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There will most likely be a free rules website, which you wont have to buy.
Which really greases the wheels of this whole edition change thing, in my opinion.
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Not sure that they will sell PF2 versions of new PF1 books
Yeah, I think the devs mentioned (somewhere, I think in a podcast, but I can't recall of the top of my head) that their goal is not to create the same product twice, like they didn't just create PF versions of 3.5 books, so I'm guessing most of the books will be new content (and yes, they probably will have some parts of some books that are simply existing PF1 classes, because it'd be a shame if you couldn't play a magus or an oracle in PF2, but it'll likely be a smaller part of the book than wholly new content)
Not sure that they will sell PF2 versions of new PF1 booksYeah, I think the devs mentioned (somewhere, I think in a podcast, but I can't recall of the top of my head) that their goal is not to create the same product twice, like they didn't just create PF versions of 3.5 books, so I'm guessing most of the books will be new content (and yes, they probably will have some parts of some books that are simply existing PF1 classes, because it'd be a shame if you couldn't play a magus or an oracle in PF2, but it'll likely be a smaller part of the book than wholly new content)
I wonder how they'll handle something fluff-heavy like Inner Sea Gods? The obvious thing to do is reprint all the fluff while updating / changing all the crunch, but that much duplication will sit poorly with those who own PF1 ISG. OTOH, PF2 players who don't own PF1 ISG will need something to tell them the lore of the gods.
I wonder how they'll handle something fluff-heavy like Inner Sea Gods? The obvious thing to do is reprint all the fluff while updating / changing all the crunch, but that much duplication will sit poorly with those who own PF1 ISG. OTOH, PF2 players who don't own PF1 ISG will need something to tell them the lore of the gods.Not sure that they will sell PF2 versions of new PF1 booksYeah, I think the devs mentioned (somewhere, I think in a podcast, but I can't recall of the top of my head) that their goal is not to create the same product twice, like they didn't just create PF versions of 3.5 books, so I'm guessing most of the books will be new content (and yes, they probably will have some parts of some books that are simply existing PF1 classes, because it'd be a shame if you couldn't play a magus or an oracle in PF2, but it'll likely be a smaller part of the book than wholly new content)
Depending on how much Doomsday Dawn impacts cosmology, it might not just be reprinting the same fluff. There will probably be a lot that is the same, just for consistency, but there might be stuff that isn't covered by what's already in ISG.
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Another possibility is a more in-depth exploration of, say, the Good Gods in one book, the Neutral ones in another, and the Evil ones in another (or Lawful, Neutral, and Chaotic, I suppose).
That'd mimic what they've vaguely indicated they might do instead of a new Inner Sea World Guide (ie: Region Books).
One can compare the 3.5 books to their Pathfinder books. None were really updated, but instead offered in different collections.
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There will most likely be a free rules website, which you wont have to buy.Which really greases the wheels of this whole edition change thing, in my opinion.
Assuming they get the PF2 rules online faster than Starfinder. I mean, there's at last one external site that has the SF-rules. I appreciate that something like that takes time but SF is out for like a year now.
Also, the last update of the PRD was more than 2 years ago. Kind of makes you wonder how much priority the online rules have for Paizo at the moment.
Depending on how much Doomsday Dawn impacts cosmology, it might not just be reprinting the same fluff. There will probably be a lot that is the same, just for consistency, but there might be stuff that isn't covered by what's already in ISG.I wonder how they'll handle something fluff-heavy like Inner Sea Gods? The obvious thing to do is reprint all the fluff while updating / changing all the crunch, but that much duplication will sit poorly with those who own PF1 ISG. OTOH, PF2 players who don't own PF1 ISG will need something to tell them the lore of the gods.Not sure that they will sell PF2 versions of new PF1 booksYeah, I think the devs mentioned (somewhere, I think in a podcast, but I can't recall of the top of my head) that their goal is not to create the same product twice, like they didn't just create PF versions of 3.5 books, so I'm guessing most of the books will be new content (and yes, they probably will have some parts of some books that are simply existing PF1 classes, because it'd be a shame if you couldn't play a magus or an oracle in PF2, but it'll likely be a smaller part of the book than wholly new content)
I thought they'd said the setting changes would be minimal? No?
Really what I want is fluff-duplication in new versions of the books plus the ability to turn in my ISG for a substantial discount on ISG2. Ditto ISWG etc.
