Wisdom for Halfings


Pathfinder Playtest

Scarab Sages

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We did it!

Whoooooooo! :D

I'm going to go out on a limb here and claim it was my limerick that tipped the balance.


Homely Halflings?


As I said in another post regarding:

"I endorse this entirely, also a nod to the original Hobbits/Halflings (little rumpoids), very attune to surroundings, how to hide quickly, especially from big folk, good survival instincts...sounds like most small mammals."

Scarab Sages

Weather Report wrote:

As I said in another post regarding:

"I endorse this entirely, also a nod to the original Hobbits/Halflings (little rumpoids), very attune to surroundings, how to hide quickly, especially from big folk, good survival instincts...sounds like most small mammals."

Is there another thread on this? It didn't turn up when I searched for «Halfling Wisdom».

Exo-Guardians

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I've always wondered why Halflings got Charisma over Wisdom. THen again I take the Tolkien view of them. Halfings, or Hobbits as I tend to slip up and call them, are a simple folk who focus on the community, they love the simple things in life, from a well stocked pantry to neat ordered rows of good tilled earth.

Hobbits are the only race in history to have ever held gardeners in high esteem. They have no need for great warriors, and if they do fight when the fighting is done they simply return home to a good meal and a warm hearth.

Man now I want to just play a hobbit.

Liberty's Edge

Quandary wrote:
Homely Halflings?

No more than Humans are. Everyone has a floating +2 now, remember. So a Halfling Bard, for example, is fine, they'll just have Wis 12 and not a lot of Str.

And yeah, Wisdom Halflings probably fit the flavor text regarding halflings better than Charisma Halflings ever did. It also neatly solves the overly large similarities between the three Small Ancestries, since with Halflings as Dex/Wis, they have only one similarity with either of the other Small Ancestries (Dex with the Goblin, a Str penalty with the Gnome), and those two also only have one similarity between each other too (both have a Cha bonus).

It also more evenly distributes bonuses between the Ancestries to the following:

0 Str, 3 Dex, 2 Con, 1 Int, 2 Wis, 2 Cha

Still a bit heavy on Dex bonuses and low on Str bonuses, but that's unavoidable due to legacy issues.

I hope this is actually true. That seems likely, mind you, but I won't be sure until I see the playtest document.

Liberty's Edge

Catharsis wrote:
Weather Report wrote:

As I said in another post regarding:

"I endorse this entirely, also a nod to the original Hobbits/Halflings (little rumpoids), very attune to surroundings, how to hide quickly, especially from big folk, good survival instincts...sounds like most small mammals."

Is there another thread on this? It didn't turn up when I searched for «Halfling Wisdom».

He mentioned it in the Barbarian thread, where Mark made his comment.

Liberty's Edge

Nice! Now if they just moved the dwarven stat flaw to Dex...


DMW wrote:
It also neatly solves the overly large similarities between the three Small Ancestries, since with Halflings as Dex/Wis, they have only one similarity with either of the other Small Ancestries (Dex with the Goblin, a Str penalty with the Gnome)

You mean Ratfolk as 3rd Core Small race with INT and DEX bonus? ;-)

(I could see Ratfolk going +INT/CON -STR too, Rats being resilient in filthy enviros etc, though that could be like Dwarf Poison bonus)

Scarab Sages

Deadmanwalking wrote:
I hope this is actually true. That seems likely, mind you, but I won't be sure until I see the playtest document.

It's blindingly obvious that this is what Mark alludes to. He famously writes the best blog posts after all, and that sentence is just uncharacteristically badly worded unless you accept he just wanted to shoehorn «wise» in there. ;o)

I do wonder, though, whether Goblins and Gnomes are still both +Cha... I suspect yes, but we'll see. :)


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Quandary wrote:
Homely Halflings?

No more than Humans are. Everyone has a floating +2 now, remember. So a Halfling Bard, for example, is fine, they'll just have Wis 12 and not a lot of Str.

And yeah, Wisdom Halflings probably fit the flavor text regarding halflings better than Charisma Halflings ever did. It also neatly solves the overly large similarities between the three Small Ancestries, since with Halflings as Dex/Wis, they have only one similarity with either of the other Small Ancestries (Dex with the Goblin, a Str penalty with the Gnome), and those two also only have one similarity between each other too (both have a Cha bonus).

