Kineticist: Telekinetic Haul question


Rules Questions


All right, this is a simple mechanical question about how this ability might be used outside it's listed rules. Specifically, it's about damage from falling objects.

Say I have a level 5 Kineticist with Aether and Telekinetic Haul and Extended Range. Therefore, he could lift a 500lb object, move it 30ft per round, and move it as far away as 150ft (100+10lvl), right?

So let's say I lift a boulder (A cursory search of size of stones per pound tells me that would almost definitely be small sized, at most), and bring it straight up to my highest height, let it go, and it strikes someone on the head after falling 150ft. Will it deal...Zero damage? Blast damage? Will it deal 4d6 damage(the damage of a small object falling 150ft)?

More specifically, it can be said that, rules as written, it will do damage either as a blast or as a "Thrown object" thrown by you, but using CON not STR, if any at all. But since it's not, necessarily, an attack against someone or an activation of telekinetic blast, would there be any reason why environmental rules shouldn't apply in this case?


If you're letting gravity take its course, it'll deal falling object damage, same as if you'd lifted it by any other means and let it drop. But you'd probably do more damage by just, you know, shooting it at them with your blast. Seeing as it would take 5 rounds to get it that high and all.


Most of this is GM ruled stuff, but there are a few resources out there.
I use this chart, it comes recommended by James Jacobs.
http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD:Table_of_Creature_Size_and_Scale.
500 lbs is the beginning of large, so it's probably medium. You could use something less solid to make it bigger, but dropping 500lbs of feathers on someone shouldn't be more damaging than 500lbs of stone.

Your object is hard, so we get to use it's full damage, and we can refer to the falling objects chart to get a large object damage rate of 3d6. This doubles at 150ft, but with 150 being your max range you need to be less that max range unless you are dropping it on yourself. At level 6 you can hit the 150 mark at a range of 55 feet from your target. This will give you a 6d6 stone drop.

In order to hit with a dropped object, you need to make a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 20 feet. The rules don't give you info on how to determine range if you aren't at the location from which you are dropping the object, but it's safe to say that the distance the object is falling is the more important of the two in hitting your target. You'd be making this dropped object attack at a -12, it's ranged touch so maybe that's doable.

The stone isn't going to survive too many drops. I recommend carrying around a 55 gallon drum and filling it via create water when you need the drop trick. That's about 500lbs.

So we're going from a 2d6+2+con to 6d6 with a -12 to hit. I don't like it for anything other than a coup de grace. It's a fun trick to have available though.


Actually, at 5th level we're looking at 3d6 + 3 + 2 + Con mod at this point. All the more reason to focus on the blast.

That said, the lift-and-drop strategy works when you can lift an object that covers multiple squares. Maybe less damage, but it's the only way to really deal AoE as Aether.


I was just curious if it WOULD use falling object rules, and yes, after some cursory comparisons, it's never going to really be worth it unless it's very situational.


My mistake. Not only did I miss a dice, but I completely forgot about elemental overflow. Metakinesis is open at that level as well. At 6th level, when you could target someone other than yourself with the dropped object, you also have the +2 to 2 stats going on, so probably a +1 to hit and damage. Dropping something is buried at this point. 3d6+3+2+con and we can spend the burn needed to boost range for the dropped object on metakinesis making it 4d6+4+2+con and we're at the same range.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The main thing is that the object falling would likely catch more than one target, where the blast will only effect one target barring any infusions that would do otherwise.

I wouldn't put a touch attack on a falling object, but rather have the creatures make a Reflex save based on size and situation of the falling object (falling on a fortification wall vs. wide open area) and that would not be dependent on the kinetisist unless she tried to stealth the rock to position.


Aether blast doesn't target touch anyways, it's a physical blast.


Dropped objects are a touch attack. If the object is falling for some other reason, including being knocked over, it's a DC 15 reflex save. Obviously you'd change that based on the situation.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

On extreme cases I would up the reflex DC, like being on top of a city wall and having limited avanues of escape. Dropping a rock from up high is like hitting a square with a bomb, but once it starts to fall, the Kinetisist had no more control over it.

So, what are your thoughts on having a boulder or object being used to carry people/oneself, such as getting across a gully or body of water?


thaX wrote:
So, what are your thoughts on having a boulder or object being used to carry people/oneself, such as getting across a gully or body of water?

