Option incompatibilities that bug you?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion


Dragon Shaman Druids can't pick the Dragon subdomain. I know why this is (the domain and its subdomain came way latter), but it made me wonder if anyone knew of similar oddities like this.


Similarly storm druids and the lightning subdomain. Don't let it bug you though, that sort of minor stuff is exactly what a GM with their own mind is for.


I wanted the Staff Magus and Kensai archetypes to stack so I could pose as an unarmoured wizard holding a staff. When someone tries to beat the wizard in melee he busts out some sweet magus moves.


The Catfolk's racial monk archetype, Nimble Guardian, can't be combined with Sacred Fiat Archetype. Same goes for the new Menhir Guardian and Sacred Fist which could have been awesome for a more basic dragon build.


I find the Venom Siphoner and Veneficus Witch being incompatible archetypes mildly annoying. Similarly since both the the Winter Witch archetype and Season Witch (winter) archetype both modify the patron they’re technically incompatible despite being able to have the same patron.

Dark Archive

MrCharisma wrote:
I wanted the Staff Magus and Kensai archetypes to stack so I could pose as an unarmoured wizard holding a staff. When someone tries to beat the wizard in melee he busts out some sweet magus moves.

Black Blade and Staff Magus for me.


The inability of kitsune to physically attack with their tail, especially since a human with a pile of feats sunk into it can (RH kitsune, magical tail to get a tail, RH kobold, tail terror to hit people with it.)

Sovereign Court

Well that doesn't work as you cannot take racial heritage twice as there is no special condition allowing you to do so.


Pathfinder Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

What you have to do is start out as a kitsune, take the Human Guise feat to count as human, then the Racial Heritage (Kobold) feat to count as a kobold, then the Tail Terror feat to be able to attack with your tail. Of course, that is a lot of trouble to go to for a secondary natural attack.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

So many...

Stalker Vigilante's Hidden Strike not counting as Sneak Attack for feat prerequisites for one...


David knott 242 wrote:

What you have to do is start out as a kitsune, take the Human Guise feat to count as human, then the Racial Heritage (Kobold) feat to count as a kobold, then the Tail Terror feat to be able to attack with your tail. Of course, that is a lot of trouble to go to for a secondary natural attack.

What kitsune would be so barbaric as to attack with their own tail?


My first kitsune character was a bloodrager into dragon disciple. They'd probably go for the tail slap if they could fit it in.


I understand why they did this, but - You can't multi-class Paladin/Barbarian due to alignment restrictions. Thematically this kind-of makes sense until you read all the material out there about "re-flavouring rage". But mechanically this stops you picking up the Fatigue Mercy and rage-cycling from character-level 4 onward (the ability to ignore post-rage-fatigue is a level 17 Barbarian ability).
Except ever since the release of the Bloodrager class this has kind of been a moot point. You can absolutely have a Rage-cycling Paladin if you dip into Bloodrager instead of Barbarian.


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Quite a number of archetype incompatibilities are annoying (especially with the FAQ making the rules for archetype compatibility extremely strict). But here are some that take the cake:

Individual: Eldritch Scion and Elemental Knight Magus archetypes. Both of these seem made for Suli, but you can't use them with each other.

Group: Unchained Monk can't use most of the pre-Unchained Monk archetypes.


The heck with paladin; it's all the chained-monk builds who can't stack with barbarian that are irksome. Lordy knows the poor schmucks need hitpoints and attack-bonus at low level.


Druid archetypes don't stack nicely. There almost always trade away venom immunity, and many modify wild shape. No plains druid + lion shaman, and the fancy reincarnated druid can't be combined with pretty much anything...


UnArcaneElection wrote:
Group: Unchained Monk can't use most of the pre-Unchained Monk archetypes.

This annoyed us so much that we homebrewed a "hybrid" monk that falls somewhere in between core monk and unchained monk - reinstates all of the original ki powers at their original levels, reinstates the all good saves, keeps the d10 HD and full BAB, and implements a significantly-reduced number of the new style strikes and ki powers.


<Ackbar> Unchained Monk is a trap! </Ackbar>

...You get that sexy BAB (which only makes a difference when you're not flurrying), but forfeit "strong" will saves, can no longer spend Ki for extra attacks with weapons other than unarmed strikes, and half your class bennies are nerfed into requiring Ki to activate rather than being automatic.

(2hPA temple sword chained monks were OPAF, which is why the class was nerf-hammered.)


SheepishEidolon wrote:
Druid archetypes don't stack nicely. There almost always trade away venom immunity, and many modify wild shape. No plains druid + lion shaman, and the fancy reincarnated druid can't be combined with pretty much anything...

Likewise, an overwhelmingly high fraction of Rogue archetype trade out Trapfinding.


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The strangler archetype for brawlers has issues.

To start with taking the archetype actually makes it harder to qualify for the strangler feat because not only does it not actually give you sneak attack (so you still have to pick that requirement up from another place), but it trades away unarmed strike for said fake sneak attack, forcing you to pick that up from another place as well.