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I thought they'd said the setting changes would be minimal? No?
Not precisely. They said there would be almost no 'between edition' changes (and certainly no major ones). Almost all changes would be something that happened in an adventure. But there have been a few major changes in adventures, I mean, the Worldwound is closed, and that's pretty major.
That said, I doubt there are going to be very many Deity changes (it's been mentioned that Nocticula will be rising to a CN deity, but that's about as major as we're likely to see). The Core 20 Gods certainly aren't changing in any major way.
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I thought the line was that the whole risen Noct thing was not going to be a change in the initial edition change but rather was basically confirmed to happen fairly soon down the pipe in some AP or another
It is (I believe in Return of the Runelords), and I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I was just saying that was the only Deity change I could think of between PF1 and PF2.
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I think this is part of the reason that the hardcovers coming out this year are much more "fluff" heavy than in the past. No new classes and limited new mechanics, but lots of fun info about the outer planes etc. that can be used in P2 with ease, even if the Demigod stat blocks are obsolete.
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Hypothetically you could include Deskari and/or Baphomet being corpsed since I don't think Paizo has confirmed/denied that them getting ganked in Wrath was part of the canon result of the Worldwound closing. I mostly extrapolated they just got mugged for their lunch money and left alive in order to preserve the cosmology. If Noct rising in Return makes the transition, that view would need some reevaluation.
Actually, yeah, that's fair. I'd bet Deskari is dead but Baphomet's alive, just because that makes more dramatic sense (and more sense with Baphomet's character)...but both could easily be dead.
Some Demon Lord attrition remains the biggest deity change we're likely to see, though.
Hypothetically you could include Deskari and/or Baphomet being corpsed since I don't think Paizo has confirmed/denied that them getting ganked in Wrath was part of the canon result of the Worldwound closing. I mostly extrapolated they just got mugged for their lunch money and left alive in order to preserve the cosmology. If Noct rising in Return makes the transition, that view would need some reevaluation.Actually, yeah, that's fair. I'd bet Deskari is dead but Baphomet's alive, just because that makes more dramatic sense (and more sense with Baphomet's character)...but both could easily be dead.
Some Demon Lord attrition remains the biggest deity change we're likely to see, though.
I feel like the safe thing to do is just to not use Deskari or Baphomet in any official material (at least in Paizo adventures) ever again, since some groups murked both.
It's not like we're short on Demon Lords, the Abyss is always spitting out new ones, and likely some of what went into the development of WotR is "which Demon Lords are disposable?".
I just bought Inner Sea Gods, Book of the Damned and pre-ordered Planar Adventures a few weeks ago, because those are mostly setting books and can't be outdated by a new edition. Also Bestiary 6, because I'm enough of completionist to want to own all of that series of books and I still plan to run some of the latest adventure paths (which always heavily feature monsters from the latest bestiary).
So, yeah. Still going to buy all the new stuff in terms of core rules and from then on the books which feature new rules. Not sure if I'd buy a second edition Planar Adventures again, though.
I still cannot get over the retcon that erased the Evil Clerics of Pharasma :-(
I don't recall that one, but if it's not crucial to the story of Golarion, I could see that being repealed in PF2e, especially with the introduction of Channeling being independent of Alignment (and specifically, Pharasman clerics not being able to heal undead any longer). In fact, with the whole 'clerics alignments are not solely based off one-step from their deity' any longer, I could definitely see Pharasma being the one deity who any alignment could worship. After all, the corner alignments die just as easily as True Neutral.
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The rulebooks will be remade. Yes. It's not a reprint.
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Remember that there won't be a lot of new books for PF2 for a couple years.
The first new book will be published in August 2019, and we don't have a schedule for what will come after that as far as hardcovers are concerned. But obviously, there won't be a lot of new hardbacks in the 3 months before 2020.
So, if you want to wait a couple years for new stuff, then sure, stop buying PF1 material now. But if you want to keep playing withe they write and publish the new material, then you may want to keep acquiring PF1 publications.
And, as others have said previously, they aren't planning on a simple cut and paste reprint. It's new material for the new game. If it's flavor stuff and not simply rules that you like, then buying PF1 materials for the flavor would be a good strategy. Who knows how long it will take staff to work their way through all the current publications and cover all the current material?
They aren't going to convert 10 years worth of material and shoehorn it into 18 to 20 months of publications.
