What do we know about the four essences?


Prerelease Discussion

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Mental/Vital - This definitely feels like an area where Bards will have influence, nudging base desires or unleashing raw emotions. However, another form of Power comes to mind: Psionics, Mind over matter is the mantra, and while that would suggest a link to material, it should be noted that it references personal 'matter' which is more the Vital essence.

I think Gavmania is probably spot on that the Material/Spiritual will probably be linked with the planar entities. While the leaning is towards Demonology, I have other suggestions:
Words of Power: The tools used to shape the world.
Pact Magic: Selling your soul, material contract.
Vestiges: alla 3.5 Tomb of Magic. Quasi-real entities you draw power from.


Gavmania wrote:
Gavmania wrote:

Mental has thought and emotion.

Considering the Material/Spiritual question, I asked myself what needs the spark of inspiration and affects the material world? The obvious answer to me is Technology.

Who was the idiot that suggested Material/spiritual is technology! Of course it's not. Spiritual is all about alignments, and material is about the shape of things, what's representative of alignment and has a shape? Demon's/devils/angels, etc. (including the denizens of Mechanus, ironically) and also deities. It is the source of domain magic.

Now I've got this vision of an AP in which you have to travel through portals to stop an invasion by Cyberdaemons . . . .


Felinus wrote:

I think Gavmania is probably spot on that the Material/Spiritual will probably be linked with the planar entities. While the leaning is towards Demonology, I have other suggestions:

Words of Power: The tools used to shape the world.
Pact Magic: Selling your soul, material contract.
Vestiges: alla 3.5 Tomb of Magic. Quasi-real entities you draw power from.

I think vestiges might fit thematically as associated with no essences, though I suppose I can see them as Material/Spiritual or pure Spiritual.

My mind has changed on the Bards, in part because we now know what spell lists are in the book.


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Makrs comments from page one of this thread are what makes me thing Occult will be spiritual/mental.

Mark Seifter wrote:
Tholomyes wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:

They are primarily lore and don't appear in the playtest rulebook, even though they shape magic from behind the scenes.

Material/Physical Essence is on the Material Plane and much derives from the Elemental Planes.
Mental Essence is associated with the Astral Plane
Vital Essence is associated with the Positive Energy Plane and the First World
Spiritual Essence is associated with the Ethereal Plane and the Outer Sphere, like Heaven and Hell and such.

Incidentally, the druid's primal magical tradition, previewed at the Paizocon banquet, draws upon Material and Vital Essences. This means that primal magic is rooted in an instinctual connection and faith in the world around, a faith in the cycle of day and night, the cycle of the seasons, and the natural selection of predator and prey. It also means druids get great Material Essence attack spells and Vital essence healing spells, which is a potent and versatile combination.

Since Arcane is Material/Mental, and Divine is Vital/Spiritual, and Druid is Material/Vital, that makes me suspect that Occult is Mental/Spiritual, which seems accurate.

Certainly the Astral Plane and Ethereal Plane were major focuses for the various occult classes. Magic that blends mental and spiritual, whatever it might be, would have spells focusing on thought and emotion, as well as those that influence the mind and elevate the soul, and it might involve an eclectic study of disparate esoterica rather than more scientific study of the physical world and the schools of magic common to a member of an arcane tradition like a wizard.

A potential problem with including spell lists made from the other two possible combinations of essences (whatever they may be) down the road is that they won't have a skill associated with them or they will come with a new skill being introduced. It's possible, 3.5 did this with psionics, but I don't think it would be a smooth introduction to the game. That said maybe if it was introduced with the rare tag that could work.


Yeah, the skill blank is why I think we won't eventually see Mental/Vital or Physical/Spiritual lists, although Mental/Vital would have matched up with the Witch or Bard ok, and Physical/Spiritual is in line with the Occultist list in PF1.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

I like playing with the thematic links of the four elements and how those intersect with concepts like the magical essences.

My mapping is Fire-Vital, Earth-Material, Water-Spiritual, Air-Mental.

For example, haste is likely a Mental spell and would show up on an Air domain.

Alternatively, each element could be associated with a particular spell list. Fire-divine, Earth-primal, Water-occult, Air-arcane.

Which do you like better? Or would anyone pair them differently?

Designer

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KingOfAnything wrote:

I like playing with the thematic links of the four elements and how those intersect with concepts like the magical essences.

