Druidic Herbalism crafting time?


Rules Questions


Druidic Herbalism wrote:

Druidic herbalism is a nature bond option that can be taken by any druid at 1st level except those with archetypes or alternate class features that alter or replace nature bond or mandate a specific nature bond choice.

Instead of granting access to a domain or an animal companion, a druid’s bond with nature can take a third form: access to druidic herbalism.

A druid who chooses to learn druidic herbalism can use combinations of nuts, berries, dried herbs, and other natural ingredients along with appropriate containers to create herbal concoctions or magic consumables that function like potions. This acts like the Brew Potion feat, but only for spells on the druid spell list. Herbal concoctions are typically thick and sludgy, and their creation time, caster level, spell duplication capabilities, and all other variables and properties are identical to those of potions created using Brew Potion. Herbal concoctions created with herbs that cause special effects when ingested retain those effects as well as the appropriate spell effect.

A druid can create a number of free herbal concoctions per day equal to her Wisdom modifier. Additional concoctions cost the same as creating an equivalent potion using Brew Potion. Druids can sell their herbal concoctions just as if they were potions (though NPCs unfamiliar with druidic herbalism may need some convincing before purchasing these wares).

At 4th level, a druid’s increasing skill with herbalism means that she can disguise the effects of her herbal concoctions. When a creature attempts a Perception or Spellcraft check to identify one of the druid’s concoctions, the concoction appears to be a different herbal concoction of the druid’s choice unless the creature exceeds the identification DC by 5 or more. The druid must designate this false result when creating the concoction. If a creature exceeds the identification DC by 5 or more, it correctly identifies the concoction, though not that the druid tried to fool it.

Additionally, at 4th level, when the druid creates additional concoctions, she need pay only half the normal cost to create them. It takes her only half the normal time to create her concoctions, and she can create concoctions of spells from any spell list, as long as she can cast the spell.

At 7th level, when the druid creates concoctions with potential false identification results, a creature attempting to identify the concoction must exceed the identification DC by 10 or more to determine the concoction’s true identity.

Additionally, at 7th level, a druid can create any herbal concoction in 1 minute. She can also create a special concoction of any spell higher than 3rd level that she can cast, but to do so, she must expend a spell slot of the same level. These special concoctions do not cost her anything to create and function like extracts created by an alchemist with the infusion discovery.

Notice in particular

1) A druid can create a number of free herbal concoctions per day equal to her Wisdom modifier.
2) Herbal concoctions are typically thick and sludgy, and their creation time, caster level, spell duplication capabilities, and all other variables and properties are identical to those of potions created using Brew Potion.
The Wisdom modifier crafted potions have a cost of 0 gold.

There are several ways to interpret this. Does a druid with this ability effectively gain her modifier in free potions per day with reasonable access to materials? Does she have to 'craft' them as normal? If she does, will the fact that they cost no gold mean that she just needs a good cauldron and conversation to make them all?

Opinions are appreciated.


Mg opinion was that it was a great attempt to create something that has a tonne of loopholes and RAW issues.


Since, ordinarily, you can only make 1 potion per day, I guess the intent is that the free ones do not take time, take very little time (maybe minutes), or are done as part of spell prep; if they follow the normal creation time requirements, then it should just be that you can create 1 for free per day, and no additional.

I think that's fairly in line with what you are giving up for this (an animal companion or a domain).

I also agree with Cavall; this seems kinda poorly thought out.

Grand Lodge

I read it as the potions take 2 hours each as per brew potion but you could brew multiple in a day and they cost 0 gp. This turned out decently balanced in my game.


The creation time is identical to the equivalent potion created via brew potion, which does not have a cost of 0.

So even though the concoction costs the druid 0, its creation time still depends on what the potion would have costed. So 2 hours for a potion of 250gp or less,or 8 hours for up to 1000gp.

It still is a ridiculously powerful ability, allowing you to generate up to 1000gp worth of potions for free each day, selling them for half that for pure profit. With any kind of downtime it just completely breaks WBL.

This becomes irrelevant at level 7, when you can craft them in 1 minute regardless of equivalent potion cost, completely breaking wealth by level even if you don't have any downtime.

Very poorly written ability.


This is...broken. You can create a 1st level potion with an effect up to 5th level caster in 2 hours. Any other more powerful potion can be made 1 per day. As long as your Wis modifier is 4 or more you can make 4 1st level potions for free or 1 more powerful potion for free per day.

