Do enhancement bonuses allow to cast spells of a higher level?


Rules Questions


For some reason, I have not been able to find this anywhere: Take Bob the 16th sorcerer with a 12 Charisma score. He cannot cast any spell of 3rd level or higher (does he know them, though? That is another question).

Now he gets a headband of charisma +6 and has an 18 Charisma score. Can he cast now spells up to 8th level, assuming he knows them? Or can he learn them now?

But to focus in the main doubt I have, let us suppose he gets the headband just two days before reaching 16th, so he levels up when the bonus granted by the headband is already permanent. Can he then learn and cast 8th level spells? That is, does the enhancement bonus from the headband allow the character to learn and cast spells of higher levels, if his/her class level would permit it?

My common sense says no, he can't. But Pathfinder is quite permissive regarding enhancement bonuses, as compared with D&D up to 3.5. I have a new player wanting to do (almost) exactly what I described, and I do not want to forbid it if RAW allow it.


Algunillo wrote:
He cannot cast any spell of 3rd level or higher (does he know them, though? That is another question).

He does.

Quote:
Now he gets a headband of charisma +6 and has an 18 Charisma score. Can he cast now spells up to 8th level

He'd need to rest first, but yes he can.

Quote:
he gets the headband just two days before reaching 16th, so he levels up when the bonus granted by the headband is already permanent. Can he then learn and cast 8th level spells?

He can.

Quote:
My common sense says no, he can't. But Pathfinder is quite permissive regarding enhancement bonuses

There's actually not much RAW on the subject, but (permanent) Charisma is Charisma. If Bob has it, he can flaunt it.


He does know them, since nothing contradicts the usual rule saying he gets to learn them.

An enhancement bonus suffices for him to cast the higher-level spells. It doesn't even have to be a permanent bonus; eagle's splendor would let him cast his spells up to 6th.

FAQ wrote:

Temporary Ability Score Increases vs. Permanent Ability Score Increases: Why do temporary bonuses only apply to some things?

Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bones would affect.

The purpose of the temporary ability score ruling is to make it so you don't have to rebuild your character every time you get a bull's strength or similar spell; it just summarizes the most common game effects relative to that ability score.

For example, most of the time when you get bull's strength, you're using it for combat, so the glossary mentions Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, Strength-based weapon damage rolls, CMB, and CMD. It doesn't call out melee attack rolls that use Dex instead of Str (such as when using Weapon Finesse) or situations where your applied Str bonus should be halved or multiplied (such as whith off-hand or two-handed weapons). You're usually not using the spell for a 1 min./level increase in your carrying capacity, so that isn't mentioned there, but the bonus should still apply to that, as well as to Strength checks to break down doors.

Think of it in the same way that a simple template has "quick rules" and "rebuild rules;" they're supposed to create monsters which are roughly equivalent in terms of stats, but the quick rules are a short cut that misses some details compared to using the rebuild rules. Likewise, the temporary ability score rule is intended as a short cut to speed up gameplay, not as the most precise way of applying the bonus.

A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does.


VRMH wrote:
Algunillo wrote:
Now he gets a headband of charisma +6 and has an 18 Charisma score. Can he cast now spells up to 8th level
He'd need to rest first, but yes he can.

Are you sure he needs to rest? It seems to me he gained his high-level spell slots when he last rested, even though he could only use them to cast lower-level spells.


He doesn't need to rest. He just has to wear the item for 24 hours so it becomes a permanent bonus. It just so happens that over 24 hours the character is likely to rest.


It should also be noted that if the character removes the headband they will lose all of those spell slots and won't be able to regain them until they put the item back on and wear it for another 24 hours. That's why as a spellcaster you want to avoid having to rely on magic items in this way.


wraithstrike wrote:
He doesn't need to rest. He just has to wear the item for 24 hours so it becomes a permanent bonus.

Where does it say that?

Serious question, because I think the above quoted FAQ inadvertently removed the indirect rule that only permanent bonuses count for bonus spells per day.

VRMH wrote:
Algunillo wrote:
He cannot cast any spell of 3rd level or higher (does he know them, though? That is another question).
He does.

Wrong. "To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level."

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
VRMH wrote:
Algunillo wrote:
Now he gets a headband of charisma +6 and has an 18 Charisma score. Can he cast now spells up to 8th level
He'd need to rest first, but yes he can.
Are you sure he needs to rest? It seems to me he gained his high-level spell slots when he last rested, even though he could only use them to cast lower-level spells.

I think he does, although it's not outright stated: "Each day, sorcerers and bards must focus their minds on the task of casting their spells. A sorcerer or bard needs 8 hours of rest (just like a wizard), after which she spends 15 minutes concentrating. (...) During this period, the sorcerer or bard readies her mind to cast her daily allotment of spells. Without such a period to refresh herself, the character does not regain the spell slots she used up the day before."

