I checked and the last time the idea of Intimidate being based on strength rather than Charisma was in 2008 during the pre-release discussion. Those threads had a lot of vitriol that I'd like to avoid so I will be clear in my opening post.
I am not saying that Charisma should not be used for intimidation. I can totally see how a forceful but physically weak person can be intimidating by using threats, coercion, and blackmail to name a few things.
I merely believe that this is a trained talent, something that is learned through training. Intimidation through flexing your muscles and threatening physical violence is much simpler and shouldn't cost a feat to it. In my mind, spending a feat on something represents training.
If the Mountain That Rides and Conan the Barbarian
It is my opinion that Intimidation should naturally be based on Strength with a feat/rogue talent/class feature that allows for Charisma to be issued instead or in tandem. Something like Intimidating Personality, for example.
Therefore I would like the forum's opinion on variant rules for those who want them in their games or maybe as a new rules supplement a la the Armor as DR system in UC.
Option 1. The system I mentioned earlier.
2. You choose at character creation which stat you want to base your Intimidation off of and therefore which feat you could take to add to that i.e. CHA as a base and Intimidating Prowess or STR as a base and Intimidating Personality as a feat.
3.As above except it's separated by class. Bards, Rogues, Inquisitor, Gunslinger, Sorcerer, and Witch get a CHA base whereas Barbarians, Cavaliers, Fighters, Monks, Magi, and Rangers get a STR with options to switch that around.
For example, a trait that allows Druids, Paladins, etc. to get it as a class skill and use Str. Alchemists, Summoners, Wizards, etc. would use a different trait to get CHA Intimidate as a class skill. Thug archetyped Rogues would get STR as part of the archetype's class feature.
Also should this be in the Homebrew forum? I wasn't entirely sure about putting this here.
Strength would only be intimidating if someone is afraid of a strong person. That's a very schoolyard approach to the concept. It would make sense in some cases, but not others. You would be incapable of intimidating someone stronger than you, for example, because whatever you do the other guy can do but more-so. It also means you have to be able to do something that shows off your strength; so intimidating someone at a dinner party would probably mean breaking a few tables.
Charisma on the other hand is your strength of personality. You intimidate by striking fear into the other person and have the presence to do so. There are piles of examples of this kind of person out there; Samuel L Jackson's character in Pulp Fiction for example; he's frightening not because he's strong (it doesn't come up) but because he's got a presence about him, a sense of danger, like when he's talking to the robber at the diner. Torturers are also frighteningly intimidating and they aren't generally amazingly strong either (modern era, not the medieval ones with black hoods, heh).
There are options to intimidate through skill; dazzling display comes to mind. This makes more sense that straight strength because you're showing not that you can just crush rocks with your hands but that you know what you're doing with a sword.
I generally think Charisma is a good option. Strength makes sense if you can do something that shows off how strong you are, but in that case the DC should include the other guy's strength. Of course, there's also the problem that a direct physical action doesn't work as well against other who choose direct physical responses. A swashbuckler may not ever fear a strong opponent because he feels speed will always overcome idiot strength. Or a sorcerer with enervate may not be too afraid of the strongman.
So in my games, I run Charisma unless the player can provide me a reason that strength should be allowed in a particular situation. In that case, I may modify the DC formula as well. I guess that means option 1.
Oops. I should finish the part about the Mountain That Rides and Conan.
The Mountain That Rides and Conan the Barbarian ride into a village of peasants and try to intimidate them. "Give us all your money or else!" They flex their huge muscles and give them death glares. The peasants laugh them off. They both have little Charisma and are part of 2 + INT skills classes.
Frodo shows up behind them and says "Give me all your money or else!" For the purposes of this discussion let's say he's a rogue who has decent CHA. The village panics and throws all their money at him while pleading for their lives.
It just doesn't make sense to me.
@MurphysParadox The examples of torturers and Jules from Pulp Fiction are examples of professionals that obviously were taught how to do that. They need that skill for their job. Jules wasn't born instantly intimidating his doctors with his cold fury and strong presence.