Admittedly, I am very interested how they plan to duplicate another 10 years cycle for PF2E without reprinting all those setting books with updated rules and some new fluff. I guess they might heavily invest in Tian Xia and Arcadia to not have to repeat themselves incessantly.
I have no problems buying books like the Advanced Players Guide and Ultimate Intrigue again. Though for the latter one has to ask if those relatively new rules (intrigue related subsystems) need updating for the next edition.
Admittedly, I am very interested how they plan to duplicate another 10 years cycle for PF2E without reprinting all those setting books with updated rules and some new fluff. I guess they might heavily invest in Tian Xia and Arcadia to not have to repeat themselves incessantly.
I have no problems buying books like the Advanced Players Guide and Ultimate Intrigue again. Though for the latter one has to ask if those relatively new rules (intrigue related subsystems) need updating for the next edition.
It's an interesting question. One imagines that if the subsystems are good enough to warrant using in PF2, they should maybe just get folded into the core rules. If they have problems and could be done better, it might be worth putting out a new book.
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I still cannot get over the retcon that erased the Evil Clerics of Pharasma :-(Huh? What retcon? There are no indications of a lack of Evil Clerics of Paharasma in PF2.
Raven is probably confusing how the Heal/Harm thing is no longer based on alignment, but on specific tenants of the deity. Regardless of alignment, no cleric of Pharasma can channel energy which heals undead. But Raven is reading that as "no more evil Pharasma clerics."
As another example, Lamashtu can now use positive energy because she's all about birthing which requires some healing. But that doesn't mean she will now have good clerics.
A lot of folks didn't read that blog closely and I guess haven't been corrected since.
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I still cannot get over the retcon that erased the Evil Clerics of Pharasma :-(Huh? What retcon? There are no indications of a lack of Evil Clerics of Paharasma in PF2.Raven is probably confusing how the Heal/Harm thing is no longer based on alignment, but on specific tenants of the deity. Regardless of alignment, no cleric of Pharasma can channel energy which heals undead. But Raven is reading that as "no more evil Pharasma clerics."
As another example, Lamashtu can now use positive energy because she's all about birthing which requires some healing. But that doesn't mean she will now have good clerics.
A lot of folks didn't read that blog closely and I guess haven't been corrected since.
You are right. I was confusing Evil Clerics and Negative channeling Clerics. It is the latter (I played one) who cannot exist anymore
I was also mixing it up with Shelyn not having True Neutral Clerics anymore
I blame the incredible amount of info we have been subjected to ;-)
I thing that after the PF2 core rule book, that we will get a new edition of Pathfinder Campaign setting: Inner sea world guide.
And that's a book i will happily buy :-)Damn a lot has happen in Golarion, the last 10 years :-)
They already said that they don't want to put out another complete campaign setting book like the Inner Sea Guide, but more of a smaller update book.
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The things I'll be watching most closely are:
a) How much feels heavily recycled/repackaged? From most of what they've said, it sounds like they want to avoid that, that's good. (Aside from maybe the giant first big book of monsters, designed to help run pf1 modules/APs in pf2, which sounds like a great goal for the ecosystem).
b) How content is organized in new hardcovers? I've not been happy with SF's Alien Archive organization (scattered PC items/races inline with monster stat blocks). Pact Worlds did a better job with their items, but I still would have liked all the Themes consolidated in one easier to reference place. It bothers me less in PW since that's a setting book that is generally appropriate for both players and GMs to be studying. With both Armory and AA2 coming out soon we can see how they're evolving those patterns in SF.
What I'm sorta hoping for, is for them to flip the Player Companion and Campaign Setting lines -- longer Player Companions that build out some of the missing options with Core classes that people expect/identify. Shorter Campaign Setting books that are updates (but need to still be self-contained enough that people don't need to buy 1e books if they don't have them). And ensure the Player Companions get stronger editorial vetting of rules/options.
Having been through a lot of "new editions" of like a dozen of other RPGs, I would expect to see a lot of the same ground tread but in a different order.
Like for a concrete example, the first edition of Exalted had a book about how the economy worked, with subsections on different regions of the world. Second edition had no comparable economy book, but instead did books about the different regions and each one had information about that region's economy. It wasn't exactly the same information; it was updated for metaplot changes and seen through a different lens, but you still had all the same stuff to think about.
