What if the Shining Crusdae has failed ?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion


I recently listened to a podcast of the star finder AP where they introduced the ambassador for the undead planet . The idea of a largely undead or undead dominant society fascinated me - but I am not drawn to Geb

So my idea for a game concept is one set in a world where the Shining Crusade had failed. What would such a world be like? Would the Tyrant still be around or would someone else have risen to finally stop him (perhaps a god)

Which nations would no longer exist ? And would he counter strike and take a way a large amount or all of taldor?

I am intrigued about a society where undead rule but there are still orc warlords and human “traitors”

Further to all this:

- Is there any detailed information on what ustalavic society was actually like under his rule? What the culture, organisations, religion etc were like

And

- is there a better “turning point” to create this more undead dominant society that the shining crusade point I mentioned . Such as an outcome of one of the APs and then fast forward into the future

Thanks for any advice

Silver Crusade Contributor

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I expect that the Tyrant's Grasp Adventure Path, which starts next year, will be an excellent source of such information. ^_^


Kalindlara wrote:
I expect that the Tyrant's Grasp Adventure Path, which starts next year, will be an excellent source of such information. ^_^

It might have some . That said I am sure I saw a note that there wasn’t an Ustulav focus

Also this thread was primarily about considering hypothetical alternate histories , hopefully with input from people with more golarion knowledge. For example:

- What nations do not even exist and do they ever exist at all?

- Is the timeline before taldor broke up ? So no Varisia, cheliax, molthune , nirmathas etc

- would the power vacuum of taldor’s failure mean nations are never formed or that they are formed earlier? Do the thrune ancestors contact Hell earlier? Would that decision be more welcome? Or would Hell not offer as much support due to the difficulty of securing power against a potentially wrathful Tyrant depending on his spread (picking a side in a civil war is one thing, helping an uprising against an established dominant force is quite something else)

- was the Aroden return prophecy still in place at this time ? So his lack of return would be a salvation hope followed by an even more crushing disappointment? Or is my timeline off? This also changes Iomadae - who may not even ascend

This is a pretty big counter factual point now that I think more on it. It is sort of like a “what if Rome didn’t fall or even what if Rome fell even earlier than it did”. So much changes radically

I am also really intrigued in how the rule in Ustulav went. Does the Ustulav campaign setting book go into that ?

Silver Crusade Contributor

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Lanathar wrote:
It might have some . That said I am sure I saw a note that there wasn’t an Ustulav focus

Not in terms of the adventures, no, but the background and history are still likely to shed some additional light on what was, until now, a very underdeveloped phase of history.

Lanathar wrote:
I am also really intrigued in how the rule in Ustulav went. Does the Ustulav campaign setting book go into that ?

It does to some extent, although I doubt it will be detailed enough to sate your curiosity. There might also be some in the Pathfinder Tales book Prince of Wolves. ^_^


I'd assume there'd be no Iomadae - Tar-Baphon would've killed her during the failed crusade.

You can get some hints as to what Tar-Baphon's rule was like from all the really horrible things still left throughout Ustalav, like the prison-laboratory of Gheisterhall. I assume Urgathoa was the state religion during his reign (one of his top generals is an anti-paladin of Urgathoa, and Urgathoa actually shields his phylactery from divination, so very friendly relationship there), though his orc servants generally worshiped Rovagug.

Assume the place would be pretty miserable - like Geb, it'd be a place where mortals are slaves and the ultimate goal is to be rewarded with higher end undeath.

I.e., the unworthy are zombie fodder. The worthy are vampire fodder. And your real life in Tar-Baphon's Ustalav might not even start until you've been murdered and re-animated in whatever.

There'd be no Lastwall. The region would probably be orc country.

Varisia's a general region rather than a single country; Varisia would be fine-ish. (Belkzen might've expanded west and south, though, claiming more of it. Perhaps Belkzen's expanded through the Cinderlands all the way to Sorshen's resting place on the coast.)

Taldor still would've collapsed - that happened centuries after the Shining Crusade ended. Depending on how well the Belkzen orcs are doing, Korvasa may not exist. (Interestingly enough, Tar-Baphon isn't an expansionist - he ruled Ustalav for about 500 years before the Shining Crusade even started, and was pretty content with just Ustalav and the Isle of Terror as his holdings.)

Here's a weird thing - Kazavon would still be alive and at large. He never would've had the opportunity to come to power in Ustalav and build Scarwall Castle in Belkzen. (And thus never set off the chain events that culminated in his death.)