You're point about the swashbuckler and the sorcerer is well taken. I would counter in two ways. First, I use that as a justification of why a PC may never intimidate another PC. Second, your reasoning is why they might not be intimidated. Being intimidated by someone or something big and strong is entirely natural. A fighter can outduel a bear but he should still be scared of its power.
But Frodo doesn't say "give me all your money or else". He stares directly into the eyes of the town elder while slowly walking forward. He speaks in a low rasping voice about how he likes very few things in life; gold and cutting little children and honestly at the moment he's 50/50 on which is the best today so it really is up to the elder as to what he would like to happen. The elder cannot look away; his heart beats faster and his breath catches in his throat. He feels something at his side and realizes, at the sound of her whimper, it is his youngest granddaughter moving to hide behind him. He quickly gestures for the townsfolk to give Frodo what he wants. As Frodo rides away with the town's money, the elder hugs his granddaughter tightly.
That's intimidate. Sure, the elder will feel angry and his opinion of Frodo will end up lower than it was originally, but for those 1d6x10 minutes, he would do as he is told because he is absolutely sure that Frodo would have done what he said. It isn't about being able to do it, just making the other guy think he can do it.
With the Mountain and Conan, sure, they are scary folks (Though I'd argue that Conan has a high charisma, we really can't use him because he's a legendary figure). They may be strong, but they don't know how to intimidate. Having muscles doesn't mean you know how to strike fear into someone.
That's another point I didn't address before. Part of the need for Charisma is that it is the "social ability score". Intimidate is part bluff and part sense motive. You can be super strong, but if you don't know how to read someone, how can you scare them? Simply crushing a rock isn't inherently scary, just impressive. Not scary in game terms of causing the person to be "shaken" or to temporarily modify their opinion of you.
With the Mountain and Conan, sure, they are scary folks (Though I'd argue that Conan has a high charisma, we really can't use him because he's a legendary figure). They may be strong, but they don't know how to intimidate. Having muscles doesn't mean you know how to strike fear into someone.
That's another point I didn't address before. Part of the need for Charisma is that it is the "social ability score". Intimidate is part bluff and part sense motive. You can be super strong, but if you don't know how to read someone, how can you scare them? Simply crushing a rock isn't inherently scary, just impressive. Not scary in game terms of causing the person to be "shaken" or to temporarily modify their opinion of you.
My point about the Mountain was that just seeing him is intimidating. The very concept of a 7 ft tall armored hulk staring down at you is scary and he definitely has low CHA. I feel like under this system Godzilla isn't intimidating because he can't read people or make a convincing threat in common.
Let's take the largest Kaiju on the SRD, Agyra. She has no ranks in intimidate and gets no bonus due to size or being a Kaiju. Her base CHA is a respectable 25. That would give her a +7 bonus to her intimidate. A lvl 1 character could beat that with a decent CHA stat, traits, and a feat. Your lvl 1 halfing is more intimidating than a Colossal Monster that shakes the ground with every step and can bring down entire nations.
I don't want to come off as being pointlessly argumentative here. I do see some of your points; it's just that you're the only one who's responded to this.
My point about the Mountain was that just seeing him is intimidating. The very concept of a 7 ft tall armored hulk staring down at you is scary...stuff
Your premise is flawed.
Not everyone is intimidated by large, strong, or hulking people. In fact, I know a lot of large people who are in no way scary. I also know people who are terrified of dogs, including my small breed terriers. This does not mean that terriers are intimidating, it means some people are afraid of them.
People with low charisma are inherently poor at projecting an intimidating prowess, regardless of their strength. People with high Charisma (let's use an early example from AD&D 1e DMG, for example Adolph Hitler) are able to project their force of self quite well. They are intimidating or persuasive, depending upon what they want to accomplish.
A strong person, let's say Arnold Schwarzenegger, is not intimidating simply because he is strong. In fact, I've never heard of anyone in real life saying that Arnie is so strong and big that he is scary. And yet, he became Governor of California through his ability to project his sense of self on other people. He could probably be intimidating if he wished, though, because he has a strong sense of self.
Let's take the largest Kaiju on the SRD, Agyra. She has no ranks in intimidate and gets no bonus due to size or being a Kaiju. Her base CHA is a respectable 25. That would give her a +7 bonus to her intimidate. A lvl 1 character could beat that with a decent CHA stat, traits, and a feat. Your lvl 1 halfing is more intimidating than a Colossal Monster that shakes the ground with every step and can bring down entire nations.