My mapping is Fire-Vital, Earth-Material, Water-Spiritual, Air-Mental.

For example, haste is likely a Mental spell and would show up on an Air domain.

Alternatively, each element could be associated with a particular spell list. Fire-divine, Earth-primal, Water-occult, Air-arcane.

Which do you like better? Or would anyone pair them differently?

Hmm, it's tough because in a literal mapping of essences, spiritual seems like it would be Aether and then all the others are building blocks of physical, with Void/Wood as vital.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:

I like playing with the thematic links of the four elements and how those intersect with concepts like the magical essences.

My mapping is Fire-Vital, Earth-Material, Water-Spiritual, Air-Mental.

For example, haste is likely a Mental spell and would show up on an Air domain.

Alternatively, each element could be associated with a particular spell list. Fire-divine, Earth-primal, Water-occult, Air-arcane.

Which do you like better? Or would anyone pair them differently?

Hmm, it's tough because in a literal mapping of essences, spiritual seems like it would be Aether and then all the others are building blocks of physical, with Void/Wood as vital.

I really like creating themes with just the four classical western elements.

My homebrew setting includes a lot of metaphorical ties to elements in culture and magic, with areas of overlapping influence. Keeping everything to Material spell lists in the setting probably makes sense, but cuts out two whole lists. I'm interested in pulling in some thematically appropriate divine/occult spells.

Elemental Culture Aside:

One of the foundations of the setting is the different virtues the elementally aligned cultures value most highly.

Fire culture celebrates Love and Joy
Earth culture prefers Peace and Patience
Water culture values Kindness and Generosity; and
Air culture appreciates Gentleness, Open-Mindedness, and Self-Control


Physical/spiritual seems like it should be where the list of ki powers should come from.

Designer

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KingOfAnything wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
KingOfAnything wrote:

I like playing with the thematic links of the four elements and how those intersect with concepts like the magical essences.

My mapping is Fire-Vital, Earth-Material, Water-Spiritual, Air-Mental.

For example, haste is likely a Mental spell and would show up on an Air domain.

Alternatively, each element could be associated with a particular spell list. Fire-divine, Earth-primal, Water-occult, Air-arcane.

Which do you like better? Or would anyone pair them differently?

Hmm, it's tough because in a literal mapping of essences, spiritual seems like it would be Aether and then all the others are building blocks of physical, with Void/Wood as vital.

I really like creating themes with just the four classical western elements.

My homebrew setting includes a lot of metaphorical ties to elements in culture and magic, with areas of overlapping influence. Keeping everything to Material spell lists in the setting probably makes sense, but cuts out two whole lists. I'm interested in pulling in some thematically appropriate divine/occult spells.

** spoiler omitted **

Here's some elemental personality stuff I mocked up based on some real world ancient beliefs on elements and used as part of my "Personality Quiz" to determine character choice in my First World Problems convention game:

Elements:
Aether: People with this element tend to seek consensus and strive to work together with others, holding groups together through quiet hard work. Aether-minded people seek to find their place and fit into that place, as that makes them feel more comfortable than the uncertainty of striking off into the unknown.
Air: People with this element tend to be lively, sociable, carefree, talkative, and pleasure-seeking. They may be warm-hearted and optimistic. They can make new friends easily, be imaginative and artistic, and often have many ideas.
Earth: People with this element may appear serious, introverted, cautious or even suspicious. They can become preoccupied with the tragedy and cruelty in the world and are susceptible to depression and moodiness. They may be focused and conscientious. They often prefer to do things themselves, both to meet their own standards and because they are not inherently sociable.
Fire: People with this element tend to be egocentric and extroverted. They may be excitable, impulsive, and restless, with reserves of aggression, energy, and/or passion, and try to instill that in others.
Water: People with this element may be inward and private, thoughtful, reasonable, calm, patient, caring, and tolerant. They tend to have a rich inner life, seek a quiet, peaceful atmosphere, and be content with themselves. They tend to be steadfast, consistent in their habits, and thus steady and faithful friends.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Those descriptions definitely resonate with my own, Mark.

I use a little bit of these elemental personality traits for my PFS Druid(Elemental Ally). He's a merchant facilitating trade between elemental planes. For his character, I wrote up some different cultural trade practices associated with each element.