For the record, RAW, a divine spontaneous caster or an arcane spontaneous caster that isn't Sorc or Bard doesn't have this limitation.


It's in the glossary.

Here is a copy and paste:
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.


The reason that matters is that ability bonuses don't change your score until they become permanent. Until then they only change the modifier, and some things such as feats go off the actual score.


I don't think that's right, wraithstrike. I cannot find anything to substantiate the position that temporary ability score increases don't actually increase your ability score. And the FAQ quoted above pretty much blows that theory out of the water.

There is no meaningful difference between temporary and permanent increases to ability scores.


Algunillo wrote:
But to focus in the main doubt I have, let us suppose he gets the headband just two days before reaching 16th, so he levels up when the bonus granted by the headband is already permanent. Can he then learn and cast 8th level spells? That is, does the enhancement bonus from the headband allow the character to learn and cast spells of higher levels, if his/her class level would permit it?

The way I see it you can look at it a couple of ways.

1)The Spells Known are fixed, you pick the spells, weather you can cast them or not.

Sorcerer wrote:
Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.

2)As a nice GM, I would let the Sorcerer pick spells of a lower level inplace of the ones they can’t cast. Even though this quote is for Spell Slots not Spells Known.

Spell Slots wrote:
The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower levels.

When the Sorcerer gains the ability to cast higher spells, they can pick them, and switch out the ones they know when they can.

Sorcerer Spells wrote:
Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one she already knows.


dragonhunterq wrote:

I don't think that's right, wraithstrike. I cannot find anything to substantiate the position that temporary ability score increases don't actually increase your ability score. And the FAQ quoted above pretty much blows that theory out of the water.

There is no meaningful difference between temporary and permanent increases to ability scores.

That is not accurate.

Now that I'm home and I can copy and paste rules easier I can give more proof

Quote:

Ability Score Bonuses

Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.

That is just like ability damage which gives you a penalty for every 2 points of ability damage, but does not actually decrease your ability score except in reverse of course.

It says that you only get the bonuses because you the score does not actually change.

In addition here is a partial requote from my previous post.

Quote:
Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours.

Now if the temporary score does the increasing then what is the point of that line?

To me if the permanent bonus gives an actual increase then it is saying the temporary bonus does not.

In addition if you go to the FAQ on the topic it only refers to you getting the bonus increase from the temporary bonus. It never says anything about an actual increase in your score.

So in a game it would be like this.

If you have a score of 14, and you get bear's endurance cast on you then your modifiers are treated as if you had an 18, but your actual score is still a 14.

So if you right a wraith and he drains you for 14 points of con then you die because you still only have 14 points of constitution.
-----------------------------------------------------

Maybe you're still not convinced.

So let's take this a little farther and compare the line from temporary ability score bonuses which says every 2 points grants a +1 bonus.

I'll repeat it here so you don't have to scroll back up.

Quote:


For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.

However the normal rules for modifiers changing says that the score has to become an even number for the ability modifier to change.

Now maybe you're going to say that all ability bonuses are going to be at least one because things such as belts or headbands always come in even numbers so there will never be a contradiction.

That simply isn't true, well it's not 100% accurate. Belts and headbands do tend to come in even numbers.

However the tomes which increase your score by granting an inherent bonus to your ability scores come in odd numbers.

So if I get a +1 tome, and my current ability score is a 15 that would make it a 16. Since the temporary ability score rules say I need 2 bonus ability points to get the +1 bonus do I get it or not?

Let's say you argue that since my score is a 16, and I don't have have to wait for it to become permanent then you're going against the temporary bonus rules.

The temporary and permanent bonus rules don't call out inherent(The type from tomes or manuals) as an exception to the rule, and the temporary rules don't say for "every 2 or....". They specifically call out that you need to have an increase of 2. That also lines up with how I said the rules works, and it gets around the issue of having to rebuild a character.

So let's take this farther and say you count the 1 point of ability score bonus from a source and say that it is a 16 and gives them a +3. In the same 24 hours they get another +1 bonus. Now they have gotten 2 temporary bonuses to the same score. By the temporary ability score rules that also grants a +1 to the modifier. Now you have a +1 modifier with only a score of 17.

Do you tell the player he can't have the 17? If so why not?

You can try to say he already got +1 at 16, but nothing says that the temporary ability score for getting 2 points can not be obtained because of a previous +1. Nothing also says that all bonuses must be gained at the exact same time.

I see no way to deny the player the 2nd +1 bonus. At best you have a contradiction in the rules that doesn't exist if you follow the book which says that the score actually changes after 24 hours.


"Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do."

Bonus spells is clearly something "relating to that ability score"!