Also, intimidating and terrifying are two different things.
I wouldn't be intimidated by a Kaiju. I would be terrified, probably piss my pants, and either freeze in place or run screaming if I ever witnessed one.
That Kaiju doesn't have to project it's sense of self because it is not trying to make people do what it wants (unless running in terror is what it wants, then that is just an extra special bonus of being incredibly large and terrifying).
My point about the Mountain was that just seeing him is intimidating. The very concept of a 7 ft tall armored hulk staring down at you is scary...stuffYour premise is flawed.
Not everyone is intimidated by large, strong, or hulking people. In fact, I know a lot of large people who are in no way scary. I also know people who are terrified of dogs, including my small breed terriers. This does not mean that terriers are intimidating, it means some people are afraid of them.
People with low charisma are inherently poor at projecting an intimidating prowess, regardless of their strength. People with high Charisma (let's use an early example from AD&D 1e DMG, for example Adolph Hitler) are able to project their force of self quite well. They are intimidating or persuasive, depending upon what they want to accomplish.
A strong person, let's say Arnold Schwarzenegger, is not intimidating simply because he is strong. In fact, I've never heard of anyone in real life saying that Arnie is so strong and big that he is scary. And yet, he became Governor of California through his ability to project his sense of self on other people. He could probably be intimidating if he wished, though, because he has a strong sense of self.
You're saying that if Arnie in his prime (Terminator, Conan) walked up to you with a mean look on his face and towered over you, you wouldn't be intimidated at all? I'm not even saying this as a 4'11" weakling. I'm 6' 2" and I'd be scared.
My premise isn't that a small person couldn't be intimidating through force of will. It's that they have to train and practice before accomplishing that. Being big and flexing your muscles is so basic that it should be the natural assumption rather than something to be trained.
Picture a mob boss threatening someone into submission. He's scary, intelligent, and ruthless. That's intimidating, right? In your picture, does even have a couple of goons crossing their arms and looking tough? Probably does. A real mob boss probably would. Big guys with big weapons is naturally intimidating.
Also, intimidating and terrifying are two different things.
Let's take the largest Kaiju on the SRD, Agyra. She has no ranks in intimidate and gets no bonus due to size or being a Kaiju. Her base CHA is a respectable 25. That would give her a +7 bonus to her intimidate. A lvl 1 character could beat that with a decent CHA stat, traits, and a feat. Your lvl 1 halfing is more intimidating than a Colossal Monster that shakes the ground with every step and can bring down entire nations.
You do demonstrate the correct reaction to a Kaiju and I probably mirror it. That's because it intimidates me by its sheer presence.
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You're saying that if Arnie in his prime (Terminator, Conan) walked up to you with a mean look on his face and towered over you, you wouldn't be intimidated at all? I'm not even saying this as a 4'11" weakling. I'm 6' 2" and I'd be scared.
No, he's saying if Arnold was just standing there curling 150 pound barbells, you would not be Shaken. If he walked up and towered over you, he'd be making an intimidate check. He's not towering because he's strong, he's not towering because he's 8 feet tall. He's "towering" because his presence is so strong that he makes you feel shorter than you are. That's charisma.
Remember, we're talking about the ability score used. Adding strength mod to a skill roll isn't used just because you have muscles, you have to use those muscles to justify the reason you're adding the stat to the 1d20 roll. Flexing them doesn't count.
I'd also argue in the case of Agyra. I wouldn't say that thing is going to be doing much 'intimidating'. It will simply go straight to 'murder everything'. Intimidating is using the threat of force to get what you want, not actually using force.
It ia also important to distinguish intimidating from terrifying. If somebody is intimidating, the thought goint through other people's heads is "I better do what he wants or he will kill me". If somebody is merely terrifying, the thought going through their heads is "I better get away from him because if I don't he will kill me whether or not I do as he demands". Only in the former case does the big hulking brute have any control over other people's behavior.
They are the same thing.
Context matters, which is why we use different words to mean different things.