For example, gift-giving as an essential element for making significant deals in Water culture (culturally related to tides, what goes out comes back in). Whereas, everything is an exchange or has a price in Fire culture, and a gift would be an obligation at best, an insult at worst (related to fire requiring fuel to burn, you can't warm yourself at a fire without burning some wood).

Liberty's Edge

This should appear here too IMO :-)

Mark Seifter wrote:
Felinus wrote:
Am I wrong in guessing that spells of a single essence may exist on multiple lists, where relevant, to limit refluffing a duplication?
You are not wrong. Spells with two adjacent essences (they rarely have two opposing essences) may even be on all three lists that border either essence, depending on how they work.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

This sort of reminds me of Rolemaster's realms of power; Essence, Channeling, Mentalism. The parallel is that all casters were either pure (one Realm), hybrid (two realms), or Semi (a magical Realm combined with mundane skills).

The primary casters in PF2 are going to be what could be described as Hybrids, but there could be room for Pure casters in the future. "Semi" casters could map roughly to classes like Paladins who have supernatural powers derived from a theme of a Tradition, but not spell slots.

What do we have confirmed so far...

Ma + Me = Arcane
Sp + Vi = Divine
Me + Sp = Occult

We know we have Primal coming up, but has it been fully revealed?

Ma + Vi = Primal? Almost certainly Vital magic due to the connection with the First World.
Ma + Sp = ??? I could see Shamans here, a spiritual guide with worldly concerns.
Me + Vi = Psychic? Mind over Matter has already been mentioned in this thread. Biokinetic powers have often been a thing with Psychics.

Then we have potential Pure casters. Not as many spell options, but maybe a bit more in the way of powers?

Ma = Kineticists?
Me = Mesmerists?
Sp = Spiritualists?
Vi = __________ ?


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Mark Seifter wrote:

Here's some elemental personality stuff I mocked up based on some real world ancient beliefs on elements and used as part of my "Personality Quiz" to determine character choice in my First World Problems convention game:

** spoiler omitted **...

I was playing with the obsolete theories of the Four Humors and matching them with alignment for my alchemist character to use in roleplay. The humors all had personality and element links, it looks like that's at least part of what you based this on. Everything is wet or dry and warm or cold.

Air is wet/warm. It's linked humor is blood and personality type is Sanguine.
Water is wet/cold. Linked to phlegm and the phlegmatic personality.
Fire is dry/warm. Linked to yellow bile and choleric
Earth is dry/cold. Linked to black bile and melancholic.

I figured each alignment axis would be linked to wet or dry and warm or cold. Finding a good match was a bit tricky. Tentatively dry is evil, wet good. Cold lawful and warm chaotic.
So lawful good is Phlegmatic and therefore water, chaotic good Sanguine air, lawful evil melancholic earth and chaotic evil choleric fire.

I was never really satisfied with this though, so I shelved it. But humorism really seems like it would fit right in with a pathfinder alchemist and maybe could fit with the essences.

Designer

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Doktor Weasel wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:

Here's some elemental personality stuff I mocked up based on some real world ancient beliefs on elements and used as part of my "Personality Quiz" to determine character choice in my First World Problems convention game:

** spoiler omitted **...

I was playing with the obsolete theories of the Four Humors and matching them with alignment for my alchemist character to use in roleplay. The humors all had personality and element links, it looks like that's at least part of what you based this on. Everything is wet or dry and warm or cold.

Air is wet/warm. It's linked humor is blood and personality type is Sanguine.
Water is wet/cold. Linked to phlegm and the phlegmatic personality.
Fire is dry/warm. Linked to yellow bile and choleric
Earth is dry/cold. Linked to black bile and melancholic.

I figured each alignment axis would be linked to wet or dry and warm or cold. Finding a good match was a bit tricky. Tentatively dry is evil, wet good. Cold lawful and warm chaotic.
So lawful good is Phlegmatic and therefore water, chaotic good Sanguine air, lawful evil melancholic earth and chaotic evil choleric fire.

I was never really satisfied with this though, so I shelved it. But humorism really seems like it would fit right in with a pathfinder alchemist and maybe could fit with the essences.

Yes, the Four Humors were among the influences on my descriptions for that character quiz question. I feel like the fact that I can say that is proof that I overthought that character quiz.


