Banshee Wail - sonic damage?

[wizardmark]

There is debate within one group I play in whether or not a Banshee's Wail is Sonic damage. It never explicitly states that it's sonic damage, but does state its a "sonic death effect" (and one could logically infer sonic). It also references the 9th level spell, which again, though listed as sonic descriptor, never states the type of damage in the description.

Thoughts?

[Asmodeus' Advocate]

Is it really a debate though? There isn't much point arguing what the rules are as written, when everyone knows what the rules intend.

[Kayerloth]

Sonic descriptor means it is sonic damage is my understanding. I agree it doesn't explicit say so but I think I'm safe in saying that would be the opinion of the vast and overwhelming majority as well. Same reason a Fireball has the descriptor of (fire), Lightning Bolt (electricity), Fire Shield (fire or cold), etc.. It says how other spells and effects interact with the spell. So yes Resist or Protection from Energy would have an effect vs Wail of the Banshee if you chose Sonic as the energy type as would Death Ward.

[wraithstrike]

It has the sonic subtype so I'd say it counts as sonic.

[Yossarian]

The paizo online PRD lists it as sonic in the descriptor. So fairly obviously it's sonic damage.

Specifically, listed as:

School: necromancy [death, sonic].

I've always used this as Death AND Sonic combined. So the spell has all the benefits and constraints of both descriptors simultaneously.

For example: Death Ward would work against it. And so would 'Protection from Energy - sonic'.

[Val'bryn2]

I'd argue the point, it's not the sound that's damaging you, it's the fact that your soul is being ripped out through your ears.

[Dave Justus]

It is untyped damage. The sonic descriptor does not make it sonic damage.

Basically it is a death effect transmitted via sound.

[merpius]

I agree with Dave Justus; the damage itself is untyped. It does have the sonic descriptor, so certain other affects coudl affect it (like an area under a silence spell, which is even covered in the Banshee's wail effect).

It also has the death descriptor, but that doesn't mean it is "death" damage. You can have spells that do no damage at all that have sonic, fire, cold, etc. descriptors; they are a seperate mechanic from the type of damage something does. And, in fact, there are even spells that do damage with such a descriptor, that don't do, at least entirely, the damage type associated with the descriptor.

Pretty sure it would have to mention the actual damage being of a particular energy type for the damage to be of that type.

[Bjørn Røyrvik]

By legacy and description it is, as Dave pointed out, a death effect transmitted via sound. It used to be SoD but with PF nerfing the hell out of most killing spells, it became untyped damage, like Destruction, Finger of Death, Slay Living, etc.

ER/Prot.En. - sonic would not work. It's not extremely energetic vibrations in the air that kill you, it's the supernatural quality that directly targets your lifeforce.

[Cavall]

And yet... being a bard would help.

[wraithstrike]

I misread the OP's questions. I think the sonic subtype in this case means it has to be heard so a silence spell should stop it.

On a related note in PF2 I think I'll ask the Paizo team to go into detail on these subtypes. For the most part they're obvious, but for cases like this it could cause problems assuming spells still have subtypes.

[Yossarian]

Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:

By legacy and description it is, as Dave pointed out, a death effect transmitted via sound. It used to be SoD but with PF nerfing the hell out of most killing spells, it became untyped damage, like Destruction, Finger of Death, Slay Living, etc.

ER/Prot.En. - sonic would not work. It's not extremely energetic vibrations in the air that kill you, it's the supernatural quality that directly targets your lifeforce.

I disagree with that interpretation. Since a death effect is transmitted by sound, I conclude that protection from sound will help. RAI trumping RA-ambiguously-W, if you like.

I feel the RAW is inconclusive / vague, and allows for multiple interpretations. I went with that one. I won't say anyone who interprets it differently is 'wrong', the spell description leaves several possible interpretations on the table.

This interpretation also improves gameplay imho, since PCs have options to counter it, and Wail is a terribly powerful spell.

Each GM to their own. Hopefully as said, with PF2 paizo will be more consistent in how they list damage types. As in, always list damage type(s) and in a standard format. I suspect they will but we'll see. Right now they have for example "Vampiric Exsanguination that lists: Death / Necromancy / Negative'". I'm curious to read the PF 2 magic section to see how Paizo wants us to interpret that in edge case situations.

[merpius]

I don't think RAW is inconclusive or vague WRT whether it is sonic energy damage; it isn't, since it doesn't say it is. It is clearly untyped damage. It says: "inflicting 10 points of damage per caster level" not "inflicting 10 points of sonic damage per caster level"

Now, that said, things like silence or similar are absolutely protection against this (it does have the sonic descriptor, after all) as are things that protect against death effects. Something that specifically protected against sonic effects (regardless of whether it protected against sonic energy damage) would also help.

RAI, however can be whatever you want (or, rather, whatever the table agrees to).

As for how powerful it is; it is a 9th level spell. It doesn't seem to me to be more powerful than, for example, Wish, Meteor Storm, Tsunami, or Clashing Rocks. It does allow a Fort save to negate; most of those others only allow the save to reduce the effect. Plus, a lowly 2nd level spell counters the Wail of the Banshee spell (though not the actual wail of an actual banshee)

[Yossarian]

merpius wrote:

I don't think RAW is inconclusive or vague WRT whether it is sonic energy damage; "

Now, that said, things like silence or similar are absolutely protection against this

The existence of this thread suggests otherwise :)

The inconsintency - that silence would stop it put protection from energy - sonic would not is the reason I personally went with my RAI interpretation.

Summary: ambiguous. Hopefully PF2 formalises their format to avoid this kind of thing in future.

[Mallecks]

I don't see how it is inconsistent for the effect to be nullified by silence but not protection from energy. They are completely separate things. Silence says they are immune to sonic effects. The other prevents sonic damage.

Let's say I have Magical Lineage(Wail of the Banshee) and use Elemental Spell to change the untyped damage to Fire damage. It will still be blocked by Silence, but not Protection from Energy(Sonic).