Grappled, go Invisible, now Sneak Attack?


Rules Questions


If you get grappled, then turn invisible with a spell/magic item/ninja vanish. Then you attack your grappler, are your attacks against his flat footed AC since you're invisible? If you are a rogue/ninja or have Sneak Attack, do you get your Sneak attack damage on the attack?

The Grappled condition states, "If a grappled creature becomes invisible, through a spell or other ability, it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD to avoid being grappled, but receives no other benefit." Does that mean your invisible attacks wouldn't deny dexterity at all, so you wouldn't be able to Sneak attack? They can't see where the attack is coming from, but does that not matter with the Grappled condition?


Yes, grapple very clearly states "no other benefit" when you are grappled and invisible. Not only is the position of the invisible grappled person known, but they can't target freely to take advantage of a "vulnerable spot" for sneak attack.


Being invisible means they cannot tell where you will hit them or when. Will I head but you or stomp on your foot? You do not get flat footed, but you do deny dex.

As to no other benefit from grapple, that is true as far as the grapple is concerned. However, the invisible is a separate thing, so also gives benefits.

/cevah


Cevah wrote:

Being invisible means they cannot tell where you will hit them or when. Will I head but you or stomp on your foot? You do not get flat footed, but you do deny dex.

As to no other benefit from grapple, that is true as far as the grapple is concerned. However, the invisible is a separate thing, so also gives benefits.

/cevah

You're saying that the enemy is not denied it's Dex bonus to CMD because invisibility grants "no other benefits" as far as the grapple is concerned, but it is denied it's Dex bonus to AC along with every other benefit of invisibility, including 50% miss-chance from attacks made by the grappler?

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Also, invisibility never, ever makes a target flat-footed. Other abilities might, but invisibility cannot.


Did some reading. Opinion revised by facts. :-)

I think that the invisible one will not gain any defensive benefits like miss chance.

I still think that the dex denial will work, as that is a function of being unseen.

/cevah


That is like arguing that a blind creature with Tremorsense doesn't get a dex bonus to AC because it can't see the target. Being involved in the grapple means you have a fairly good idea where the invisible creature is and approximately what its doing, because its using the sense of touch. While it isn't perfect, you can definitely say that the grappler is giving the grappled their full attention, to the extent that the grappled couldn't possibly get in a sneak attack until they manage to free themselves.


Invisibility gives only the benefits specifically mentioned against grapple, the +2 bonus to avoid being grappled. Otherwise it doesn't do anything against a grappler.

Which would include not allowing for sneak attack or reducing the grappler's AC by denying dex.


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Meirril wrote:
That is like arguing that a blind creature with Tremorsense doesn't get a dex bonus to AC because it can't see the target.

Well, a blind creature with Tremorsense doesn't get Dex-to-AC against someone attacking it. It automatically knows which square the enemies are in, but it would still suffer 50% miss chance (Total Concealment) and all other penalties for being blind.

Tremorsense wrote:
A creature with tremorsense is sensitive to vibrations in the ground and can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground. Aquatic creatures with tremorsense can also sense the location of creatures moving through water. The ability’s range is specified in the creature’s descriptive text.

Tremorsense only allows you to pinpoint the location of creatures within your range.


Wonderstell wrote:


Tremorsense only allows you to pinpoint the location of creatures within your range.

If you want to argue that something beyond the range of Tremorsense has total concealment I'd agree.

If you want to argue that Tremorsense isn't good enough to target things within its range, I'd ask you what part of "pinpoint the location" sounds like anything in contact with the ground (or water) would have concealment? The targeting/non-targeting designation got dropped between 3.5 and Pathfinder, but Tremorsense was on the list of Targeting back then. I also think Tremorsense's description makes it fairly clear you know exactly where things are within the radius and you don't need to depend on a different sense to attack.


Since the Zhen Worm doesn't have a built in 50% miss chance because it's blind, I'm lead to believe that tremorsense is extremely precise in how it works. So, if you're in tremorsense range it can "see" you and if you're outside of that range, unless the creature has another method to perceive you then it doesn't know where you are.