Stone Dog wrote:

This sort of reminds me of Rolemaster's realms of power; Essence, Channeling, Mentalism. The parallel is that all casters were either pure (one Realm), hybrid (two realms), or Semi (a magical Realm combined with mundane skills).

The primary casters in PF2 are going to be what could be described as Hybrids, but there could be room for Pure casters in the future. "Semi" casters could map roughly to classes like Paladins who have supernatural powers derived from a theme of a Tradition, but not spell slots.

What do we have confirmed so far...

Ma + Me = Arcane
Sp + Vi = Divine
Me + Sp = Occult

We know we have Primal coming up, but has it been fully revealed?

Ma + Vi = Primal? Almost certainly Vital magic due to the connection with the First World.
Ma + Sp = ??? I could see Shamans here, a spiritual guide with worldly concerns.
Me + Vi = Psychic? Mind over Matter has already been mentioned in this thread. Biokinetic powers have often been a thing with Psychics.

Then we have potential Pure casters. Not as many spell options, but maybe a bit more in the way of powers?

Ma = Kineticists?
Me = Mesmerists?
Sp = Spiritualists?
Vi = __________ ?

This makes a lot of sense. Witch might also fit with material/spiritual or they could be occult or possibly variable list like the sorcerer. Pure vital could be the shifter.

Shifter and kineticist are of course not spell casters, instead manifesting their magic in other ways. Perhaps the pure mental and pure spiritual could be similar, having strong powers in those realms but no spell slots. So the six mixes of two essences would be six spell lists, while the four pure essences would be non-casters.

Maybe down the line there could be something that mixes three or even all four essences. No clue what those would be. Probably best not for them to be spell lists but something else. Perhaps that's power left to the gods?


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Brock Landers wrote:
I was kinda hoping the Bard's spell list would be Primal.

Throwing fireballs and turning into dinosaurs and being unable to charm people is not a Pathfinder Bard. That said, you have Sorcerer to cover spontaneous charisma-based casting off the Primal list. It's the fey bloodline, so you probably get a dash of illusions and enchantment.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
QuidEst wrote:
Brock Landers wrote:
I was kinda hoping the Bard's spell list would be Primal.
Throwing fireballs and turning into dinosaurs and being unable to charm people is not a Pathfinder Bard. That said, you have Sorcerer to cover spontaneous charisma-based casting off the Primal list. It's the fey bloodline, so you probably get a dash of illusions and enchantment.

See, I'm wondering if the Fey bloodline wouldn't actually be a better fit for the Occult list (if it focuses on charms and the like), and something like a Plant bloodline would be better for Primal. But we'll see when the playtest comes out.


First World Bard wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Brock Landers wrote:
I was kinda hoping the Bard's spell list would be Primal.
Throwing fireballs and turning into dinosaurs and being unable to charm people is not a Pathfinder Bard. That said, you have Sorcerer to cover spontaneous charisma-based casting off the Primal list. It's the fey bloodline, so you probably get a dash of illusions and enchantment.
See, I'm wondering if the Fey bloodline wouldn't actually be a better fit for the Occult list (if it focuses on charms and the like), and something like a Plant bloodline would be better for Primal. But we'll see when the playtest comes out.

Yeah, fey being tied to nature has always been weird for Druids. Maybe they need a fey trickery spell line that provides a menu of flexibly-chosen lower-level effects?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
QuidEst wrote:
Yeah, fey being tied to nature has always been weird for Druids. Maybe they need a fey trickery spell line that provides a menu of flexibly-chosen lower-level effects?

Maybe some sort of Seelie/Unseelie distinction? They'd both be Fey Sorcerers, but the first gets Primal and the second Occult. I was going to propose Summer/Winter, but then it would be weird if Summer got Cone of Cold via Primal and Winter.... didn't.

Liberty's Edge

Maybe the Great Old Ones are actually what becomes of fey Eldest when they completely enter the Material plane

Or some fey Eldest are the drafts for Great Old Ones, or their translation/aspect in the First World

Deities know that the fey can be weird and disquieting


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UnArcaneElection wrote:


Now I've got this vision of an AP in which you have to travel through portals to stop an invasion by Cyberdaemons . . . .