I'm not sure if you are purposefully being obtuse or you don't honestly understand what everyone else in the thread, myself included, are trying to convey.
Either way, I'm out.
I see your Mountain and raise it to Hodor. Hodor is strong. Hodor is not scary. He probably has enough negative charisma to completely counter any strength bonus, and of course no skills at all in intimidation. Most people laugh at Hodor or believe him safe.
Who has intimidation though? Tywin. Cercei. Ramsay. Probably tons of others, but what they have in common is Charisma. Training matters of course... it is the most significant factor.
The Mountain never used intimidation skill on anyone in the series, as far as I am concerned. He was scary simply because of his towering menace, and his will and ability to kill people. However I would say his brother (the Hound) had more ability to scare people, and would be more likely to do so instead of simply relying on strength.
You do raise some valid points though - strength and especially size matters. A simple fix is to add circumstance bonuses:
-Character is significantly (4 or more points) stronger than the target +2
-Character is taller +1Size modifier already exist too, and I would probably give the Mountain the Half Giant ability of counting as Large size when beneficial, giving him a +4 on all Intimidate checks. That, combined with the fact that It's a class skill, and that he is probably quite high-level, he should be able to get a really high Intimidate score if he actually maxed it. And what other skills does he need?
Tywin is a perfect example of how CHA can be used as a base for Intimidation but even he needs his attack dog to back up his threats. When you say "give me your money or else Greg here is gonna mess you up" isn't Greg the one being intimidating with his muscles?
Hodor is obviously mentally retarded (or is it challenged?) and therefore probably wouldn't intimidate most people. Unless he started charging at you with anger in his eyes (assume Bran is warging him). Still pretty scary. Hodor's case argues for someone with his condition receiving a penalty rather than the whole system being based off his though.
I like your idea about size modifier. I'd expand it by saying that the Halfling fearless trait makes them immune to this. Though unfortunately the Mountain's low Charisma would still hamstring his intimidation. He is a serious dick and not very pretty so he'd probably have a 7 CHA for -2 penalty. Your solution cancels out this penalty but means he gets no stat boost to his skill. Let's just say his STR is 22 for a +6 bonus. He loses out on all of that unless he pays a feat tax. I argue that he's a barbarian (as opposed to his brother who would be a fighter) so he doesn't have an extra feats to spare.
@MurphysParadox in my limited experience with Kaiju movies, there's usually a moment where the monster shows up and roars at the sky. Then again that's usually for other Kaiju rather than the gnome sorcerer sling spells at him. I'd allow a special ability that makes demoralize checks just from feeling her create a miniature earthquake every time she walks.
To be fair, if there's a giant dude with a giant sword coming at me, they don't need to roll intimidate to scare me. I'm probably going to run and hide, even if they didn't inflict a Frightened status mechanically.
You can threaten people in the form of 2d6+lots of damage, easily.
It's the guy that wants to bend people to his will without drawing a weapon that uses the skill Intimidate.
To be fair, if there's a giant dude with a giant sword coming at me, they don't need to roll intimidate to scare me. I'm probably going to run and hide, even if they didn't inflict a Frightened status mechanically.
You can threaten people in the form of 2d6+lots of damage, easily.
It's the guy that wants to bend people to his will without drawing a weapon that uses the skill Intimidate.
You're right, that was a bad example.
Drawing a weapon helps is my point. Saying "I'm going to kill you if you don't let me pass" is more effective with a sword to someone's throat.
The Mountain and Conan are intimidating because they took Intimidating Prowess and learned how to leverage their muscles and physique into an otherwise intimidating presentation. That, and they probably spent a couple of skill points as well; even 1 skill point is enough for +4 if it's a class skill for them. So a Cha of 7 is worth -2 but a single skill point makes up for it and then some. To illustrate, our 16 Cha con man with 1 point in Intimidate gets +7 to the check while Conan with 7 Cha and 1 point in intimidate gets +2 to the check. 20 Str with Intimidating Prowess (which Conan most certainly has) will make up the difference. Meanwhile, Hodor can't hold a candle to our con man because no only does he lack confidence and the know-how of leveraging physique into his threats, he never even took that single skill point. And Major Armstrong, while he never put a single point into Intimidate, has the Strength and Charisma and you know he knows how to leverage his physique to his advantage... with this artistic body sculpting technique that has been passed down in the Armstrong family for generations. And lets not even mention Teal'c who just has to sit across the table from you and stare, silently, until you crack; no words or threats or flexing necessary.