It also more evenly distributes bonuses between the Ancestries to the following:

0 Str, 3 Dex, 2 Con, 1 Int, 2 Wis, 2 Cha

Still a bit heavy on Dex bonuses and low on Str bonuses, but that's unavoidable due to legacy issues.

I hope this is actually true. That seems likely, mind you, but I won't be sure until I see the playtest document.

I wouldn't be surprised if Half-human ancestries no longer have Floating bonuses (at least no more than the other non-human races), So I could see Half-orcs shoring up the 0 in the Str catagory

Catharsis wrote:
I do wonder, though, whether Goblins and Gnomes are still both +Cha... I suspect yes, but we'll see. :)

I'd suspect Goblins to maybe shift, but TBH, I don't know how. Goblins don't seem right for +Cha (at least automatically), but I don't think Wis or Int work much better, and at least so far they're sticking with +2 Mental, +2 Physical, +2 Free, -2 Something.

Liberty's Edge

Paladinosaur wrote:
Nice! Now if they just moved the dwarven stat flaw to Dex...

Unlikely. There's not nearly as much support for it and there are no other Cha penalty Ancestries making it feel like we're overloaded on them (as there were with Halflings being a Cha bonus Ancestry).

I'm not even sure it's a good idea, as it would make them worse at some Classes they should traditionally be good at (Fighter, most notably).

Liberty's Edge

Catharsis wrote:
It's blindingly obvious that this is what Mark alludes to. He famously writes the best blog posts after all, and that sentence is just uncharacteristically badly worded unless you accept he just wanted to shoehorn «wise» in there. ;o)

It's likely, I'll grant. But everyone has typos occasionally.

Catharsis wrote:
I do wonder, though, whether Goblins and Gnomes are still both +Cha... I suspect yes, but we'll see. :)

I suspect so. We know Gnomes stayed the same (we've seen their Ancestry page), and Goblins would change to what? Int? That'd make them way too mechanically similar to Elves.

Tholomyes wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if Half-human ancestries no longer have Floating bonuses (at least no more than the other non-human races), So I could see Half-orcs shoring up the 0 in the Str catagory

That's possible. I personally suspect that Half Orcs and Half Elves will still have two floating bonuses like Humans, but it's quite possible for me to be wrong. We'll see.

Tholomyes wrote:
I'd suspect Goblins to maybe shift, but TBH, I don't know how. Goblins don't seem right for +Cha (at least automatically), but I don't think Wis or Int work much better, and at least so far they're sticking with +2 Mental, +2 Physical, +2 Free, -2 Something.

Yeah, I suspect they might violate that pattern for an Ancestry particularly known for great warriors (I wouldn't be at all shocked to see Str/Con Orcs or Dex/Con Hobgoblins)...but Goblins aren't gonna get two physical stats.

And I think Cha works fine. Goblins have forceful and vivid personalities, after all.

Liberty's Edge

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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Paladinosaur wrote:
Nice! Now if they just moved the dwarven stat flaw to Dex...

Unlikely. There's not nearly as much support for it and there are no other Cha penalty Ancestries making it feel like we're overloaded on them (as there were with Halflings being a Cha bonus Ancestry).

I'm not even sure it's a good idea, as it would make them worse at some Classes they should traditionally be good at (Fighter, most notably).

But it hurts them as Clerics and Paladins, their other two "classic" classes.


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Catharsis wrote:

We did it!

Whoooooooo! :D

I'm going to go out on a limb here and claim it was my limerick that tipped the balance.

The post says:

Mark Seifter wrote:

Well we've previewed Whirlwind Strike for fighter as well, so...

(then again, things have sometimes changed since the preview. For instance, fans of the halfling ancestry would find it wise if they check out the final playtest book for the new cool stuff)

This says nothing about Halflings getting a change from Charisma to Wisdom specifically. All it says is "new cool stuff." That could be anything, from new Ancestry feats, to other Ancestry benefits (such as their innate features). Sure, it could mean Wisdom instead of Charisma, but it's not definite.