Each book in the AP should be named after a cheat code:

Book 1: IDKFA
Book 2: IDPISPOPD
Book 3: IDDT
Book 4: IDCHOPPERS
Book 5: IDMYPOS (The Hexcrawl adventure)
Book 6: IDDQD


The Raven Black wrote:

Maybe the Great Old Ones are actually what becomes of fey Eldest when they completely enter the Material plane

Or some fey Eldest are the drafts for Great Old Ones, or their translation/aspect in the First World

Deities know that the fey can be weird and disquieting

Fey are primal, so material/vital.

Aberrations are occult, so spiritual/mental.

The hideous truth is apparent to any outside observer, though it continues to haunt me still:
The Eldest and Great Old Ones are mere prismatic fronds of a wild and pulsating cacophony of blasphemous forms, hateful and pallid agents of wild and malicious minds that clutch the tattered edges of the world with covetous tendrils and ravenous maws. Out there they sing horrific and discordant songs of universal truth and its cruel beauty.

Dragons are material/mental and angels/demons/devils are spiritual/vital, so something else to think about.


I would argue that the fey would be closest to pure vital or mental/vital than the material/vital of Primal magic. They aren't material plane creatures, and the material of the First World is not what I would call fully defined since it can be redefined so easily. It is however definitely immersed in positive energy (one of the bases for Vital), and the fey are known for manipulating thoughts. Though given that base instincts are apparently also Vital, I could see dropping the mental and going pure vital on the fey.

And yeah, the fey are terrifying if you look into them. You didn't think this cold iron sword was for demons, did you?


The Sideromancer wrote:
I would argue that the fey would be closest to pure vital or mental/vital than the material/vital of Primal magic. They aren't material plane creatures, and the material of the First World is not what I would call fully defined since it can be redefined so easily. It is however definitely immersed in positive energy (one of the bases for Vital), and the fey are known for manipulating thoughts. Though given that base instincts are apparently also Vital, I could see dropping the mental and going pure vital on the fey.

From what I'm getting, no spiritual means a lack of inspiration to do new things and a lack of ability to change their own nature. A lack of mental means no rational thought or higher mind. Put together I think it could come across as capricious, senseless aspects of nature fixed in their own ways. Which doesn't match great with some fey ideas, but I guess it works pretty well for malicious yet compulsive woodland spirits, and probably matches pretty well with certain yokai like those objects that come to life and are consumed by a need to act in a particular way based on their past situations.

The Sideromancer wrote:


And yeah, the fey are terrifying if you look into them. You didn't think this cold iron sword was for demons, did you?

I actually suspect I'm going to consider relating demons and fey to each other, like how I'm tempted to have werewolves be a case of diabolic possession.

Designer

Elleth wrote:
The Sideromancer wrote:
I would argue that the fey would be closest to pure vital or mental/vital than the material/vital of Primal magic. They aren't material plane creatures, and the material of the First World is not what I would call fully defined since it can be redefined so easily. It is however definitely immersed in positive energy (one of the bases for Vital), and the fey are known for manipulating thoughts. Though given that base instincts are apparently also Vital, I could see dropping the mental and going pure vital on the fey.
From what I'm getting, no spiritual means a lack of inspiration to do new things and a lack of ability to change their own nature. A lack of mental means no rational thought or higher mind. Put together I think it could come across as capricious, senseless aspects of nature fixed in their own ways. Which doesn't match great with some fey ideas, but I guess it works pretty well for malicious yet compulsive woodland spirits, and probably matches pretty well with certain yokai like those objects that come to life and are consumed by a need to act in a particular way based on their past situations.

Tsukumogami?

An interesting thought: Some fey are bound to a living thing or natural environment, like a dryad. Which of the four essences is that link providing the fey? Certainly the direct effect for the dryad is pretty life based and so it seems vital. But could it include spiritual essence from the tree, which is also a living thing, giving her a tree-like spirit?


Mark Seifter wrote:

Tsukumogami?

An interesting thought: Some fey are bound to a living thing or natural environment, like a dryad. Which of the four essences is that link providing the fey? Certainly the direct effect for the dryad is pretty life based and so it seems vital. But could it include spiritual essence from the tree, which is also a living thing, giving her a tree-like spirit?

Yes. I forgot half the letters.

