Kineticist: Telekinetic Haul question


Rules Questions


All right, this is a simple mechanical question about how this ability might be used outside it's listed rules. Specifically, it's about damage from falling objects.

Say I have a level 5 Kineticist with Aether and Telekinetic Haul and Extended Range. Therefore, he could lift a 500lb object, move it 30ft per round, and move it as far away as 150ft (100+10lvl), right?

So let's say I lift a boulder (A cursory search of size of stones per pound tells me that would almost definitely be small sized, at most), and bring it straight up to my highest height, let it go, and it strikes someone on the head after falling 150ft. Will it deal...Zero damage? Blast damage? Will it deal 4d6 damage(the damage of a small object falling 150ft)?

More specifically, it can be said that, rules as written, it will do damage either as a blast or as a "Thrown object" thrown by you, but using CON not STR, if any at all. But since it's not, necessarily, an attack against someone or an activation of telekinetic blast, would there be any reason why environmental rules shouldn't apply in this case?


If you're letting gravity take its course, it'll deal falling object damage, same as if you'd lifted it by any other means and let it drop. But you'd probably do more damage by just, you know, shooting it at them with your blast. Seeing as it would take 5 rounds to get it that high and all.


Most of this is GM ruled stuff, but there are a few resources out there.
I use this chart, it comes recommended by James Jacobs.
http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD:Table_of_Creature_Size_and_Scale.
500 lbs is the beginning of large, so it's probably medium. You could use something less solid to make it bigger, but dropping 500lbs of feathers on someone shouldn't be more damaging than 500lbs of stone.

Your object is hard, so we get to use it's full damage, and we can refer to the falling objects chart to get a large object damage rate of 3d6. This doubles at 150ft, but with 150 being your max range you need to be less that max range unless you are dropping it on yourself. At level 6 you can hit the 150 mark at a range of 55 feet from your target. This will give you a 6d6 stone drop.

In order to hit with a dropped object, you need to make a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 20 feet. The rules don't give you info on how to determine range if you aren't at the location from which you are dropping the object, but it's safe to say that the distance the object is falling is the more important of the two in hitting your target. You'd be making this dropped object attack at a -12, it's ranged touch so maybe that's doable.

The stone isn't going to survive too many drops. I recommend carrying around a 55 gallon drum and filling it via create water when you need the drop trick. That's about 500lbs.

So we're going from a 2d6+2+con to 6d6 with a -12 to hit. I don't like it for anything other than a coup de grace. It's a fun trick to have available though.


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

Actually, at 5th level we're looking at 3d6 + 3 + 2 + Con mod at this point. All the more reason to focus on the blast.

That said, the lift-and-drop strategy works when you can lift an object that covers multiple squares. Maybe less damage, but it's the only way to really deal AoE as Aether.


I was just curious if it WOULD use falling object rules, and yes, after some cursory comparisons, it's never going to really be worth it unless it's very situational.


My mistake. Not only did I miss a dice, but I completely forgot about elemental overflow. Metakinesis is open at that level as well. At 6th level, when you could target someone other than yourself with the dropped object, you also have the +2 to 2 stats going on, so probably a +1 to hit and damage. Dropping something is buried at this point. 3d6+3+2+con and we can spend the burn needed to boost range for the dropped object on metakinesis making it 4d6+4+2+con and we're at the same range.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The main thing is that the object falling would likely catch more than one target, where the blast will only effect one target barring any infusions that would do otherwise.

I wouldn't put a touch attack on a falling object, but rather have the creatures make a Reflex save based on size and situation of the falling object (falling on a fortification wall vs. wide open area) and that would not be dependent on the kinetisist unless she tried to stealth the rock to position.


Aether blast doesn't target touch anyways, it's a physical blast.


Dropped objects are a touch attack. If the object is falling for some other reason, including being knocked over, it's a DC 15 reflex save. Obviously you'd change that based on the situation.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

On extreme cases I would up the reflex DC, like being on top of a city wall and having limited avanues of escape. Dropping a rock from up high is like hitting a square with a bomb, but once it starts to fall, the Kinetisist had no more control over it.

So, what are your thoughts on having a boulder or object being used to carry people/oneself, such as getting across a gully or body of water?


thaX wrote:
So, what are your thoughts on having a boulder or object being used to carry people/oneself, such as getting across a gully or body of water?