Additionally, the only reason it doesn't stack with the snakebite striker archetype, is because strangler adds stealth as a class skill, something that snakebite striker also does.


^Oh yeah, I forgot about Strangler Brawler. This archetype seems to have pieces missing. I guess one of the worst option incompatibilities is when an option is incompatible with itself . . . and Strangler Brawler is an example of this.


MrCharisma wrote:

I understand why they did this, but - You can't multi-class Paladin/Barbarian due to alignment restrictions. Thematically this kind-of makes sense until you read all the material out there about "re-flavouring rage". But mechanically this stops you picking up the Fatigue Mercy and rage-cycling from character-level 4 onward (the ability to ignore post-rage-fatigue is a level 17 Barbarian ability).

Except ever since the release of the Bloodrager class this has kind of been a moot point. You can absolutely have a Rage-cycling Paladin if you dip into Bloodrager instead of Barbarian.

no paladin/barbarian...how about paladin/Ulfen Guard?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

For me it's the inability to easily combine the down time business rules with the kingdom building rules.

It's kind of hard to argue that there's no bank in the kingdom, just because the PC's didn't spend 28 BP on it, but DID spend 1,570gp to start a banking business.

Problem is that if you did allow a player's banking business to affect things at the kingdom level, no one would ever spend the much more costly BP.

I can't believe the game developers wrote the rules at the same time, published them in the same book, and didn't think to create a balanced connection/overlap between these two rule systems.


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Eldritch scoundrel rogue grants wizard spells up to level 6

Sylvan trickster rogue gives you some witch hexes

I wish so, so badly that I could have it both ways.


Jiang-shi can't take the Agile Tongue feat. Their complete non-interaction with the jumping rules in acrobatics is pretty weird too.


Zolanoteph wrote:

Eldritch scoundrel rogue grants wizard spells up to level 6

Sylvan trickster rogue gives you some witch hexes

I wish so, so badly that I could have it both ways.

I hate how easily the two can stack, since they both change different aspects of Rogue Talents and Uncanny Dodge.

>Half Talent progression, gaining Rogue Talents, Ninja Tricks, or Witch Hexes
>Resist Nature's Lure and Fey Resistance are Rogue Talents you can pick up at 4th/12th.


Trying to run 2 bardic buffs simultaneously. Not just the masterpieces eating into more valuable feats and spells (and still arguably not being able to run with a performance), but the various performances (that you would actually use, anyway) nearly always being exclusive.


SorrySleeping wrote:
Zolanoteph wrote:

Eldritch scoundrel rogue grants wizard spells up to level 6

Sylvan trickster rogue gives you some witch hexes

I wish so, so badly that I could have it both ways.

I hate how easily the two can stack, since they both change different aspects of Rogue Talents and Uncanny Dodge.

>Half Talent progression, gaining Rogue Talents, Ninja Tricks, or Witch Hexes
>Resist Nature's Lure and Fey Resistance are Rogue Talents you can pick up at 4th/12th.

Pretty annoying. I hate to be a whiny forum sissyboy but it's true that rogues don't get many nice things.


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My biggest incompatibility annoyance is Wildshape specific feats not working with other polymorph effects like spells or natural shape shifting. This extends to the differentiation between unarmed attacks and natural weapons.

I'm also not a fan of abilities that are identical in everything but name that can't be treated as one another for the purpose of prerequisites.

There are also some archetypes that trade out a major class defining feature that take some additional things with them. You can't just change a cavalier's mount out for a different type of mount and alter things that wouldn't work with the new mount, you instead have a bunch of other weird minor changes to keep track of as well that may block you from achieving your goal without dipping out again to regain lost abilities.

Kineticist incompatibility with spell casting and martial character options is also a big pain. They seem to be locked out of multiclassing and have very little feat support.


There's a few I hate. Some bard healing archtypes not stacking, witch too.

But without a doubt the one that grinds on me the most is invulnerable rager not being able to take improved damage reduction. Because "reasons".


Cavall wrote:

There's a few I hate. Some bard healing archtypes not stacking, witch too.

But without a doubt the one that grinds on me the most is invulnerable rager not being able to take improved damage reduction. Because "reasons".

Why can't an Invulnerable Rager take Increased Damage Reduction?

LINK FOR REFERENCE


MrCharisma wrote:
Cavall wrote:

There's a few I hate. Some bard healing archtypes not stacking, witch too.

But without a doubt the one that grinds on me the most is invulnerable rager not being able to take improved damage reduction. Because "reasons".

Why can't an Invulnerable Rager take Increased Damage Reduction?

LINK FOR REFERENCE

Because gaining damage reduction from "invulnerability" isn't the same as "damage reduction", apparently :/


Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
MrCharisma wrote:
Cavall wrote:

There's a few I hate. Some bard healing archtypes not stacking, witch too.

But without a doubt the one that grinds on me the most is invulnerable rager not being able to take improved damage reduction. Because "reasons".