Would trees even have any? I can't imagine trees having an alignment or a full soul. If I were sticking with the primal essence link for fey I'd probably run with it being an overflow of life that animates dead and shed leaves, possibly absorbing some semblance of form and self from the residual mental and spiritual essence of a dead humanoid buried beneath the tree. A grove of dryads would be a graveyard of sorts, with the fey in question related to, but very much not the same as the departed.

Designer

Elleth wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:

Tsukumogami?

An interesting thought: Some fey are bound to a living thing or natural environment, like a dryad. Which of the four essences is that link providing the fey? Certainly the direct effect for the dryad is pretty life based and so it seems vital. But could it include spiritual essence from the tree, which is also a living thing, giving her a tree-like spirit?

Yes. I forgot half the letters.

Would trees even have any? I can't imagine trees having an alignment or a full soul. If I were sticking with the primal essence link for fey I'd probably run with it being an overflow of life that animates dead and shed leaves, possibly absorbing some semblance of form and self from the residual mental and spiritual essence of a dead humanoid buried beneath the tree. A grove of dryads would be a graveyard of sorts, with the fey in question related to, but very much not the same as the departed.

A tree perhaps has spiritual and not mental, which might explain why it's so hard to understand them when you use speak with plants...or at least, if you don't buy that with plants, nature in general, while a vital and material force, does have some patches of spiritual when it comes to those bodiless "nature spirits" you contact via commune with nature and that can become embodied via leshy creation rituals.


Here's something: As far as I can tell, Feng Shui is primarily about optimizing the ki of the environment and large constructions. I would think that having a latent energy capable of animation would be the reasoning behind Tsukumogami, with the hundred years simply being the timeframe before the spiritual energy acclimates within the object enough to animate it. Since the energy is environmental, it might be possible to produce a structure that greatly accelerates (construct labour on the cheap) or decelerates (Wouldn't want the heirloom blade to spill its secrets) the process.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Sacred architecture/geometry could be great for that.


So, apparently faith is expressly tied to Vital. Discuss.


Is it unique to vital or is it on both vital and spiritual?


Bardarok wrote:
Is it unique to vital or is it on both vital and spiritual?

see for yourself


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

It isn't a mechanical distinction, so I'm not bothered. Vitality is what gives the capacity for instinct, emotions, motivation, faith and such. A setting assumption. . No problem here.


Reposting my 2 cents from the Druid thread:

As for tying "faith" to "vitality", I think much of the issue is from the current transition in the U.S. of "faith" or "having faith" from a positive connotation associated with wisdom & morality to a negative one associated with foolishness & belief beyond the evidence (or worse!).

Since PF takes place in a setting where divine revelations occur and conviction can & does change the nature of reality, I don't find an issue with usage here. In such a supernatural context, divine infusion could very well aid one's otherwise natural vitality.
It still might be prudent to shift to a synonym w/ less baggage like spirit, spirituality, conviction, animating force, essence, or whatnot. I suppose many of those overlap w/ the other magical types though...
*sigh* Such is the way of woo.

Liberty's Edge

I read the debate about Vital and faith as some people equating faith and religion

Which are not the same IMO


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
The Raven Black wrote:

I read the debate about Vital and faith as some people equating faith and religion

Which are not the same IMO

indeed. Faith doesn't even need to have a supernatural focus.


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Stone Dog wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:

I read the debate about Vital and faith as some people equating faith and religion

Which are not the same IMO

indeed. Faith doesn't even need to have a supernatural focus.

It seems that vital makes sense with faith in the playtest

faith in the supernatural, vital & spirtiual, divine list
faith in the natural, vial & material, primal list

It seems a bit odd that the occult list wouldn't have an aspect of faith to it but maybe that's the point it's a logical or emotional (mental) based look at the supernatural rather than an instinctual(vital) one. I don't have a clear view of what the occult list is really.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

In his "ask James Jacobs All your questions" thread, JJ said he would have a lot more to say about the 4 essences once the playtest drops.


Stone Dog wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:

I read the debate about Vital and faith as some people equating faith and religion

Which are not the same IMO

indeed. Faith doesn't even need to have a supernatural focus.

Faith, when merely trust, would not, but in such cases trust would be the better word. Faith, in regards to magical essences as we're talking about in this thread, would require a supernatural aspect. Once we call "faith" an objective phenomenon, then we must enter the realm of the supernatural (or "go beyond the natural" if supernatural carries too much baggage). Whether one ties that facet of faith to religious belief or not relies on one's definition of religion (a messy word on its own). This all gets messier because in most fantasy, nature itself has supernatural aspects.