Even weirder thing - Tar-Baphon might commit significant to fighting the Worldwound, and may even by the leader of the anti-Worldwound efforts (with the whole No Iomadae thing). After all, those a%$$~@~s are trying to swallow his planet.


What about Thassilion? Would sin magic still be in power? And how would Garund and Tian Xia interact with Tarry-land?


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^Now that you mention it, with Tar-Baphon having squelched all sources of heroic opposition, the reawakening Runelords might be Necessary Evil.


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I just realized that the sins of envy and lust prohibit necromancy spells, and that gluttony specializes in that field of magic. So Calistria and Zon-Kuthon, having lust and envy as their respective fields of concern, could be Tarry’s biggest deific opposition. Makes sense, too, since Urgathoa deals with gluttony.


Since the one question leave me wondering, I should probably clarify that Thassilon was destroyed by Earthfall several millennia before Tar-Baphon ever became a lich.

Tar-Baphon's also personally stronger than most of the Runelords, for what that's worth. I believe Sorshen and Xanderghul are the only ones that punch in his weight class.

As to the gods -

Calistria's neutral to the undead (after all, many of them are born from an unquenched desire for vengeance), while Zon-Kuthon actually has a massive undead following. Calistria would probably dislike Tar-Baphon but wouldn't have any drive to declare a crusade against him.

Zon-Kuthon would probably get along with him just fine. Zon-Kuthon's pretty down with sadistic eternal tyrants.

Pretty much any deity that doesn't get along with Urgathoa (Pharasma, nearly all good deities, etc.) would have a beef with Tar-Baphon, though.

His biggest sources of opposition if he went expansionistic in the post-Aroden era would be the Worldwound (with which he shares a border) and, if he goes far enough south, the Empire of Cheliax.

Huh. No Iomedae means no first Mendevian crusade. Who put up the Wardstones in this timeline? Are there Wardstones in this timeline? Huh. No, there probably aren't. (And no, Tar-Baphon probably isn't creating an entire series of holy artifacts.) Which means the Tyrant's been dealing with an uncontained Worldwound to his north for a century.


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So if his biggest problem would be the worldwound north of him, would it be too far-fetched to think that Orcus, Kabriri, and any other undead-based nascent demon lord would be his most dangerous opposition?

To that end, maybe he would side with and of the infernal dukes that work with LE undead, since he’s close to Cheliax... and maybe likeminded kyton demagogues in Nidal. The horsemen would definitely be interested in him, since the whispering way wants to replace all life with undead creatures, right?


I have a suspicion that from the Daemonic point of view, Undead are really just more life that needs to be exterminated, although they can be tolerated as long as they are exterminating other life/unlife.

Silver Crusade Contributor

Zhangar wrote:
Huh. No Iomedae means no first Mendevian crusade. Who put up the Wardstones in this timeline? Are there Wardstones in this timeline? Huh. No, there probably aren't. (And no, Tar-Baphon probably isn't creating an entire series of holy artifacts.) Which means the Tyrant's been dealing with an uncontained Worldwound to his north for a century.

I find it more likely that there is no Worldwound in this timeline. And if there is, it's likely far more of a worldwide threat.

The Whispering Tyrant's reign far predates the opening of the Worldwound. Assuming at least some degree of expansionism, Sarkoris would have made an excellent target for conquest. A conquered Sarkoris might have never put Areelu Vorlesh in a position to tear open a hole between worlds. (Though Deskari might come to influence or work with the Tyrant instead...)

If the Worldwound still came to exist, things would probably be far worse. The Mendevian Crusades would be far less likely to properly exist, for many reasons (no Iomedae [though a persistent Tyrant doesn't necessarily preclude her existence], and no easy gathering of paladins on the Tyrant's doorstep). This likely means no wardstones, which means that the demons can move unhindered. It also means that, instead of a bunch of easily corrupted crusaders, they're dealing with relatively sinless undead or oppressed people whose capacity for corruption is limited by circumstances. Which means they no longer settle in for the demon breeding program, and instead start spreading. Which, in turn, means demons all over the place.

So an uncontained Worldwound is bad for the Tyrant... but it might be even worse for everyone else. Really glad we had that Crusade. ^_^


@ unarcane, I would argue that Charon and his servitor harbingers like Aesdurath would be in favor of the undead, if only as pawns for their own omnicidal goals. After all, Charon is the patient type. He can wait as long as he wants... or as long as the Tyrant still has his uses.

@ kalindara, so what would the Tyrant do with Sarkoris? No doubt the druids and Pulara’s worshippers would make life for the Tyrant’s followers a living hell. Maybe he would use the city of Iz’s metallurgy and stoneworking skills, but for what end?

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