So I wouldn't expect a retread of "Ultimate Magic", "Ultimate Combat", "the Advanced Race Guide", "the Advanced Class Guide", etc. So while a lot of stuff from those books will be revisited, it's conceivable that the same book might contain, say, the Witch, Magus, Occultist, Oracle,and Kitsune; the fact those things were split between four or five books in PF1 won't keep them from being in a single book with a different unifying theme in PF2. A goal will likely be for each new hardcover to contain a significant amount of stuff we never saw in PF2 mixed in with the new versions of old stuff. So if a book had 8 classes in it, 3 might be wholly new and 5 might be reprints.
I feel like "get popular choices for classes and races/ancestries back in the game" is going to be a priority.
So we're likely to get like the Kineticist and Occultist back well before year 8, and quite possibly before the Skald, Swasbuckler, or Summoner.
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So I wouldn't expect a retread of "Ultimate Magic", "Ultimate Combat", "the Advanced Race Guide", "the Advanced Class Guide", etc. So while a lot of stuff from those books will be revisited, it's conceivable that the same book might contain, say, the Witch, Magus, Occultist, Oracle,and Kitsune; the fact those things were split between four or five books in PF1 won't keep them from being in a single book with a different unifying theme in PF2. A goal will likely be for each new hardcover to contain a significant amount of stuff we never saw in PF2 mixed in with the new versions of old stuff. So if a book had 8 classes in it, 3 might be wholly new and 5 might be reprints.
This is what I expect and hope for. I think it's likely one of the first hardcovers will be very much a player splat, but I think it will be a mix of classes/stuff from past books, and probably a large amount of new or effectively new material. And the overall format might very well get shaken up, which is sort of what has happened with some recent books like Ultimate Wilderness, which had both new player races AND a new class, plus setting info.
I want them to just make a book that is just updated versions of the non-core classes and related feats/spells/etc. Nothing for core, no new classes. Just a book that lets me play the classes I already like and lets me play them ASAP.
I don't want to wait eight years for a hardcover that squeezes in a few pages for the Inquisitor.
I imagine a revised class book will come out VERY quickly. Can't predict how complete it will be; I would be more interested in getting as many classes out as either all-up classes or archetypes, and only package the classes with new sub-systems if absolutely needed to support the class itself. Perhaps the psychic might not make the first class book, but the mesmerist and kineticist might. But they may disagree, and spread the new classes out instead of quintupling the number of legal classes all in one go.
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If they can't handle updating a lot of existing material, it tells me two things:
1) Paizo didn't learn lessons from the first time the classes were introduced.
2) 2E, as a system, isn't as streamlined/simplified as they think. It will just seem that way because so much will be erased.Paizo can update material as quickly or slowly as they like, my preference is still my preference.
Well there are other factors as well to consider:
1) They probably want to do more than just the bare minimum needed to make those classes work. And they are probably going to want to playtest many/most of these classes. That takes time, and introducing a million classes at once will diminish how much time any given class is playtested
2) Some people full stop won't buy a book that is just updates of existing content. To get those consumers, you really need to mix in new material as well
3) There are a finite number of options in any game system, even PF 2E. If you want the game to have legs, mass dumping updated content is going to rapidly fill up that design space. Slow and Steady = a system they can produce for longer.
2) Some people full stop won't buy a book that is just updates of existing content. To get those consumers, you really need to mix in new material as well
I mean, some people won't, but I don't think they're planning on migrating to PF2 anyways. The entire PF2 playtest is an update to the PF1 core rulebook.
Lets say they hypothetically update 20 classes in a book. That's all the APG, and most of the other base, hybrid, and occult classes. Some like the Vigilante and Gunslinger might be archetypes; some could be new suites of class feats like the brawler, ninja, or samurai. Just updating those classes and putting enough spells and feats into the same book to make them playable will add a TON of new content to PF2, quite a bit of it also usuable by the core classes. Even if I didn't plan to play any of the reintroduced classes, I'd probably look at the new primal cantrips that were written for the shaman but available to a druid, or the new divine warrior class feats that a warpriest rocks but a paladin might also select.
Hybrid classes don't seem to be as important with how modular the core classes will be. And some of the old classes don't feel nearly as unique in the new action economy-- looking at the magus and the war priest there. I'm starting to suspect wizards will play a lot like a PF1 witch, at least with how their resource consumption works.
