace has something in the simple weapons category it applies to.
Though you said after racial bonuses... If their chosen race is something else, that might affect the viability poorly.
It was a very generous roll system implemented by the other GM. After racial bonuses This player ended up with
Str 11
Dex 12
Con 12
Int 16
Wis 16
Chr 20Dragadin and Swashigator... I will be laughing these names all day, but I am putting them on the list as potentials.
With these stats the player should consider worshiping Desna and taking her fighting style feat. Desna's Shooting Star allows the player to use cha instead of dex or str when fighting with a starknife. The only thing stopping him frow twf is his low dex as he doesn't meet the pre reqs. He could instead opt to fight with a large starknife and do a d6 instead of d4. He could eventually get an effortless lace to mitigate the large size penalty.
Artful dodge feat lets you use INT instead of DEX for prerequisites.
Artful dodge feat lets you use INT instead of DEX for prerequisites.
Does the Virtuous Bravo archetype work with Artful Dodge? I've always wondered how powerful this combo would be. If so then he'd be able to use cha to qualify and potentially get feats that require even higher dex.
With these stats the player should consider worshiping Desna and taking her fighting style feat. Desna's Shooting Star allows the player to use cha instead of dex or str when fighting with a starknife. The only thing stopping him frow twf is his low dex as he doesn't meet the pre reqs. He could instead opt to fight with a large starknife and do a d6 instead of d4. He could eventually get an effortless lace to mitigate the large size penalty.
Yup: zipping 'em from the bank ranks + Flagbearer party-buff is, I think, the winning play here. (With those stats, I'd avoid of melee even though you can otherwise design a TWF bloodbath-machine around DSS.)
The build I submitted above is only BAB3 at 6th, but is +5/+5 (Cha bonus) with +3/+3 Luck and sharing +1/+1 morale and +1/+1 competence (add +2/+2 in the event of already acquiring Banner of the Ancient Kings) with the party by the second round after getting Fervor and Inspire Courage. +11/+11 (d8+10) is nothing to sneeze at (outdoing most archers still awaiting Manyshot at 7th), and a lot better than most flagbearers are doing in combat. With Panache, Sleuth's Luck, and Charmed Life, he has a gigantic pool of daily uses bolstering various abilities and defenses, and is both Face and "utility guy" OOC.