Sorry to say it, but your argumentation would be totally fine, and would completely convince me, if that FAQ didn't exist. But it does, and it's amazingly encompassing. "anything" is not really a vague term.

Your entire argument also works against adjusting carrying capacity under a temporary strength bonus, and yet, the FAQ explicitly said that it changes. If temporary bonuses only affect modifiers and rolls and not the actual score, why does the carrying capacity, which is explicitly keyed off the strength score, change?

wraithstrike wrote:
Quote:
Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours.
Now if the temporary score does the increasing then what is the point of that line?

I say it lost its point when they released the FAQ.


Derklord wrote:

"Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do."

Bonus spells is clearly something "relating to that ability score"!

Sorry to say it, but your argumentation would be totally fine, and would completely convince me, if that FAQ didn't exist. But it does, and it's amazingly encompassing. "anything" is not really a vague term.

Your entire argument also works against adjusting carrying capacity under a temporary strength bonus, and yet, the FAQ explicitly said that it changes. If temporary bonuses only affect modifiers and rolls and not the actual score, why does the carrying capacity, which is explicitly keyed off the strength score, change?

wraithstrike wrote:
Quote:
Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours.
Now if the temporary score does the increasing then what is the point of that line?

I say it lost its point when they released the FAQ.

FAQ's don't override the core rules. That is not how they work. They explain them.

I noticed you didnt answer my question to explain how the rules work.


wraithstrike wrote:
FAQ's don't override the core rules. That is not how they work. They explain them.

This is objectively wrong.

Some FAQs even say that these are changes that will be reflected in future errata, but there are those that explicitly change things without such a note. Take for instance this FAQ:

Quote:

Sleep: What penalties happen if a character stays up all night without sleep?

­ ­ ­ ­The character is fatigued.

The CRB doesn't say this - it's a rule made by that FAQ.

But that's irrelevant, because the ability bonus FAQ doesn't actually break any part of the CRB*, apart from maybe making one single line of text pointless. So what, it can join the club of all the other stuff in the CRB that's redundant!

*) At least I think so. Can you quote any actual rule in the CRB that's no longer true if we apply the FAQ as it's written?

wraithstrike wrote:
I noticed you didnt answer my question to explain how the rules work.

Er, where did you say that? I'm not sure what you want me to explain.

Oh, and by the way: That "For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability." line is about all ability score increases, not just temporary ones - the stuff about temporary bonuses is a seperate sentence. Which makes that quoted sentence irrelevant when discussing the differences between temporary and permanent bonuses.


wraithstrike wrote:
FAQ's don't override the core rules. That is not how they work. They explain them.

Whatever you say, Horsebolt McStabledoor. ; )


Derklord wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
FAQ's don't override the core rules. That is not how they work. They explain them.

This is objectively wrong.

Some FAQs even say that these are changes that will be reflected in future errata, but there are those that explicitly change things without such a note. Take for instance this FAQ:

Quote:

Sleep: What penalties happen if a character stays up all night without sleep?

­ ­ ­ ­The character is fatigued.
The CRB doesn't say this - it's a rule made by that FAQ.

That is not a rules change. It is a rules clarification. The issue is the same issue with perception supposing to cost a move action to investigate a 10 foot square when looking for things such as hidden doors. Paizo didnt exactly write it into the book so nobody knew it.

So where did the rule come from? Well Paizo combined search and spot from 3.5. Many of the rules were written assuming people knew the 3.5 rules, and many things from 3.5 that are still supposed to apply didn't make print such as that move action perception rules. Yes, I am aware that it's annoying.

Quote:


But that's irrelevant, because the ability bonus FAQ doesn't actually break any part of the CRB*, apart from maybe making one single line of text pointless. So what, it can join the club of all the other stuff in the CRB that's redundant!

Actually the line is not pointless. The point of the 24 hour permanent rule is to stop people from swapping magic items that grant ability bonuses, and getting the full benefit.

Now I don't think it was common enough to make a rule for, and it should have never been made, but that is the rule, even if it's a bad rule.

Quote:


*) At least I think so. Can you quote any actual rule in the CRB that's no longer true if we apply the FAQ as it's written?.[\quote]

When rules are actually changed it is through errata. When game clarifications are done it is through the FAQ.

Paizo didn't call it out because they didn't think it was necessary, but when the PF 2 playtest starts I'll be sure to bring it up so they might put it on the new rules forum or in the FAQ section for it.

wraithstrike wrote:
I noticed you didnt answer my question to explain how the rules work.
Quote:
Er, where did you say that? I'm not sure what you want me to explain.