That depends on two separate questions:

1) What does it actually mean for an item to be "attended"?
The main intention of attended seems to be for use with saving throws. Does a boulder I'm standing on get to use my saving throw if it is attacked? If it gets to use my save, then I must be attending it.
quote 1: "attended (held, worn, grasped, or the like)"
quote 2: "An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character's saving throw bonus)."

Quote 2 is where the trouble comes in, because it labels an item being "touched" as being attended. But that leads to all kinds of odd circumstances, like the castle you are in getting to use your saves if someone casts a spell on it. I find it more reasonable for it to mean an item you are both touching and can meaningfully affect with your own strength, otherwise it is non-nonsensical for it to get your saving throw.

2) Does a spell's target matter once it is cast?
The idea that the spell would end once an item becomes attended is not actually supported anywhere in the rules. And ruling consistently this way would cause other unforeseen issues. For example, consider Haste's "Targets one creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart". So, does the haste spell end once its targets become more than 30 feet apart? I would hope not and it would make that extra 30 feet of movement it gives you a little insulting.

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So, my recommendation is that you can cast it on an object that is being touched, if the touched object can't be moved by the toucher; and that you can cast it on an item before it is touched and it will continue to function thereafter.

If you need another workaround, you can also use the container option:

Quote:
Additionally, you can create a container of entwined strands of aether in order to hold liquids or piles of small objects of the same weight.

So, just make a "container" of rocks and ride on that. Since this version effectively changes the target, the attended property no longer matters.


If the TK persists even after being interacted with by other people, that would make it impossible to recover an object once it's been picked up with magehand or similar effects.
I don't think that's the intent, but with the internet full of people trying to attack with mage hand, I can't find a single person who has tried to get their ball back from magehand.
If the only thing defeating magehand when you take back your ball is the fact that you weigh too much, then magehand is ending due to the spell exceeding one of its limitations after it has been cast.

I'd rule that you can't move people with the spell in any way unless it is being explicitly granted by the spell, or incidental due to the spell ending.


ErichAD wrote:
If the TK persists even after being interacted with by other people, that would make it impossible to recover an object once it's been picked up with magehand or similar effects.

Not really. You'd be able to grab and move the object normally during your turn, but it'd still have mage hand on it. And when the TK tries to move it again, you could choose to keep hanging on. The spell doesn't actually end until one of the spell ending conditions is met. For instance, carrying the object outside of the radius, "the spell ends if the distance between you and the object ever exceeds the spell's range". So, just grab your ball and run.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Also, one can spend burn to go from being 100 lbs a level to 1000 lbs a level for a round...


Melkiador wrote:
ErichAD wrote:
If the TK persists even after being interacted with by other people, that would make it impossible to recover an object once it's been picked up with magehand or similar effects.
Not really. You'd be able to grab and move the object normally during your turn, but it'd still have mage hand on it. And when the TK tries to move it again, you could choose to keep hanging on. The spell doesn't actually end until one of the spell ending conditions is met. For instance, carrying the object outside of the radius, "the spell ends if the distance between you and the object ever exceeds the spell's range". So, just grab your ball and run.

This interpretation has us stepping on the stone and moving it downward. If we require that the person acting on the stone be too heavy for the spell to lift in order to move it, then we're applying the spells limits after casting it.


ErichAD wrote:
This interpretation has us stepping on the stone and moving it downward. If we require that the person acting on the stone be too heavy for the spell to lift in order to move it, then we're applying the spells limits after casting it.

I never actually said to apply the spell's target limits after you cast it. But you'd have to do such with Basic TK, because it adds additional text, "This ability is similar to mage hand, except you can move an object that weighs up to 5 pounds per 2 kineticist levels you possess (minimum 5 pounds), and you can move magical objects." That text doesn't just say to change the target, but instead imposes a new limit on how heavy the object can be when you move it.

You could even say that Basic TK already removes the attended limitation, because they don't mention it in that text. "You can move an object", not "You can move an unattended object".


thaX wrote:
Also, one can spend burn to go from being 100 lbs a level to 1000 lbs a level for a round...

Minute per level, not one round.