Why can't an Invulnerable Rager take Increased Damage Reduction?

LINK FOR REFERENCE
Because gaining damage reduction from "invulnerability" isn't the same as "damage reduction", apparently :/

Well then, that IS dumb. (That FAQ also seems like it directly contradicts both RAI and RAW, so I say Phoey to them!)

EDIT: I'm just gonna put


clearly as dumb as was turning the Orc Scarred Shaman witch archetype INt based in an errata when the class was obviously made to be Con SAD, in the "corrected" state, it's MAD and virtually unplayable.


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It'd be nice if the Sword Saint could vital strike their iaijutsu strike, even if it required a feat to do.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Class Deck, Maps Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:

For me it's the inability to easily combine the down time business rules with the kingdom building rules.

It's kind of hard to argue that there's no bank in the kingdom, just because the PC's didn't spend 28 BP on it, but DID spend 1,570gp to start a banking business.

Problem is that if you did allow a player's banking business to affect things at the kingdom level, no one would ever spend the much more costly BP.

I can't believe the game developers wrote the rules at the same time, published them in the same book, and didn't think to create a balanced connection/overlap between these two rule systems.

Actually they didn't.

The Kingdom rules came out in the Kingmaker AP about a year earlier.


Klorox wrote:
clearly as dumb as was turning the Orc Scarred Shaman witch archetype INt based in an errata when the class was obviously made to be Con SAD, in the "corrected" state, it's MAD and virtually unplayable.

Scarred Witch Doctor is worse than that -- it killed some interesting Orc Scarred Witch Doctor gish builds, but it made otherwise conventional Half-Orc Scarred Witch Doctor builds super-powered. Didn't they remember that Half-Orcs can put their +2 anywhere?


I remember it, but I don't really get your meaning. could you please amplify? I mean, sure, a 1/2Orc can add to his Int as easily as to his CON... but I'm thinking of conventional full Orcs who are penalized in INt (and have no Con Bonus).


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The problem is this ability:

Fierce Intelligence: A scarred witch doctor treats her Intelligence score as 2 points higher when determining the highest level of spells she can cast, the number of spells she can cast per day, her spell save DCs, her number of spells known at 1st level, and any effects of her hexes determined by her Intelligence.

Give that to a character with a racial int bonus, like a half orc.


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To help the full orcs the revised scarred witch doctor had a virtual +2 Int added to cancel out their Int penalty. However, a half-orc can have an Int bonus and gets the virtual +2 on top of that.

Ed: Ninja'd


well, bug the 'errata', they should have done that before they published ARG, because the Scarred Witch doctor works perfectly well as oroginally published, and the new version is... well, it never felt right to me.

Yeah, I know, I may have been contaminated by D&D4 where many classes were mostly SAD on whatever main ability they were built around, so a CON based spelllcaster does not shock me anymore, but still there was something that felt right about the SWD drawing power from its sheer endurance... and if it had to be based on a mental ability, Wis or Char would feel more appropriate, don't ask me why, it's just that an orc class based on Int just feels dead wrong.


MrCharisma wrote:

I understand why they did this, but - You can't multi-class Paladin/Barbarian due to alignment restrictions. Thematically this kind-of makes sense until you read all the material out there about "re-flavouring rage". But mechanically this stops you picking up the Fatigue Mercy and rage-cycling from character-level 4 onward (the ability to ignore post-rage-fatigue is a level 17 Barbarian ability).

Except ever since the release of the Bloodrager class this has kind of been a moot point. You can absolutely have a Rage-cycling Paladin if you dip into Bloodrager instead of Barbarian.

You can't get the fatigue mercy for a multiclass pali/barb, but it IS possible to multiclass as a paladin and a barbarian, or pali/anything outside of it's alignment restrictions. Introducing the Vindictive Bastard It's not the greatest, but hey it's a way to get some of yer pally powers back if you ever fall!


Well, on the one hand I'm glad for the latest Archives of Nethys update, but on the other hand, I just learned of a new really annoying option incompatibility: The Dwarven Bard archetypes Dwarven Scholar and Stonesinger are incompatible.


I really want to make a brawler / dwarven scholar after reading that.

Dark Archive

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avr wrote:

To help the full orcs the revised scarred witch doctor had a virtual +2 Int added to cancel out their Int penalty. However, a half-orc can have an Int bonus and gets the virtual +2 on top of that.

Ed: Ninja'd

This applies to a few Tiefling sub-races as well, who get Tiefling Sorcery, meant to offset the penalties of a standard Tieflings Charisma penalty, and yet, in some cases, have no such penalty, or even have a Charisma *bonus.*

That said, it's hardly an egregious power-combo, IMO.


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+2 charisma and +2 charisma for purpose of sorcerer is also done by Ifriti out of the box. It's all they are useful for.


deuxhero wrote:
+2 charisma and +2 charisma for purpose of sorcerer is also done by Ifriti out of the box. It's all they are useful for.

Fiery Glare has its uses.

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