I was asking you how the rules works now the core rule book contradicting your version of the rule using the example I gave. You didn't give an answer. This post has the question

Quote:


Oh, and by the way: That "For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability." line is about all ability score increases, not just temporary ones - the stuff about temporary bonuses is a separate sentence. Which makes that quoted sentence irrelevant when discussing the differences between temporary and permanent bonuses.

That isn't true. It says

prd wrote:
Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.

It's all part of the opening section before it breaks down specific ability scores such as strength.

Then at the bottom it goes into permanent ability scores.


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The FAQ clearly states that the rules in the glossary were tight on space and should not be read in such a limiting manner. It also states equally clearly that the glossary was just a short list of the effects they felt would be the most pertinent as a shortcut, rather than needing a full rebuild.

The FAQ clarifies that there should be no meaningful difference between temporary ability score increases and permanent ones.


wraithstrike wrote:
Derklord wrote:
Quote:

Sleep: What penalties happen if a character stays up all night without sleep?

­ ­ ­ ­The character is fatigued.
The CRB doesn't say this - it's a rule made by that FAQ.
That is not a rules change. It is a rules clarification.

Stopped reading there. I literally searched the entire CRB for "sleep" and there are no (general) rules for it (only for sleeping in armor, and for spellcasters needing rest). That means the FAQ cannot be a clarification, because there's nothign in the rules to clarify.

The Exchange

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The whole "temporary/permanent" ability score increases is because of two thing: Spells and grabby rule mongering players.

You don't get to start casting 8th level spells if you just cast a 2nd level spell to up your INT /Cha / Wil more and it is only a temporary boost. Magic items granting benefits take "24 hours" to "work" to keep players from just handing items with "permanent bonuses" to another player IN GAME so they can then cast 8th level spells on the fly (ie. let's all share the circlet of vast intelligence when we need to cast higher level spells or make skill checks).


And the FAQ basically kicked that to the curb.

To throw a bone to the old-schoolers: A strained reading of the FAQ could interpret it as saying that "temporary ability score bonuses apply to anything related to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do" doesn't apply to spells per day because spells per day are keyed off of a character's ability score, not the character's bonus to said score.

...Hey, I said it was a strained reading.


dragonhunterq wrote:

The FAQ clearly states that the rules in the glossary were tight on space and should not be read in such a limiting manner. It also states equally clearly that the glossary was just a short list of the effects they felt would be the most pertinent as a shortcut, rather than needing a full rebuild.

The FAQ clarifies that there should be no meaningful difference between temporary ability score increases and permanent ones.

So there was to be no difference yet they actually said you had to wait 24 hours to get an actual ability score change, their words, not mine.

I'm not buying it. They could have just not made temporary and permanent ability scores at all if that was the case.

Why make a category that does not matter, and actually takes up more wordspace than not having it?


Derklord wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Derklord wrote:
Quote:

Sleep: What penalties happen if a character stays up all night without sleep?

­ ­ ­ ­The character is fatigued.
The CRB doesn't say this - it's a rule made by that FAQ.
That is not a rules change. It is a rules clarification.
Stopped reading there. I literally searched the entire CRB for "sleep" and there are no (general) rules for it (only for sleeping in armor, and for spellcasters needing rest). That means the FAQ cannot be a clarification, because there's nothign in the rules to clarify.

You still didnt answer the questions in my other post. You avoiding the question makes it seem like you're wrong, but don't want to admit it.


maouse33 wrote:

The whole "temporary/permanent" ability score increases is because of two thing: Spells and grabby rule mongering players.

You don't get to start casting 8th level spells if you just cast a 2nd level spell to up your INT /Cha / Wil more and it is only a temporary boost. Magic items granting benefits take "24 hours" to "work" to keep players from just handing items with "permanent bonuses" to another player IN GAME so they can then cast 8th level spells on the fly (ie. let's all share the circlet of vast intelligence when we need to cast higher level spells or make skill checks).

That's exactly what I'm trying to tell them. One of the devs even said this at one point. I personally think the rule wasn't needed, but it still exist.


wraithstrike wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:

The FAQ clearly states that the rules in the glossary were tight on space and should not be read in such a limiting manner. It also states equally clearly that the glossary was just a short list of the effects they felt would be the most pertinent as a shortcut, rather than needing a full rebuild.

The FAQ clarifies that there should be no meaningful difference between temporary ability score increases and permanent ones.

So there was to be no difference yet they actually said you had to wait 24 hours to get an actual ability score change, their words, not mine.

I'm not buying it. They could have just not made temporary and permanent ability scores at all if that was the case.

Why make a category that does not matter, and actually takes up more wordspace than not having it?

Because originally it was an attempt to make things simpler, similar to how simple templates have quick rules and rebuild rules--the two are not equivalent, but they're close enough for most purposes. Like many such attempts by Paizo, it ended up making things more complicated, so they abandoned it.

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