I had an aetherkineticist in Giantslayer tread into this territory some time ago.

They decided they didn't want to stay in the water of the swamp when the hydra showed up, so up went the boat. And later flying around on a large portcullis, and a few boulder-copters.

We just went with it, but we did add the weight of any occupants to the weight of the TK. Which usually meant he had to toss a point of burn, but that felt fair for a short period of sky-taxi service. And it was cool and fun, so there's that. Also sped up game since it removed the inevitable "how do we get up there with our various climb checks" issue, also a plus.


"You could even say that Basic TK already removes the attended limitation, because they don't mention it in that text. "You can move an object", not "You can move an unattended object".

Good Catch, yes it does say:
"
This ability is similar to mage hand, except you can move an object that weighs up to 5 pounds per 2 kineticist levels you possess (minimum 5 pounds), and you can move magical objects.
"
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Is there any official ruling, since trying to lift a carriage and failing because there is a fly landed there... sounds like a terrible spell. Its not just a level zero spell it's a level zero a level 1 with finesse and possibly one class. Since i am pure aether.

or do you want to have a GM telling you there is a bacteria in the carriage?....

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Or do you want me to lift the chassis of the wagon.... if i am inside of the wagon i am not attending it. Or can i be doing ski with a rope behind it.... i am attach to the rope not the wagon.

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Is there any official ruling?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I believe attended means holding or carrying, not standing on. Powers like Foe Throw and the adjusted "fly" from fire are indicative of lifting and effecting others and one self, so floating on a big rock ala Magneto isn't far off the mark.


I could swear I replied to this thread before? Ah well, anyways.

Basic TK changes mage hand from working on 1 object (magical or not) to working on one group of objects. If you add more objects after the group has been defined, the spell should fail. Just like mage hand would fail if anyone stacked a second object on top of the one your lifting because the target is no longer valid for the spell. If the GM wanted to be flexible he could allow additional objects to be added after the fact as long as the weight limit wasn't exceeded, but that goes beyond a strict interpretation according to the wording.

Also the only part that was changed was how much (weight and number of objects), and if the target can be magical. Nothing was said about attended object or not so that should still be as Mage Hand. Especially considering that nothing was said if anyone wanted to stop said floating object, if the initial ruling for Mage Hand was changed in regards to attended object then something would need to be added. Not saying something implies that it remains the same.

Also vermin don't count for an object being 'attended'. Animals can attend an object, so birds could mess up a rock delivery service.

There is are several higher level power that lets you move creatures. Trying to get that early through TK haul isn't appropriate.


Spells don’t fail if their target changes, though. Target is only checked during the casting of a spell.

And the point is that it was changed from unattended object in the base spell to “an object” for basic TK. It’s the same kind of text savings that got us things like investigators needing umd to use wands of their extracts.


Melkiador wrote:

Spells don’t fail if their target changes, though. Target is only checked during the casting of a spell.

And the point is that it was changed from unattended object in the base spell to “an object” for basic TK. It’s the same kind of text savings that got us things like investigators needing umd to use wands of their extracts.

If you go with that interpretation then you can use mage hand to lift a steel hook that weighs less than 5 lbs, move the hook to a cargo net and lift the net plus everything in it, including yourself for as long as you wish to concentrate. After all, you only check the targeting conditions when the spell is cast, and the only weight allowance on the spell is in the target, it isn't mentioned anywhere in the spell's description.

So, I sincerely hope you all realize how ridiculous that is and you check to see if the spell has a valid target for the entire duration. Once the target ceases to be valid, the spell ends. The only point I think requires interpretation is if you can alter the spell's target within its own parameters while you are directing it but after its been activated. I tend to say no.


Melkiador wrote:

Spells don’t fail if their target changes, though. Target is only checked during the casting of a spell.

And the point is that it was changed from unattended object in the base spell to “an object” for basic TK. It’s the same kind of text savings that got us things like investigators needing umd to use wands of their extracts.

Also
Basic Telekinesis wrote:
This ability is similar to mage hand, except you can move an object that weighs up to 5 pounds per 2 kineticist levels you possess (minimum 5 pounds), and you can move magical objects.

