Alt computer and engineering skills


Homebrew


After my first game, it quickly became clear that computers and engineering skills were a little too redundant. With no guide to help characters stay in their lane, we were kinda tripping over each other. My Mechanic felt kinda useless.

So I proposed this to my GM...

Split Engineering...
  Mechanics (untrained - Class skill Envoy, Mechanic, Operative, Soldier, Technowizard) - Repair vehicles or tiny and small ships, detect/disable traps, craft/repair general tech

  Electrical Engineering - (trained - Class skill Mechanic, Technowizard) Perform engineer actions on large+ ships, craft/repair starship tech + robots

  Weapons Engineering (trained - Class skill Mechanic, Operative, Soldier, Technowizard) - Craft/repair weapons, arm/disarm explosives, can be used for gunnery checks

Split computers...

  Computer Operation  (untrained - Class skill Envoy, Mechanic, Operative, Soldier Technowizard) - Access unsecured system, Bypass electronic locks, forgery

  Computer Coding (trained, Clsss skill Mechanic, Operative, Technowizard) - All other computer actions

New skill to encourage characters to take something else. Just because it's the future doesn't mean EVERYONE knows computers and engineering.

  Weapons Training (trained - Class skill Operative, Envoy, Soldier) - repair weapon in specified group, +1 hit per 2 ranks in skill


He countered with a much simpler solution...

In order to be able to do anything more complex with Computers, Engineering, or Medicine than general knowledge, accessing unsecured systems, basic repair, or first aid, you have to spend at least 1 rank in an appropriate Profession.


Doesn't seem very over-lapping to me. Engineering is used to build hardware. Computers is used to program software. Bam, done.

Grand Lodge

These skills didn't seem useful enough, so you... divided their uses by two or three and then made an extremely powerful new skill to compete with them?

Your GM's solution is simpler, but is also about making them less useful (or literally useless, in that they can't be used).

"These skills aren't useful enough; let's make them cost double," is a set of reasoning I can't follow.


JediJabroni wrote:
After my first game, it quickly became clear that computers and engineering skills were a little too redundant. With no guide to help characters stay in their lane, we were kinda tripping over each other. My Mechanic felt kinda useless.

Whilst I disagree with your solution, and your GM's, I understand your sentiments. However I believe it more an overall system problem than one with the skills.

I made an Envoy, whose role was to be Captain on our starship. For whatever reason this means needing to be really, really good at Diplomacy, Intimidate (or Bluff, but it is less versatile), Computers, and Engineering to the same degree as every crew member. I later perused the Operative and saw +1-+6 to every skill. That's on par with all the skill bonuses of the other classes, with the exception of the Mystic's +7 to their 2 special skills, and the Envoy's 1d6-1d8+4 to their selected expeetise skills. When one class with no need for investment can do what you can (and in most cases better) you automatically tend to feel redundant. Added the skill points numbers, Envoy and Operative are the only 8+Int classes, and then the Operative gets +2 skills at max rank on top of it. A max Int Mechanic gets 4+4, which is the same as the Technomancer. I get they're both Int-based classes so they should be hovering around that 8 per level but yeah... It's easy to feel overshadowed when there's obvious power disparities like that.

Of course, that's just the topic of skills. Operative's 2 free Skill Focuses with a Skill Focus redundancy ability compared to a specific mechanic build's one? You have a class that can do anything the other classes can do, but better. And unlike the Envoy, they have abilities outside of just their skills.

So I understand, but the problem is less with the skills, and more with class abilities and balance. If an Envoy wanted to be an engineering character, they could specialize better than the Mechanic. An Operative with one feat can literally replace any other character role skill-wise. Making additional skills would hurt the non-skill classes significantly more than it would balance the skill characters.


1. Agreed wtih Isaac Zephyr

2. You shouldn't start splitting up skills or adding more without considering whether the classes need more skill points to cover appropriately.


JediJabroni wrote:
After my first game, it quickly became clear that computers and engineering skills were a little too redundant. With no guide to help characters stay in their lane, we were kinda tripping over each other. My Mechanic felt kinda useless.

It usually takes more than one game to understand a game so it's kind of frowned upon to change things right off the bat. I also wouldn't use the word "redundant" to describe "computers/engineering" skills in a future setting game. What was redundant was having 40 skills in pathfinder when you only needed about 20 to do everything. I think you are meta thinking too much. Typically you think of a character to play, create a back story and then build the character. Yes you talk with other players in your group and say, "Let's not make two mechanics." to avoid "redundancies". But your character should be able to act on it's own because you character existed before joining the group. If you look at space combat there are a lot of skills that do multiple things on a ship. So if you split up the skills you are making the skills weaker and you might not be able to perform another role if you need too.

Have you gotten to space combat yet?

JediJabroni wrote:
Mechanics (untrained - Class skill Envoy, Mechanic, Operative, Soldier, Technowizard) - Repair vehicles or tiny and small ships, detect/disable traps, craft/repair general tech

Repairing vehicles untrained is hard. Disabling traps when you aren't familiar with the trap is hard. I wouldn't use this.

JediJabroni wrote:
New skill to encourage characters to take something else. Just because it's the future doesn't mean EVERYONE knows computers and engineering.

That's why it's not a class skill for everyone. Not EVERYONE knows how to use computers.

Class that doesn't get computers: Mystic, Solarian, and Soldier.

Class that doesn't get engineering: Mystic and Solarian.

You don't get a lot of class skills in this game. That's why they cut the skills you can get in half. Turn to page 500 and check out the comparison between pathfinder and starfinder skills.

JediJabroni wrote:
Weapons Training (trained - Class skill Operative, Envoy, Soldier) - repair weapon in specified group, +1 hit per 2 ranks in skill

Weapon Focus gives you a plus +1 (+2 depending on things). If you want to give a bonus to repair weapons just give them that then making the players waste a skill point on a skill that is very limited.

JediJabroni wrote:

He countered with a much simpler solution...

In order to be able to do anything more complex with Computers, Engineering, or Medicine than general knowledge, accessing unsecured systems, basic repair, or first aid, you have to spend at least 1 rank in an appropriate Profession.

I didn't read this before I wrote my reply. I'm glad you guys didn't change the skills.


Not sure where some of you guys were getting that I said they weren't useful enough. I said they were redundant, which wasn't the right word either. They were so broad they overlapped too much. Isaac got what I was trying to say.

Though yeah, splitting them was too overcomplicated. Adding just one more skill to invest points in and establish your professional focus helped a lot, so we weren't all thinking we could do the same thing.

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