Vigilante Talents rule question


Rules Questions


Obviously the initial works were written with two specs in mind: Avenger and Stalker. However, since then, there have been multiple archetypes added and from what I can see, no change to the initial statement of "you must be an Avenger to qualify", etc in vigilante talent selection.

If you take out all the talents that say specifically Avenger or specifically Stalker, you are left with very few talents to choose from.

Does anyone know if this has been updated to reflect the additional archetypes that have been added?

Thank you in advance

Scarab Sages

Avenger and Stalker aren't archetypes. They're vigilante specializations. Even if you have an archetype, you still have one of the two specializations. Hangman Vigilante, for example, must select Stalker.


Ferious Thune wrote:
Avenger and Stalker aren't archetypes. They're vigilante specializations. Even if you have an archetype, you still have one of the two specializations. Hangman Vigilante, for example, must select Stalker.

Correct but there are those that replace the specialization.

In that case, what do you suggest?

Scarab Sages

Can you point out which archetype? If they replace the specialization, then you're probably limited to selecting vigilante talents that don't require a specialization, unfortunately.


Looks like any restrictions are by design. A quick glance through and it seems that they either tell you which specialisation talents you can choose (such as bellflower harvester), give you a small selection of alternative talents (gunmaster), or simply restrict you to general talents for balance (warlock).

Scarab Sages

Warlock replaces half the talents, to it's essentially adding spell casting to the list, then forcing you to select it. And it adds several more that you can choose from.

It's worth noting that Warlock appears in the same book as the class (Ultimate Intrigue), so it's not an issue of later content not taking this into account. At least not for that archetype. That one was definitely by design.

The Exchange

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There are actually more talents that don't require a specialization than those that are Avenger or Stalker only.

Most Vigilante Talents are better for melee characters than other builds, but some are broadly applicable. Tell us what kind of character you want and maybe we can point you at some talents.

Depending on your build, some of these may be good:

  • Lethal Grace - Weapon Finesse and bonus damage
  • Shield of Blades - Power Attack and get a shield bonus to AC
  • Shadow's Speed - +10 feet speed and another 10 feet at 8th level
  • Armor Skin - no armor check penalty on common skills and move full speed in medium armor at 8th level
  • Cunning Feint - just really good in general. At 8th level it's essentially Improved Feint, Greater Feint, and Improved Two-Weapon Feint all wrapped up in one talent.
  • Perfect Vulnerability - make an attack of any kind that targets flat-footed touch AC

There's others that come from other books (Whip of Vengeance from ISI is quite powerful for a whip build) as well.


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Legendary Villains Vigilante by Legendary games for example has like eight or so new vigilante archetypes. The Dread Champion for examples says:

This ability replaces vigilante specialization.

So basically it doesn't have a specialization. So in that case all the stalker AND all the avenger talents are excluded?


Taason the Black wrote:

Legendary Villains Vigilante by Legendary games for example has like eight or so new vigilante archetypes. The Dread Champion for examples says:

This ability replaces vigilante specialization.

So basically it doesn't have a specialization. So in that case all the stalker AND all the avenger talents are excluded?

If it were Paizo product I would confidently say that yes all stalker and avenger talents are excluded.

To be fair you might be better off heading to the 3PP lounge or direct to Legendary Games forums (if they have them). That said most 3PP products are created to a good standard, and I would expect the answer to be the same.

Shadow Lodge

I can't find the actual version, but the [rul=https://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1484/45/1484457943983.pdf]playtest[/url] Dread Champion appears to (1) have archetype specific talents and (2) replace four vigilante talents with spellcasting.

It seems likely that the inability to choose stalker and avenger talents is entirely intentional.

But indeed it might be a good idea to look in a different area with a more specific title to answer 3pp questions. N Jolly is a regular on the boards so you might even get an answer from the designer.


Was actually hoping to hear about this, too. Friend of mine bought the Legendary Villains: Vigilantes book for me because I wanted to play a Symbiote character and originally I was gonna wind up doing a kind of Wild Soul/Synthesist summoner multiclass deal, but after some googling found out that there was a whole class for them already.

After looking at the book, it says that the Vigilante Specialization is replaced, but I was wondering if they were forcibly locked into either Stalker or Avenger, or if they just don't get one at all. Hoping it's the former, because a lot of the talents that are exclusive to the specializations are really nice, especially the ones that are included in the book itself.


If your specialization is replaced, then you don't get stalker or avenger, you get the new specialization offered by the archetype. Yes, it's a bummer.

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