So if Basic Telekinesis works as you describe they said "similar to mage hand" instead of just saying "you can move it 15' per round" because its the only part of the spell description they don't go on to mention? While we both agree that the "one unattended object up to 5 lbs" has been expanded to "a collection of objects up to the spell's maximum allowed weight" it doesn't say anything about removing the 'unattended' part.

It also doesn't talk about saving throws, strength, DCs or anything that would be needed if the Kinetisist decided to grab someone's weapon during combat and haul it up 15'. The weight limit is within tolerance, so I should be able to disarm anyone without a save, to hit, or a shred of decency, right? Maybe it doesn't talk about any of these cases because the ability fails if you try to lift an attended object?


with finesse kinetic you are allowed to use sleight of hand, so can a person pick pocket someone.

and by the way the master of tk, a pure aether... will never be able to move a friend or a foe... however a generalist of a wizard, or a peasant with a tk ring will... sounds a bit strange.

If you consider that the exeption can alter the target of a object being magical can be logical that the other target is also change. and substituted.

until now the most logic solution is:

if it requires a save it will fail, if it does not you can try to lift.
and recheck the target if it changes...

and the unattended object is consider a non wearable or using object.


KyraPelicano wrote:

with finesse kinetic you are allowed to use sleight of hand, so can a person pick pocket someone.

and by the way the master of tk, a pure aether... will never be able to move a friend or a foe... however a generalist of a wizard, or a peasant with a tk ring will... sounds a bit strange.

If you consider that the exeption can alter the target of a object being magical can be logical that the other target is also change. and substituted.

until now the most logic solution is:

if it requires a save it will fail, if it does not you can try to lift.
and recheck the target if it changes...

and the unattended object is consider a non wearable or using object.

An aether kineticist can take foe throw at 6th level, telekinetic maneuvers at 8th level and pushing infusion at 1st level. They certainly can move friends and foes.


And still no freedom as per tk spell, not even at level 7 or 8 or 9... will receive the same freedom. It's strange...

Maybe my gm will allow... who knows.
for the fun at least.

maybe i need to spend 75k to buy a ring like that...


Actually I was playing around with the idea of using Foe Throw on the party like a cheap version of dimension slide. You target melee types that want to position themselves on the battlefield, you choose to do the 'soft' version of your aether blast (1d4) and you intentionally 'miss' your target. Now your allies get to place themselves with in 30' of the target, standing, and ready to fight. If I remember correctly you could do this to a number of allies equal to your itterative attacks? Or maybe you had to shape your foe throw? Either way getting a fighter into position so they could start doing full round actions immediately seemed like a big deal to me.


love the that ideia.

and love the ideia of being able to lift 3 tons. and i lift a ton in mid air... a freaking canary touches the stone and collapses it over a castle... that standed for a 100 generations. and it's destroyed...

or being able to steal someone, push him back, slap it... throw him with a dragon, trip him.... lift a 3 tons... but cannot lift a person even at level 20 (without throwing him) or lift a 100 kg with a canary above it. but with a 1000 dead canaries you can.

conclusion: the soul of a creature waits a bilion tons... and when you specialize in TK pure aether, it's even worst because you dont have a single AOE, and a freaking ring is better then you.

so yes damn.
and there is no official errata to the class...


Yeah, its too bad you can't use Telekinetic Maneuvers to grab and then reposition someone (requires 2 standard actions). It is also too bad you can't use Telekinetic Globe to capture someone inside and then move them.

I mean other people can use them to do that, but KyraPelicano can't get over the fact that he can't use a 2nd level ability to give himself a version of Mass Fly (5th level). It actually takes longer for the Kinetisist to get it than a regular wizard, probably because the designer of the Kinetisist didn't think it was a good idea.


i can get over it, if there was a ability at level 7. or level 8 or even level 9.

it doesn't take longer... he is never able. that's the problem.

and yes a regular wizard no specialized in tk will have it.

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one last thing if a person is emerge in water, the water is liquid, not a object that is unattended, because it can even be attended . you can pick it up. even a 20 people. and fly at level 2.

"Additionally, you can create a container of entwined strands of aether in order to hold liquids or piles of small objects of the same weight. You can dip the container to pick up or drop a liquid as a move action. "

so like that since it has not specified. and not related to mage hand you can.