We pretty much have to set aside our sensibilities and take fantasy settings as their own systems. We should hope for internal consistency, but trying to tie them into real-world models, even similar or supernatural mythologies, philosophies, & religions, becomes problematic (and potentially contentious).

This is why I don't mind the usage of faith in a PF/DnD context, but I would recommend switching to a different term to avoid faith's subjectivity.

Liberty's Edge

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Vital is the Essence of instinct, emotion, and irrationality, as opposed to Mental being the Essence of rationality, logic, and the scientific method.

How does being the Essence of irrationality not make Vital the Essence of faith? Not everyone affiliated with Vital is gonna have faith, but it's certainly part of the picture.

And I say this as a very religious person in real life, mind you. Faith is irrational. If it's not irrational (ie: not based on proof or evidence), then it's not really faith.


Upthread Mark linked emotion to mental essence not vital. But I don't see any reason that there needs to be a hard delineation. These essences are a tool for world-building not a ruleset. The resultant spell lists are the ruleset which need to balance both some sort of internal logic with the needs of the game for balanced and thematic spell lists.


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According to Mark Seifter, in 2e, vital and spiritual essences are what dictate alignment and allow creatures to diverge away from a neutrality. Also according to Mark Seifter, trees have vital and spiritual essences.

Does this mean that in the world of 2e, trees have alignments? How can a lumberjack discern the different between a lawful good tree and a chaotic evil tree?


Colette Brunel wrote:

According to Mark Seifter, in 2e, vital and spiritual essences are what dictate alignment and allow creatures to diverge away from a neutrality. Also according to Mark Seifter, trees have vital and spiritual essences.

Does this mean that in the world of 2e, trees have alignments? How can a lumberjack discern the different between a lawful good tree and a chaotic evil tree?

Relevant Humorous Link


Colette Brunel wrote:

According to Mark Seifter, in 2e, vital and spiritual essences are what dictate alignment and allow creatures to diverge away from a neutrality. Also according to Mark Seifter, trees have vital and spiritual essences.

Does this mean that in the world of 2e, trees have alignments? How can a lumberjack discern the different between a lawful good tree and a chaotic evil tree?

If only Paladins still had Smite Evil. Being able to bypass the hardness of an Evil tree seems like it would save time and effort. In it's absence, I'm going to venture a guess that the types of trees that deliberately create piles of dry brush because they happen to be good at germinating after fires are nongood.


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Colette Brunel wrote:

According to Mark Seifter, in 2e, vital and spiritual essences are what dictate alignment and allow creatures to diverge away from a neutrality. Also according to Mark Seifter, trees have vital and spiritual essences.

Does this mean that in the world of 2e, trees have alignments? How can a lumberjack discern the different between a lawful good tree and a chaotic evil tree?

Most trees hew pretty close to their deity's alignment, so just check them for (un)holy symbols....

More importantly, "vital and spiritual essences are what dictate alignment and allow creatures to diverge away from neutrality." In PF1 normal trees, lacking Wisdom & Charisma scores, are objects not creatures. In PF2 it seems likely to be the same. So, no alignment for them. Good thing that's not the only thing those essences are good for.


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Colette Brunel wrote:

According to Mark Seifter, in 2e, vital and spiritual essences are what dictate alignment and allow creatures to diverge away from a neutrality. Also according to Mark Seifter, trees have vital and spiritual essences.

Does this mean that in the world of 2e, trees have alignments? How can a lumberjack discern the different between a lawful good tree and a chaotic evil tree?

Most trees hew pretty close to their deity's alignment, so just check them for (un)holy symbols....

More importantly, "vital and spiritual essences are what dictate alignment and allow creatures to diverge away from neutrality." In PF1 normal trees, lacking Wisdom & Charisma scores, are objects not creatures. In PF2 it seems likely to be the same. So, no alignment for them. Good thing that's not the only thing those essences are good for.

You have to divine a tree's alignment from the shape of its branches and the curl of its roots.

I feel like it would be tempting to go full Uzumaki if a player tried that though.

Edit: Following from the earlier discussion of Tsukumogami, anyone reckon a "10-thousand year tree" gains free will?

Liberty's Edge

Depends how many APs it completed ;-P

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