Even when you are traveling you can create a 250gp potion every other day since you can get 2 hours of magic crafting in per 2 travel days.

And then you hit 7th level. Wow, you become a potion making machine. You'd be able to make half price potions in a minute. Ridiculous! If you can convince a potion dealer to buy them you could basically get the daily sales value of a community of any size...half of that as profit. Seriously, as a GM I'd just have merchants refuse to buy them. Though towns folk would always buy a few. Just roll a d10 x 100gp in profit per day the druid sells herbal remedies in town.

And the really weird thing is for your wis modifier in potions you can use your full caster level in effect because its free. That is huge!


For character wealth alone it's balance it's just way off.

All the other reasons listed above are just icing to the "nice try" cake


From what I can tell, the druid seems to just bypass restrictions Wisdom Modifier times per day, and then it takes crafting time. It probably would be more reasonable to have it take more time.


Quote:
A druid can create a number of free herbal concoctions per day equal to her Wisdom modifier. Additional concoctions cost the same as creating an equivalent potion using Brew Potion

Free and additional cost the same. It's not just bypassing the time.

It just wrecks the economy.

Grand Lodge

If you enforce the 2 hour crafting time per potion and make them unsellable it's not that bad in my experience. But yeah, as written they're sellable which makes it silly.


Personally rather than do that I'd like to make them daily remedies that go bad unused. Stuck firm to the min caster limit. You're making potions that are fresh plants that go bad kind of thing.

So really to me it would be a small pool of potions that you could hand out and anyone could use, but would be worthless outside that time line so economy stays ok.

It's still versatile. And the ones paid for could still be using the rules given. Just the free ones should be monitored.


Even if you did that, at 7th level it becomes broken from an economy stand point. You can make potions at half the creation cost in 1 minute.

Lets say you're in a Town with a buy limit of 1,000 gp. You make a cure light potion for 12.5gp, it sells to a merchant for 25gp. 40 minutes of crafting is 1,000gp for the cheapest potion in the game. And you can make 3rd level potions in the same 1 minute.

If you wandered to a major metropolis with a buy limit of 16,000gp you could make 8,000gp a day in just 43 minutes of crafting 3rd level potions plus the time it takes to fence them.

Its tempting to make a character to abuse this. My problem is I can't think of a way to get more spells on the Druid's list without severely weakening the character. The idea is to make a useful character that makes potions to help the party, not to make a useless character that does nothing but make potions for the party!

So, anyone got some ideas that don't rely on 3rd party?


From my understanding, it likely ties into the same logic of selling spellcasting services; maybe you can in downtime, but the DM will probably block it unless you're desperate. If that's the case, selling the potions would make comparable money to just selling your services.

The middle-ground I've found is just presuming they can't be sold unless it's a desperate situation. Slowly gaining a small stockpile of potions at the cost of scrolls in return for an animal companion? That's not a deal that appeals to most players. Animal companions are very powerful.


They are ok. They suck the cost of buffing up like they are another player, for reduced damage and extra long turn time.

Personally I usually go for the domain. That being said hunters are a different story.


Animal Companion is really powerful, but I think Druidic Herbalism can be broken without any economic impact.

Say you learn the metamagic Extend. Once you hit 7th level you start making Extended Concoctions of Barkskin. Most Barkskin potions would be minimum level (+2, for 30 min). Yours would be at your max level and extended because its free. So at 7th level its a +3 for 140 min. That is enough duration that it will last longer than most dungeon runs. And a side benifit would be that it frees up the neck slot for the rest of the party to consider something other than an amulet of natural armor.

While that is nice, what I actually see as broken would be taking the trait "accelerated drinking" and the making concoctions of Channel the Gift. Drink as a move action, cast a 3rd level or lower spell for free. Assuming at 8th level you max out Wis and get your hands on a +4 wis headband (or just buff yourself for the extra +2 wis mod) you could be making an additional 8 3rd level spell slots per day. Assuming you talked to the rest of your party the other casters could pick up acclerated drinking trait as well and now you've got a wizard that throws around Fireballs, Dispel Magic and Stinking Cloud like nothing because you gave him 8 extra uses.

And instead of casting Heal...make a Heal concoction and just hand it to whomever is most likely to need it. Almost as good as having a Reach Metamagic Rod. And this isn't something you have to do at the beginning of the day, you can do it anytime you can take a minute.

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