I don't know if the Mountain or Conan had to learn how to leverage their impressive physique into being intimidating. Anyone of appropriate physique can stand next to someone and flex their muscles or hold gigantic friggin' sword over their head.
The con man in your example would have them beat in intimidation without really trying is my point. He gets the same class skill bonus as Conan and can take the same feats. The difference is stats and it may not seem like much but the six point difference between -2 and +4 can make or break a check. Even a four point difference can give you an edge.
Hodor can't even speak so that's not really fair. I don't think he's an appropriate example for the reason I mentioned before.
I don't know Major Armstrong enough to comment. I know he's from an anime but I haven't watched it. I also haven't seen Stargate and had to look up where Teal'c came from.
I want to make this point 100% clear because I feel like people are ignoring it. I completely understand why a physically weak person with a forceful personality can be intimidating. I just feel that this style of intimidation comes from training whereas being big and flexing muscles are basic enough to not require any training. The system of CHA being natural and STR requiring a feat is backwards.
If you think CHA is natural and requires no training (and I don't mean four years of college here; learning on the streets like a rogue is good enough) then I disagree but that's fine. Hence why I proposed the other two options.
But if intimidate is based on strength, speech is unnecessary. Literally all you do is flex your muscles and BAM people fear you! You don't act menacingly, that would be Charisma. You don't get to say anything, that's Charisma. You can't even look them in the eye because that is a contest of wills which is Charisma. You're saying that simply flexing your muscles or crushing a rock in your fist is enough to make people so afraid that they have -2 on all attacks and saving throws. I don't buy it.
I want to make this point 100% clear because I feel like people are ignoring it. I completely understand why a physically weak person with a forceful personality can be intimidating. I just feel that this style of intimidation comes from training whereas being big and flexing muscles are basic enough to not require any training. The system of CHA being natural and STR requiring a feat is backwards.
Precisely the point I am trying to make (partially). The person with a forceful personality is trained in intimidation, that's his skill ranks. He creates doubt in his victims.
The person holding a sword over someone's head is presenting simple mathematics to them. They have no option but to submit (unless they have an ace in their sleeve, in which case they have no reason to be scared by your brute threat).
If you hold a sword at a guard's throat, you're readying an action to attack unless they do what you say, not rolling Intimidate.
I disagree, Tywin does not need a henchmen to make other people feel insecure or threatened. He could as easily do this during a ball, while being unarmed, and probably even if he didn't have the power to execute people. His daughter, being much less skilled, does generally need this.
Hodor might have additional penalties for being retarded, but extremely low charisma might be fitting for someone retarded in the first place (never go full retard!).
Ok let's go through the Mountain. Let's say since he's official the most badass warrior in Westeros, he's the equivalent of a 10th level Fighter (possibly with some barb thrown in, but not necessarily). Ever since he was a "wee" child he has been stronger and meaner than everyone, so it's not unlikely Intimidate was his very first skill, and he has kept that up - he is a leader of men and this seems to be his only social skill.
His charisma is probably not high, but you don't have to be pretty or likable to have charisma - Any major demon/devil can show you that. His force of personality is slim though, and he doesn't speak or even use much body language, so I guess anywhere from 7 to 10 is appropriate.
So 10 ranks, 3 trained, 2 strength, 4 height and -2 cha = +17. That's pretty damn good! He would automatically Intimidate a 7th level character with 13 wisdom. He has a 50% chance to intimidate a 16th level character! That's pretty damn scary in my book. And all of this is IF he hasn't spent one of his many feats to intimidate even more.
I disagree that Gregor is a fighter. I think his brother is a fighter and Gregor is a Barbarian. Check out the fight between in them in season/book one for why I think so.
Yes, a character with low charisma can get a high intimidate through feats and stuff but they shouldn't have to jump through all these hoops to do something someone in real life can doing without any training.