Hybrid classes don't seem to be as important with how modular the core classes will be. And some of the old classes don't feel nearly as unique in the new action economy-- looking at the magus and the war priest there. I'm starting to suspect wizards will play a lot like a PF1 witch, at least with how their resource consumption works.
I feel like some of the hybrid classes have a thematic niche that merits their inclusion in the game as something other than a mixture of two other classes. Like the Shaman class in particular would be a good thing to have to represent cleric equivalents from more animist cultures.
I feel like the Bloodrager also, as someone who has the same sort of magical blood as a sorcerer, but it manifested very differently is worth including.
Hybrid classes don't seem to be as important with how modular the core classes will be. And some of the old classes don't feel nearly as unique in the new action economy-- looking at the magus and the war priest there. I'm starting to suspect wizards will play a lot like a PF1 witch, at least with how their resource consumption works.I feel like some of the hybrid classes have a thematic niche that merits their inclusion in the game as something other than a mixture of two other classes. Like the Shaman class in particular would be a good thing to have to represent cleric equivalents from more animist cultures.
I feel like the Bloodrager also, as someone who has the same sort of magical blood as a sorcerer, but it manifested very differently is worth including.
I actually strongly agree on the shaman-- I think so many characters get the title shaman that not having that class is going to really hurt. But it might be time for it to get a somewhat new identity. It may not be a witch/oracle hybrid when both those classes will be getting reinvented.
The bloodrager currently feels pretty easy to graft onto the Barbarian somehow, but I won't object to a separate class with spell points.
But other stuff seems harder to justify. They really want rogues to be king of skills so the investigator seems out for now, and rogues can just learn alchemy anyway. Brawlers seem less relevant since Fighters get a martial flexibility variant. Parrying seems built into certain equipment and riposte will probably be a feat, so the Swashbuckler seems less relevant. Barbarians already get Contagious Rage so Skald's have even less of a niche despite being being such a metal class. Not sure where the Slayer falls until we see the Ranger. The arcanist exploits are probably going to largely become wizard feats and their casting mechanics probably won't a high priority if they weren't made the norm for prepared casters.
I think there are a lot of other classes which seem more relevant to port over. Not that I object to seeing hybrids return eventually.
While everything you say is true, Captain, there's still a certain benefit to actually taking the time to crank out the classes, and do the mixing and matching necessary at an official level.
I agree that the new modularity and action economy is going to render many classes either redundant or able to be approximated with some tweaks. I even pointed out that Gunslingers and Vigilantes would be prime candidates for becoming archetypes, some others will be able to be approximated by allowing classes to pick up other class's feats; a bloodrager could just be a barbarian that can pick sorcerer class feats, a bard might just need the Contagious rage feat and a basic rage ability instead of inspiration to make a skald.
None of that matters. People are going to want to have their classes as soon as possible, If the changes are fairly minor, and don't disrupt the core game and wind up being only a page or two (a couple new class feats, with a note listing which core class feats you also get access to), so much the better.
I feel that, rather than take up all the design ground, this will clear the creative decks. Instead of demanding to know where their witch is, when is the arcanist going to be updated, players can look forward to what ELSE the developers can come up with when they put out Ultimate Arcane.
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They really want rogues to be king of skills so the investigator seems out for now, and rogues can just learn alchemy anyway.
I mostly agree in terms of what Hybrid Classes should get remade (Shaman and maybe Bloodrager...the rest don't seem necessary), but I'll actually say I think there's also a place for Investigator. Replacing a Rogue's non-skill Features with some of those an Alchemist gets (daily alchemical items) and possibly an Int-based combat style ala Studied Combat seems pretty viable to me as a Class, or at least an Archetype.
The list of Classes that need to be converted is actually really short:
Inquisitor
Oracle
Summoner
Witch
Magus
Bloodrager
Investigator
Shaman
Kineticist
Medium
Mesmerist
Occultist
Psychic
And then maybe something for Cavalier and Spiritualist (though I could easily see Spiritualist as a Summoner Archetype and Cavalier might just be covered by some sort of Knight of an Order Archetype).
Gunslinger and Swashbuckler are also very popular and may get converted for that reason, though I think mechanically that's not super necessary.
That's a small enough list to fit in two books and still leave room for new Classes in both.
I believe they said around the time the playtest was first announced that "ALL" classes will be ported, and they will try to do it soon-ish. Except Gunslinger I guess, which was said to require more playtesting.