Additionally, from the post Mr. Seifter quoted, nothing says Whirlwind Attack or Sudden Charge (which was originally in the Fighter preview) are now only Barbarian options. The more likely scenario is that certain Class feats are shared amongst multiple classes, or even that those are just General feats that they chose to preview as part of the class in the blog. Maybe Rangers and Paladins can also do some of those things?

It's too soon to say any specific changes have been made without further information that actually tells us this.

Liberty's Edge

Paladinosaur wrote:
But it hurts them as Clerics and Paladins, their other two "classic" classes.

It really doesn't hurt Cleric much. Cha is never gonna be their main stat anyway, and you can put your floating bonus into it and get up to a 14 if you want (and can manage a 10 even if you're chasing Str 16 + Wis 18).

Paladins are admittedly a bit trickier, but they don't really need max Cha either, and that being the case you can pretty readily build for Str 18, Cha 12 or Str 16, Cha 14, or something else like that.

I'd expect a Dwarf Paladin to have something like Str 16, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 14. That's a pretty decent stat lineup for a Paladin by all accounts.

Liberty's Edge

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
It's too soon to say any specific changes have been made without further information that actually tells us this.

I agree that it's too early to be definitive, but it's more likely than you're implying due to the following bit (which I've bolded for emphasis):

Mark Seifter wrote:

Well we've previewed Whirlwind Strike for fighter as well, so...

(then again, things have sometimes changed since the preview. For instance, fans of the halfling ancestry would find it wise if they check out the final playtest book for the new cool stuff)

That's...really weird grammar unless we're going to find that the Halfling is wise. A wise Halfling. One with Wisdom.

Now, it could be a typo or something, which is why I'm withholding final judgment, but this theory isn't out of nowhere.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:

It also more evenly distributes bonuses between the Ancestries to the following:

0 Str, 3 Dex, 2 Con, 1 Int, 2 Wis, 2 Cha

Still a bit heavy on Dex bonuses and low on Str bonuses, but that's unavoidable due to legacy issues.

I hope this is actually true. That seems likely, mind you, but I won't be sure until I see the playtest document.

A significant number of the Backgrounds we've seen give +2 to either strength or intelligence (with the other +2 being floating) right? I wonder if this is how they're addressed the asymmetry. After all it probably makes sense that things like strength and intelligence are more trained than inborn/cultural.


So, it it:

Gnomes: Int
Goblins: Cha
Halflings: Wis

?

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I don't know how you can read that post without a wink and a nudge.

Mark likes to hint and tease. And halflings changing to Wisdom happens to be an easily expressed change between previewed and playtest material to illustrate his point.

Liberty's Edge

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PossibleCabbage wrote:
A significant number of the Backgrounds we've seen give +2 to either strength or intelligence (with the other +2 being floating) right? I wonder if this is how they're addressed the asymmetry. After all it probably makes sense that things like strength and intelligence are more trained than inborn/cultural.

Actually, I did some math on this. The Background numbers are as follows:

6 Str, 7 Dex, 6 Con, 6 Int, 7 Wis, 6 Cha

So no, that favors Dex a bit as well. For whatever reason.

That's only the playtest Backgrounds, not the Adventure specific ones, but it remains pretty compelling.

Weather Report wrote:

So, it it:

Gnomes: Int
Goblins: Cha
Halflings: Wis

?

No. Gnomes remain Con/Cha. Which is very correct for Pathfinder's Gnomes (who are closely Fey affiliated).

Goblins could've been changed, but I doubt it. Halflings look likely to be Wis now, but I wouldn't bet money on it (I only bet on sure things).


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Halflings look likely to be Wis now, but I wouldn't bet money on it (I only bet on sure things).

Like Nicolette Sheridan?

Maybe Goblins should be Int, good with alchemy.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
A significant number of the Backgrounds we've seen give +2 to either strength or intelligence (with the other +2 being floating) right? I wonder if this is how they're addressed the asymmetry. After all it probably makes sense that things like strength and intelligence are more trained than inborn/cultural.

Actually, I did some math on this. The Background numbers are as follows:

6 Str, 7 Dex, 6 Con, 6 Int, 7 Wis, 6 Cha

So no, that favors Dex a bit as well. For whatever reason.

That's only the playtest Backgrounds, not the Adventure specific ones, but it remains pretty compelling.