That depends on two separate questions:

1) What does it actually mean for an item to be "attended"?
The main intention of attended seems to be for use with saving throws. Does a boulder I'm standing on get to use my saving throw if it is attacked? If it gets to use my save, then I must be attending it.
quote 1: "attended (held, worn, grasped, or the like)"
quote 2: "An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character's saving throw bonus)."

Quote 2 is where the trouble comes in, because it labels an item being "touched" as being attended. But that leads to all kinds of odd circumstances, like the castle you are in getting to use your saves if someone casts a spell on it. I find it more reasonable for it to mean an item you are both touching and can meaningfully affect with your own strength, otherwise it is non-nonsensical for it to get your saving throw.

2) Does a spell's target matter once it is cast?
The idea that the spell would end once an item becomes attended is not actually supported anywhere in the rules. And ruling consistently this way would cause other unforeseen issues. For example, consider Haste's "Targets one creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart". So, does the haste spell end once its targets become more than 30 feet apart? I would hope not and it would make that extra 30 feet of movement it gives you a little insulting.

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So, my recommendation is that you can cast it on an object that is being touched, if the touched object can't be moved by the toucher; and that you can cast it on an item before it is touched and it will continue to function thereafter.

If you need another workaround, you can also use the container option:

Quote:
Additionally, you can create a container of entwined strands of aether in order to hold liquids or piles of small objects of the same weight.

So, just make a "container" of rocks and ride on that. Since this version effectively changes the target, the attended property no longer matters.


If the TK persists even after being interacted with by other people, that would make it impossible to recover an object once it's been picked up with magehand or similar effects.
I don't think that's the intent, but with the internet full of people trying to attack with mage hand, I can't find a single person who has tried to get their ball back from magehand.
If the only thing defeating magehand when you take back your ball is the fact that you weigh too much, then magehand is ending due to the spell exceeding one of its limitations after it has been cast.

I'd rule that you can't move people with the spell in any way unless it is being explicitly granted by the spell, or incidental due to the spell ending.


ErichAD wrote:
If the TK persists even after being interacted with by other people, that would make it impossible to recover an object once it's been picked up with magehand or similar effects.

Not really. You'd be able to grab and move the object normally during your turn, but it'd still have mage hand on it. And when the TK tries to move it again, you could choose to keep hanging on. The spell doesn't actually end until one of the spell ending conditions is met. For instance, carrying the object outside of the radius, "the spell ends if the distance between you and the object ever exceeds the spell's range". So, just grab your ball and run.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Also, one can spend burn to go from being 100 lbs a level to 1000 lbs a level for a round...


Melkiador wrote:
ErichAD wrote:
If the TK persists even after being interacted with by other people, that would make it impossible to recover an object once it's been picked up with magehand or similar effects.
Not really. You'd be able to grab and move the object normally during your turn, but it'd still have mage hand on it. And when the TK tries to move it again, you could choose to keep hanging on. The spell doesn't actually end until one of the spell ending conditions is met. For instance, carrying the object outside of the radius, "the spell ends if the distance between you and the object ever exceeds the spell's range". So, just grab your ball and run.

This interpretation has us stepping on the stone and moving it downward. If we require that the person acting on the stone be too heavy for the spell to lift in order to move it, then we're applying the spells limits after casting it.


ErichAD wrote:
This interpretation has us stepping on the stone and moving it downward. If we require that the person acting on the stone be too heavy for the spell to lift in order to move it, then we're applying the spells limits after casting it.

I never actually said to apply the spell's target limits after you cast it. But you'd have to do such with Basic TK, because it adds additional text, "This ability is similar to mage hand, except you can move an object that weighs up to 5 pounds per 2 kineticist levels you possess (minimum 5 pounds), and you can move magical objects." That text doesn't just say to change the target, but instead imposes a new limit on how heavy the object can be when you move it.

You could even say that Basic TK already removes the attended limitation, because they don't mention it in that text. "You can move an object", not "You can move an unattended object".


thaX wrote:
Also, one can spend burn to go from being 100 lbs a level to 1000 lbs a level for a round...

Minute per level, not one round.


I had an aetherkineticist in Giantslayer tread into this territory some time ago.

They decided they didn't want to stay in the water of the swamp when the hydra showed up, so up went the boat. And later flying around on a large portcullis, and a few boulder-copters.

We just went with it, but we did add the weight of any occupants to the weight of the TK. Which usually meant he had to toss a point of burn, but that felt fair for a short period of sky-taxi service. And it was cool and fun, so there's that. Also sped up game since it removed the inevitable "how do we get up there with our various climb checks" issue, also a plus.

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