The Tywin/Cersei divide you mentioned encapsulates my point. He is trained and practiced in this art and she isn't. Hence she relies on the Hound or the Kingsguard to do her intimidating. I don't know if pointing to someone and saying "they'll mess you up, bro" is an intimidation check on your point or their part. I would think that it would be on their part. If I point to a Chihuahua in that instance, it doesn't matter how well I phrase it. Pointing to the Mountain is far different.
@Petty Alchemy The skill ranks representing the training is interesting to me. I admit I never thought of it like that.
Holding a sword to someone's throat and demanding the key to a door is still an intimidation check. You are readying an action but you're still making the threat. I could just walk up to a guard and hold a sword to his throat without saying anything. It wouldn't be an intimidate check.
@MurphysParadox You can't see why someone would be unnerve by the Hulk flex his muscles and staring them down. That precise situation is how demoralize checks work in combat. You can be menacingly without a CHA check.
There's more to it than Strength or Charisma. Pointing a gun at a hostage's face ought to have a positive effect on your Intimidate roll if the hostage has reason to believe that you'll pull the trigger. This can be supplied by Charisma, or it can be supplied by shooting another hostage in the face. Stats aren't everything.
For situations like that, I generally make heavy circumstantial bonuses (say, +8 for shooting the other hostage in the face) that outweigh any contribution from Charisma.
In the case of someone not completely at your mercy, the argument for Strength is that Strength implies that you're a threat--that you'll certainly and effectively harm the target if he does not comply. But Strength is not the only way to present yourself as a threat, and neither is Charisma. Charisma is particularly good at it, since it can imply threat where no apparent threat exists through sheer force of personality. Strength only works if the situation makes Strength the deciding factor. If you've got a crossbow trained on the target from fifty paces, Dexterity might be a better factor--or it might not factor in at all if the target has more than enough hit points to survive a few bolts.
To keep things simple, the system sticks with Charisma and leaves it to the GM to apply circumstantial bonuses or penalties based on conditions. I once argued in favor of a system that explicitly accounted for "obvious threat" situations like shooting the other hostage, but since then I've decided that such a system would just be too verbose and unnecessary given that GMs have wide latitude to adjust DCs and apply modifiers.
If someone holds a sword to me and says unless I give them the keys, they will chop my head off, they don't need to roll intimidate.
Let's say they do though and they have a poor charisma, and roll poorly. They roll a 5, which with their Cha penalty becomes a 3. Not very intimidating. So what does that look like? They mess up the words? "GIVE ME THE BEES, ER, I MEAN KEYS".
I'm not going to laugh at them. I'm going to give them the damn keys, because they're holding a sword to me. Unless I knew my ally was about to take them out.
Now if this guy is good at intimidation, he could say something like "I know what you're thinking. 'Can my partner shoot this guy before he guts me like a pig'. Well, I'm the best there is. Your friend makes a move, and you'll be the pin cushion. Now give me the keys and you both get to walk away."
I think the issue here, Larkos, is that your opinion on what 'Strength' and what 'Charisma' mean is at odds with what they mean in Pathfinder.
You keep saying that a strong person is an intimidating person because they are strong. But when asked for examples, you talk about how they look, or how they loom over you, or how they stare at you. Strength isn't an appearance trait, it is a capability trait. The actions you state are creepy because of the person's presence, not their muscles.
When I worked at a furniture store, the stock room guy looked like Moby, stood 5'6", and was overall a spindly. He could also throw furniture around like any two other guys. He would pull down 250 pound boxes from the second level shelves and not crush himself or damage the box. I think his muscles were replaced by steel cables in a mysterious government experiment... Anyway, he was amazingly strong without having the appearance of being strong.
He couldn't intimidate anyone even if he could hurl a table across the room just as well as someone twice his size. He had a very low charisma; not much presence.
Your argument that 'Conan should be able to intimidate better than a halfling' is flawed. You assume Conan has a low Charisma. But the fact that you think Conan should be able to do this is because Conan is an impressive individual... because he has a high Charisma. He is a warlord, he is a peerless fighter, he strikes fear into men by his mere presence. That's all "high charisma".