In that case, it's probably that they're leaning into STR being very class specific.and I suppose the fact that most classes that want Strength aren't going to be disappointed by having extra AC, HP, Skills, Will Saves/Perception, or Resonance, but a Wizard or whatever won't be too worried about having Strength.


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Now if they just add kobolds, rat folk, kitsune / hengeyokai, orcs, and planetouched as well... :3


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
It's too soon to say any specific changes have been made without further information that actually tells us this.

I agree that it's too early to be definitive, but it's more likely than you're implying due to the following bit (which I've bolded for emphasis):

Mark Seifter wrote:

Well we've previewed Whirlwind Strike for fighter as well, so...

(then again, things have sometimes changed since the preview. For instance, fans of the halfling ancestry would find it wise if they check out the final playtest book for the new cool stuff)

That's...really weird grammar unless we're going to find that the Halfling is wise. A wise Halfling. One with Wisdom.

Now, it could be a typo or something, which is why I'm withholding final judgment, but this theory isn't out of nowhere.

Typo is doubtful considering the sentence structure, and it's not incorrect depending on the circumstances, but I'm of the opinion that it's still inconclusive. Possible, sure, but by no means does a coincidental sentence confirm this major change.

Liberty's Edge

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Typo is doubtful considering the sentence structure, and it's not incorrect depending on the circumstances, but I'm of the opinion that it's still inconclusive. Possible, sure, but by no means does a coincidental sentence confirm this major change.

I agree that it's inconclusive, but one of the things that I realized that inclines me to believe it is that it's not a major change in terms of either rules or formatting.

I mean, formatting-wise, it's a change of a single word in the whole book. From 'Charisma' to 'Wisdom' under the Halfling entry. That's it. That seems very plausible for them to change if they liked the idea.

And rules-wise I'm not sure it's a lot bigger. It's not like they have dozens of Halfling NPCs all of which they need to change or anything at this stage. What would they have had to change? Maybe Lem's Character Sheet if they had one? And because of the floating bonus, you can still have high Cha Halflings if you want them. No trouble at all.

Sovereign Court

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Possible, sure, but by no means does a coincidental sentence confirm this major change.

When it comes to Mark, there are no coincidences.

Scarab Sages

Also, Mark is very much aware of the enormous amount of support the Wisdom Halfling had on the forum, having participated in the discussion himself. It's quite unambiguous from an inside perspective. :)


Weather Report wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Halflings look likely to be Wis now, but I wouldn't bet money on it (I only bet on sure things).

Like Nicolette Sheridan?

Maybe Goblins should be Int, good with alchemy.

Smart goblins are a Warcraft thing. One of the defining character traits of Pathfinder goblins is their illiteracy (though I guess that might change in whatever Paizo does to make core goblins make sense).

I think the logical stat distribution for goblins is +dex/con -wis, though that is most likely dismissed as being too strong for martials since it'd make goblin the only race that can get a +2 to in all three physical stats.


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Arachnofiend wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Halflings look likely to be Wis now, but I wouldn't bet money on it (I only bet on sure things).

Like Nicolette Sheridan?

Maybe Goblins should be Int, good with alchemy.

Smart goblins are a Warcraft thing. One of the defining character traits of Pathfinder goblins is their illiteracy (though I guess that might change in whatever Paizo does to make core goblins make sense).

While that is the case in general, Pathfinder goblins are actually very clever. Their illiteracy is a choice born of superstition rather than a physical incapability. The default goblin statblock has 10 Int, and half the We Be Goblins pregens have a positive Int score. They're inclined towards crafting, two of their archetypes are for the alchemist, and if we fast forward to Starfinder, they frequently make laser pistols out of junk and gorram spaceships out of bathtubs and solar sails (that's not canon, but it's entirely fitting with Pathfinderverse gobbos). So, like, +Dex/Int -Wis is actually perfect for them.


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Arachnofiend wrote:
Smart goblins are a Warcraft thing.

If we're already changing them to be objectively non-awful, it seems a minor change to make them bright: Maybe they learned how to not suck from deportment leasons and stuck around for others.


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FedoraFerret wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Weather Report wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Halflings look likely to be Wis now, but I wouldn't bet money on it (I only bet on sure things).

Like Nicolette Sheridan?