Meirril wrote:
I also think Tremorsense's description makes it fairly clear you know exactly where things are within the radius /.../

Agreed. You know exactly where things/creatures are within the radius of your tremorsense.

But you don't know when your opponents are attacking, or how they're dodging. You simply know which square they are in.

****

Invisibility has an example of pinpointing the location of a creature, and you'd still suffer miss chance while doing so.

Special Abilities: Invisibility wrote:
A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Perception check. Even once a character has pinpointed the square that contains an invisible creature, the creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance). There are a number of modifiers that can be applied to this DC if the invisible creature is moving or engaged in a noisy activity.

Blindsense also allows you to pinpoint the location of a creature, but it doesn't negate miss chance or grant you Dex-to-AC.

Blindsense wrote:
Using nonvisual senses, such as acute smell or hearing, a creature with blindsense notices things it cannot see. The creature usually does not need to make Perception checks to pinpoint the location of a creature within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent the creature cannot see still has total concealment against the creature with blindsense, and the creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.

****

LordKailas wrote:

Since the Zhen Worm doesn't have a built in 50% miss chance because it's blind, I'm lead to believe that tremorsense is extremely precise in how it works. So, if you're in tremorsense range it can "see" you and if you're outside of that range, unless the creature has another method to perceive you then it doesn't know where you are.

It also has Blind-Fight as a bonus feat, which allows it to reroll the miss chance.


Wonderstell wrote:
It also has Blind-Fight as a bonus feat, which allows it to reroll the miss chance.

Interesting, I missed this detail. This suggests that it does have to contend with concealment in some form. But I would think if it had a miss chance due to it's blindness it would be stated in the block that talks about the creature's blindness. Looking at the universal monster rules doesn't add any clarity since there is no entry for Blindness. There is the condition blinded, but that's not really the same since a creature gains that condition when it loses it's ability to "see" even if that vision is actually some sort of echolocation and they just got hit with a silence spell.

It really depends if you believe tremorsense should be treated as blindsense (as you described) or blindsight which works quite differently.

Blindsight wrote:

Some creatures possess blindsight, the extraordinary ability to use a non-visual sense (or a combination senses) to operate effectively without vision. Such senses may include sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation. This makes invisibility and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature (though it still can’t see ethereal creatures). This ability operates out to a range specified in the creature description.

*Blindsight never allows a creature to distinguish color or visual contrast. A creature cannot read with blindsight.
*Blindsight does not subject a creature to gaze attacks (even though darkvision does).
*Blinding attacks do not penalize creatures that use blindsight.
*Deafening attacks thwart blindsight if it relies on hearing.
*Blindsight works underwater but not in a vacuum.
*Blindsight negates displacement and blur effects.

When I look at the entry for invisibility it references blindsense, blindsight and even scent and how these abilities interact with it. Curiously, tremorsense isn't listed at all. Whats more, tremorsense doesn't specify if it acts as blindsense or blindsight. So, it's probably a DM call, if it should be treated as one or the other.


Tremorsense is treated as blindsense. "Pinpoint" in Pathfinder means "I know what square you're in".

Here is a quote from invisibility.

Quote:
Even once a character has pinpointed the square that contains an invisible creature, the creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance).


Also from ultimate intrigue

Quote:
Imprecise senses allow a creature to pinpoint the location of another creature, but they don’t allow for the use of targeted effects, and attacks against those creatures are subject to miss chances from concealment. A few examples of imprecise senses are hearing, scent, blindsense, and tremorsense.


wraithstrike wrote:

Also from ultimate intrigue

Quote:
Imprecise senses allow a creature to pinpoint the location of another creature, but they don’t allow for the use of targeted effects, and attacks against those creatures are subject to miss chances from concealment. A few examples of imprecise senses are hearing, scent, blindsense, and tremorsense.

Wow, UI has clarifications for all kinds of random things.

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