A generic goon could well use his size to intimidate others. But when the people he tries to scare also have weapons and confidence in their skill it makes strength seem less significant. Put another way, how scary is a bar bouncer to someone who just fought a purple worm?
I'm no longer responding to things like the first part of your post because I repeatedly stated that I understand that a physically unimpressive person can be intimidating through sheer force of personality
The quoted part, however, I see the logic to. I would counter that those people would get a counter-intimidate or have more experience (measured in WIS) that would allow them to resist intimidation. Of course The Cleganes aren't intimidating Gandalf but that's because Gandalf is really high level (I mean, c'mon. He soloed a freakin' Balrog).
There's also the PC argument. I'm pretty sure one PC cannot intimidate, bluff, sense motive, diplomacy, etc. another PC because it's unenforceable. You have to do that through roleplay rather than rollplay.
I'm not 100% sure if an NPC can do that to a PC though...
The more I think about this it seems like this whole system just has too many warring abuses and justifications. I can certainly see why Paizo wouldn't want to touch this (see the threads I mentioned back in my initial post.)
@MurphysParadox I used Conan as an example because of his build, recognizibility, and definite D&D class (right there in the name.) I didn't mean to say that Conan the character necessarily has low Charisma. The Mountain is really a better example because he definitely does but I understand that not everyone has seen/read GoT/aSoIaF.
Your SuperMoby co-worker seems kinda like an outlier especially in a fantasy setting where someone with 24 STR would look more like Conan than Moby.
I do still see your point. Your point and others have softened my original stance of replacing the intimidate rules outright. I am asking here for variant rules like the Armor as DR system. That way we can both have rules for our positions.
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In a home brew game, anything is allowed if the GM is cool with it.
There are two intimidate actions: (1) Apply shaken to a target for 1 round + 1 round per 5 points by which you surpass their DC (10 + their level + their wisdom bonus). (2) Over the course of at least one minute of conversation you can temporarily, for 1d6x10 minutes, make the NPC friendly and willing to assist you but after which they drop down further than their original position on the interaction chart.
As a home brew rule set, I would say that any player may add Strength or Charisma to option (1). There is no special feat, there's no choosing at character creation, there's no class specific division. The target must be able to perceive you and you must be able to physically act (so if you're tied up, it is pitch darkness, for example, would preclude this option).
Option (2) would still have to be Charisma only because it has to do with impressing upon the target during a conversation all the ways they should fear upsetting you more than they should fear whatever will happen if they help you.
That's how I would run it.
In a home brew game, anything is allowed if the GM is cool with it.
There are two intimidate actions: (1) Apply shaken to a target for 1 round + 1 round per 5 points by which you surpass their DC (10 + their level + their wisdom bonus). (2) Over the course of at least one minute of conversation you can temporarily, for 1d6x10 minutes, make the NPC friendly and willing to assist you but after which they drop down further than their original position on the interaction chart.
As a home brew rule set, I would say that any player may add Strength or Charisma to option (1). There is no special feat, there's no choosing at character creation, there's no class specific division. The target must be able to perceive you and you must be able to physically act (so if you're tied up, it is pitch darkness, for example, would preclude this option).
Option (2) would still have to be Charisma only because it has to do with impressing upon the target during a conversation all the ways they should fear upsetting you more than they should fear whatever will happen if they help you.
That's how I would run it.
That's interesting. I appreciate the flexibility that your options provide.
Intimidate and Diplomacy, in my mind, are about spending the time to alter someone's opinion of you. They are not what generate the first impression. That, I believe, is not well codified. I believe PC's have a certain confidence that would prevent an initial reaction of fear from encountering the Mountain. They would likely be very cautious, but not physically shaken. A commoner, on the other hand, would likely pick up the shaken condition on first sight of the mountain, whether it is because of physical stature, or reputation. Now, if the Mountain started lining up peasants and hacking them down, that would of course increase the levels of fear, but that is not due to the Mountain's ability to intimidate (through force of will), but due to seeing peers get brought down by the beast with not a hint of remorse, similar to a crushing defeat in battle. Again, no real mechanics on this, all just GM fiat.
(I would, however, likely consider the Mountain 'Large' mechanically if he did try to intimidate, which would grant him +4 on the check)