Maybe Goblins should be Int, good with alchemy.

Smart goblins are a Warcraft thing. One of the defining character traits of Pathfinder goblins is their illiteracy (though I guess that might change in whatever Paizo does to make core goblins make sense).
While that is the case in general, Pathfinder goblins are actually very clever.

I agree. They are not scholarly by nature, nor particularly wise, but they have a low cunning at the very least.

Silver Crusade

I'm just here to claim credit as (I think) the first to point out this hint. :-P

(Of course, I might be wrong. But I was the first I knew of dang it!)

Anyway, kidding aside, I take this to be pretty unambiguous and I'm very excited for the change.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I was first to favorite the post. Does that count?


graystone wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Smart goblins are a Warcraft thing.
If we're already changing them to be objectively non-awful, it seems a minor change to make them bright: Maybe they learned how to not suck from deportment leasons and stuck around for others.

Gobbos have never been awful – they've been always looking to have fun, sing, burn stuff, etc. They are a very expressive race, so a CHA focus is welcome.

PF Gnomes also point towards CHA though.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Wise halfling would also explain how Frodo, Bilbo, even Smeagol (except for that critical failure at the beginning), resisted the lure of the One Ring for so long and far better than a measly human king

It's all about Will saves really

Scarab Sages

Don’t starfinder gnomes have an int boost? I’ve always liked into for gnomes and it would make everything fit together nicely. It’s not even that much of a stretch given gnomes’ affinity for crafting (and the new lore skill for narrow focus being int) and cleverness.


redpandamage wrote:
Don’t starfinder gnomes have an int boost? I’ve always liked into for gnomes and it would make everything fit together nicely. It’s not even that much of a stretch given gnomes’ affinity for crafting (and the new lore skill for narrow focus being int) and cleverness.

Starfinder Gnomes, can choose to be

feychildren which get a cha bonus or
a bleachling which gets an int bonus.

Exo-Guardians

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The Raven Black wrote:

Wise halfling would also explain how Frodo, Bilbo, even Smeagol (except for that critical failure at the beginning), resisted the lure of the One Ring for so long and far better than a measly human king

It's all about Will saves really

Memes aside Hobbits, unlike humans and other races, actually don't provide much in the way of emotions for the Ring to latch onto and tempt with. Many of them would be able to carry and even use the ring for a good while (See Samwise actively using the ring IN MORDOR OF ALL PLACES for several days on end to rescue Frodo and then easily being able to give it up) Many hobbits were content, with the world, with their lives, with the state of affairs, that is really why the Ring has such a hard time controlling them and tempting them. The ring simply can't reliably tempt someone with no desire to create sweeping change of some kind, again I point to the fact that Gardeners are held in such high esteem by Hobbits from the Shire. That sort of contentedness and good "Hobbit sense" is what really strikes me as wise, a good will save would just be a benefit.


The Raven Black wrote:

Wise halfling would also explain how Frodo, Bilbo, even Smeagol (except for that critical failure at the beginning), resisted the lure of the One Ring for so long and far better than a measly human king

It's all about Will saves really

I'm somewhat sure the one ring's allure is based on ambition, a thing most hobbitses have a distinct lack of. Dwarfs and human lords have a great deal of ambition, so they're vulnerable to the effects of the ring.


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Secret Wizard wrote:
Gobbos have never been awful

True... Awful may be stating it much too mildly. :P

Thier kind of 'expression' gets you put in an asylum for the criminally insane.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I see Wisdom as the ability to see reality as it truly is. I think the examples given by posters above fit this wisdom :-)

Exo-Guardians

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The Raven Black wrote:
I see Wisdom as the ability to see reality as it truly is. I think the examples given by posters above fit this wisdom :-)

Which is a good thing if we can all provide excellent context for a thing to be valid.

Now anyone want a mug of ale from the Dragon? I could go for a mug of ale. Maybe some fresh Taters and Rabbit stew as well.

Scarab Sages

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Joe M. wrote:
I'm just here to claim credit as (I think) the first to point out this hint. :-P

I checked the page following Mark's hint drop, as well as the last page in the thread (at the time), and found no response to it. The search function also turned up nothing under «Halfling Wisdom». Guess I should have read through the other ten pages after all. ;o)

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