Meirril you right tk maneuvers and globe can... at least that.


by the way a tenser disk is level 1 i think. but who's counting


Meirril wrote:
Melkiador wrote:

Spells don’t fail if their target changes, though. Target is only checked during the casting of a spell.

And the point is that it was changed from unattended object in the base spell to “an object” for basic TK. It’s the same kind of text savings that got us things like investigators needing umd to use wands of their extracts.

If you go with that interpretation then you can use mage hand to lift a steel hook that weighs less than 5 lbs, move the hook to a cargo net and lift the net plus everything in it, including yourself for as long as you wish to concentrate. After all, you only check the targeting conditions when the spell is cast, and the only weight allowance on the spell is in the target, it isn't mentioned anywhere in the spell's description.

So, I sincerely hope you all realize how ridiculous that is and you check to see if the spell has a valid target for the entire duration. Once the target ceases to be valid, the spell ends. The only point I think requires interpretation is if you can alter the spell's target within its own parameters while you are directing it but after its been activated. I tend to say no.

It may be ridiculous, but it's the rules we currently have. If you don't like it, ask for a FAQ. Or houserule otherwise.


Meirril wrote:
Melkiador wrote:

Spells don’t fail if their target changes, though. Target is only checked during the casting of a spell.

And the point is that it was changed from unattended object in the base spell to “an object” for basic TK. It’s the same kind of text savings that got us things like investigators needing umd to use wands of their extracts.

Also
Basic Telekinesis wrote:
This ability is similar to mage hand, except you can move an object that weighs up to 5 pounds per 2 kineticist levels you possess (minimum 5 pounds), and you can move magical objects.

So if Basic Telekinesis works as you describe they said "similar to mage hand" instead of just saying "you can move it 15' per round" because its the only part of the spell description they don't go on to mention? While we both agree that the "one unattended object up to 5 lbs" has been expanded to "a collection of objects up to the spell's maximum allowed weight" it doesn't say anything about removing the 'unattended' part.

It also doesn't talk about saving throws, strength, DCs or anything that would be needed if the Kinetisist decided to grab someone's weapon during combat and haul it up 15'. The weight limit is within tolerance, so I should be able to disarm anyone without a save, to hit, or a shred of decency, right? Maybe it doesn't talk about any of these cases because the ability fails if you try to lift an attended object?

You can ask maybes, but the ability says what it says, and it says it works on an object, not an unattended object. I get that you don't like that, and it may indeed be an error, but it's what the rules say.


nice
Tx for your assistance.


People are not liquid or objects and can't be part of the liquid or small objects basic telekinesis option. Basic telekinesis specifically alters the "no magic items" aspect of the target, and the weight restriction, and adds the water net, but never mentions removing the attended object restriction.

Telekinetic finesse allows you to make sleight of hand checks. Basic telekinesis doesn't allow use on attended objects, but this isn't a problem. Attended objects are held, touched, or worn. You could pick a pocket, but you couldn't remove someone's necklace. You could do so with the tk maneuvers tk finesse interaction though.

Technically, telekinetic finesse makes no reference to basic telekinesis, so what it actually does is a bit ambiguous. Maybe you can make small objects invisible at short range, maybe you teleport weapons to hidden locations on your body. It's a mystery to everyone. If you want to argue for absurd powers, this is the way to go.

Telekinetic maneuvers is exactly telekinesis's combat maneuvers option. You can emulate the thrust option by using "many throw" and you aren't held back by worthless wizard base attack bonus. Many throw and tk haul work together to let you move 1000*lvl² pounds worth of objects. The telekinesis version of thrust limits you to a measly 375 pounds total. That's maybe 2 medium creatures with their gear and then the spell ends. Your extraordinarily wealthy commoner only needs to spend a standard action to turn the ring back on so it's not too bad, but that's two rounds to throw two dudes, same as using foe throw twice.

If you really want an aoe, then you can go elemental purist and take any of the aoe infusions that suit your fancy.

For the sustained force telekinesis option, the kineticist is far superior in weight moved and speed, but the inability to move attended objects if the attender fails a save is a bit annoying. I guess you need to throw them first.

I agree that aether kineticists should have access to floating disk and the ability to move attended objects contingent on a failed save.

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